The 11/27/23 is where I lean towards. Little seems to justify the loss of dual Sword Spec procs, Blade Fury, and WE (1) for 200AP from Deadliness (variable). Equally, I find it hard to give up the energy return of relentless strikes. 500More AP wouldn't help you if you don't get to actually use it due to lack of energy. 10% AP boost will not recover the damage lost from being able to use an ability 10% less of the time. That's not the direct translation of the energy lost, but conceptually, that's the gist of it.

...time to bury my face in my spreadsheets again. I'll try to work out a comparison of hemo/sword spec vs. combat swords soon.

I'm currently running a 11/20/30 build on the PTR and am enjoying it.
I'm running a 11/27/23 build on live, and am also enjoying it...

I don't see the point of a 3/28/30 build. :P

My original idea with 11/20/30 is that WEx no longer does that dodgy +3% hit against some mobs, but rather just gives -1.25/2.5% dodge. And that can be made up for with the sudden surplus of +exp gear. Whereas an extra 10% AP from all buffs is purely talent related.

Sword spec is roughly an extra 5% damage and no longer procs on procs.
So ya, I'm thinking an 11/20/30 build might work quite well.
*shrug* Will find out in when 2.3 hits live i suspect.

Quick question, does anyone know if Hemo debuff charges are consumed on non-landed attacks?

Well, after seeing the hemo change, there is one key change that just might tip the scales of this builds.

The Dirty Deeds change.

20% special damage on targets below 35% hp is a good deal.

The build would probably have to be a bit awkward...Probably:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft



(Haven't done the math on 1 point in new WEx vs 1 in the new DD yet, but seems plausibly better. ~5% dps for last 3rd of fight.)


However, another thing that is worth looking into with hemo is whether fist spec could be better, considering that crits give double the extra hemo damage, and fists will crit more often.

If hemo is still not normalized, the max possiblity of getting the most out of your personal dps isnt going to be realized with a 2.7 weapon speed. So either a sword spec with warglaives or more reachable weapon a Syphon of Naztherim(sp) woud be better, as they are 2.8 speed. This would allow a 11/27/23 build with Mace Spec, BF, 1/2 Expertise and the new Dirty Deeds.

Before the 10 charge limit, hemo had a 30 charge limit so it was ideal to stack haste and a fast OH to use up charges. With the change haste would still be important but to help the other melee maybe a rod of the sun king in the OH to go with a Syphon for a poor mans Combat Potency. I know the proc rate is under 1 ppm as i had .8 with 20m of testing but there would be no better OH and would allow faster hemo strikes to help the charges stay up longer

I dont have a spreadsheet and i dont do math well but this would seem the best way to max your DPS and your raids at the same time, or i could be very wrong.

I modeled the new Hemorrhage in my personal DPS spreadsheet using the following method:

- Using the cycle calculations in my sheet to produce an average number of special attacks performed per second, I multiplied this by 10 to figure out the average number of Hemo charges available for consumption per second.
- I then assumed some rough average figures for the individuals in the raid who would be consuming the Hemo debuff. These were 30% crit and 85% chance to land an attack. I also assumed that attacks that don't land don't consume Hemo charges. If this is wrong, please correct me and I'll fix my modeling.
- I multiplied the effect of these factors against the 36 damage provided per Hemo charge, times the number of Hemo charges available per second, to arrive at a bonus DPS estimate.
- This estimate was then added into the global DPS estimate for the build.

The gear assumed as a base for personal DPS is my own, as visible in my Armory. The following specs were considered:

1) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - Combat swords with [Talon of Azshara] and [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]
2) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - Combat daggers with [Fang of Vashj] and [Merciless Gladiator's Shiv]
3) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 11/28/22, 2/2 W.Ex., 1/2 Dirty Deeds, [Talon of Azshara], [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]
4) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 11/27/23, 1/2 W.Ex., 2/2 Dirty Deeds, same weapons
5) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 11/28/22, 2/2 W.Ex., 1/2 Dirty Deeds, [Dragonstrike], [Merciless Gladiator's Bonecracker]
6) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 11/28/22, 2/2 W.Ex., 1/2 Dirty Deeds, [Syphon of the Nathrezim], [Merciless Gladiator's Bonecracker]
7) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 11/28/22, 2/2 W.Ex., 1/2 Dirty Deeds, [Syphon of the Nathrezim], [Rod of the Sun King]
8) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 11/20/30, [Talon of Azshara], [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]
9) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 11/20/30, [Dragonstrike], [Merciless Gladiator's Bonecracker]

Also note that for all sword- or mace-based builds, 2s/5r was used as the cycle (and it did turn out to be optimal for all the builds in question), while for the dagger build, 1s/3r was used.

---

1) Using my standard gear and build, my theoretical DPS output is 1443.40.
2) Using combat daggers with the Fang/Shiv combo, my theoretical output is 1399.27. This is a decrease of 44.13 DPS (-3.06%). Note that this difference does not account for the additional loss of Murder on mobs that are Murder-able. The difference should actually be more like 5%.
3) The hemo/swords build with 2/2 W.Ex. and 1/2 Dirty Deeds gives a theoretical output of 1485.16 after the Hemo debuff. This is an increase of 41.77 (+2.89%) over the combat swords build. Note that Dirty Deeds is simply modeled as a 10% increase per point on special damage 35% of the time (thus it is slightly overvalued).
4) The hemo/swords build with 1/2 W.Ex. and 2/2 Dirty Deeds gives a theoretical output of 1484.44 after the Hemo debuff. This is an increase of 41.04 (+2.84%) over the combat swords build. Recall that Dirty Deeds is slightly overvalued; even still, trading one point of Weapon Expertise for one point of Dirty Deeds is found to be suboptimal. From now on, therefore, we shall only consider builds with 2/2 W.Ex. and 1/2 Dirty Deeds.
5) Using that build, then, with [Dragonstrike] and [Merciless Gladiator's Bonecracker] and mace spec, gives a theoretical DPS output of 1442.97. This is a decrease of 0.42 (-0.03%) from the combat swords build.
6) Instead using [Syphon of the Nathrezim] as a main hand increases the theoretical output to 1443.05. This is a decrease of 0.34 (-0.02%) relative to the combat swords build. Note that the "upgrade" to the slower Syphon barely matters because of the strength of Dragonstrike itself. Speed is not necessarily the end-all be-all here.
7) Per the second in a post above mine, switching in a [Rod of the Sun King] for an offhand results in a theoretical DPS output of 1425.79. This is a loss of 17.61 (-1.22%) DPS relative to the combat swords build. The energy granted by the Rod is more than offset by the huge drop in DP uptime.
8) Switching builds to 11/20/30 with swords results in a theoretical output of 1481.81. This is an increase of 38.41 (+2.66%) over the combat swords build.
9) Finally, trying 11/20/30 with maces results in a theoretical output of 1481.50. This is an increase of 38.11 (+2.64%) over the combat swords build.

Conclusions: 11/28/22 swords may very well be quite competitive with combat swords for DPS. It certainly might not be a bad investment to have one Hemo rogue in a raid, depending on quite a lot of factors of your physical DPS classes, including their crit rates, abilities used, and armor penetration. 11/20/30 will be slightly inferior to 11/28/22 with swords, but for other weapon types, it will be superior. Finally, 2/2 Weapon Expertise is likely more important and a higher priority for any combat/sub hybrid build than 2/2 Dirty Deeds.

(edit) Additionally, it does seem that 2.6 is sufficient speed for Hemo to function, even though it's not what we would normally consider "slow." [Blade of Infamy] proves to be roughly as good for an 11/28/22 build as [Talon of Azshara] and [Vengeful Gladiator's Slicer]. Of course, the MH Warglaive is by far the best Hemo weapon, but even with the Talon, Hemo damage is quite comparable to combat swords (at least assuming I've modeled it even remotely accurately).

It's a personal spreadsheet which I can PM or e-mail to you upon request. The gear used as a base is my own current gear, as indicated in the above post.

I'm looking at your gear and notice how well its put together for a pve combat build. As u said you based the spreadsheet off your gear combined with the weapons. The question becomes how less valuable do you consider hit as a needed stat and the ability to stack AP and crit becomes. With no combat potency i think the need for hit becomes less important and less penalizing. 225 hit, 250 hit? Maybe a vashj belt and alar gloves to max ur expertise and 250 hit?

Edit :Stated before hemo becomes more valuable then sinister strike when an attack power soft cap is reached but its a abnormal amount i think. i know i seen a post bout this somewhere but its late and cant find it

Curious, how would a 0/40/21-0/39/22-0/37/24 build do DPS wise? Ignoring the fact that you might not get off all charges while ARing...

When you ran the numbers for 11/20/30, did you re-gem for AP, and if so how did it affect the figures?

Similarly, I'd be interested to see how 11/20/30 looks with Executioner rather than Mongoose, since you'll get disproportionate benefit from combining Executioner with Serrated Blades.