Cos-

All my loose math on DD makes it look like ~3% damage increase over all without taking into account how much faster the last 20% of a mobs health goes away. To me ~1.5% damage increase versus something like 1.25% increase in white damage seems like a wash. I think I'd rather stick with 5/5 sword spec just so I know that Im going to get full use of my talents and not ghosted/doomed before the mob even hits 35%.

 

MassMan

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator
I'm wondering if 14/13/34 will be a viable raid spec?

- Compared to 11/28/22 you lose DualWield, WeaponSpec, BladeFlurry and WE. The traditional PvE talents.
- But you gain DirtyTricks, 10% AP, Premed, CheatDeath and 15% Eviscerate.

I would *really* like the added survivability of CheatDeath which is the main reason I'm thinking about 14/13/34. The question is whether 10%AP and the other advantages can make up for the disadvantages?

 

Dominus

WE cuts out 2.5% dodge. Combine that with the fact that expertise isn't something very easy to gear around (think of the really worthwhile pieces with expertise...Vashj belt, Vashj dagger, Hydross shoulders are the only ones that come to mind), and WE basically gives you itemization points to free up. Since DD is only active during the last 35% on specials, and WE is active for an entire fight for specials/white damage (and you also get 1/2 DD, so less dodge on specials makes that 1 point better) I feel it should pull ahead.

 

Killars

This says a few things to me.

1. Yay more raid debuffs that will fall off, sweet!

2. No more cookie cutter builds for rogues. With the changes and viablity to spec for both PvP and PvE at the same time, as well as other trends of specs, there will no longer be 1or2 cookie cutter specs for Rogues, and I view that as a great thing.

3. You can finally PvP while being hemo and make sense of it!

4. People can stop saying Rogues are just leechs and give nothing to the raid. Now we have a great raid buff so people can stop crying =P

5. Our burst damage is significantly better, something I think we have been lacking TBC.

That's all for now, imma do some testing on the PTR when I arrive home.

 

Cos-

Premed, cheatdeath, and improved evis are: basically useless, unnecessary, and worth having in 2-3 fights in t5+ content respectively. That build just bleeds lost dps out of every pore.

Edit: Not to mention you take prep which also doesn't contribute meaningfully to your dps in most situations.

 

Starsprophet

I havnt gotten to read through the whole thread yet, but i was wondering if anyone has talked about specing into a 0/31/30 spec. I realise that the first 11 points in assassination is a fairly big dps loss, but im thinking that 2x AR in any boss fight could counter that. My reasoning of going 5/5 deadliness is that it is a FAR better raid scaling factor than 5/5 malice when you take buffs into account. With this spec you can get hemo, 2/2 DD, and prep. The way i would play the spec would be to use a normal, but limited, cycle duing the first 65% of the fight. Once the boss hits 35% one would pop AR 1 for 15 seconds then Prep and pop AR 2. This would give you a pretty substanital burst to help drop a boss if it is close to the enrage timer.

The spec i was thinking about would look somthing like this 31/30

Tell me what you guys think

 

kegs

I agree and understand that aspect, but at the same time we have to look at how many Hemo's will be fired off between 35% and 0%. SS would be a different story, but with the lower energy cost, as well as (rupture?) 20% could be a huge increase in dps in the time frame.

I guess my only concern with 2/2 DD > 5/5 sword spec, is that in some of the bt/hj fights, 35% --> 0% is a matter of seconds, where as some fights it can be substantially longer.

Is there enough fights that DD would really shine through? or would 5/5 sword spec be better regardless of particular fight situations, and be consistant throughout the entire instance(s)

 

aleyro

I'm assuming that your going after sustained raid dps, amirite?

Drop 3/3 imp. evisc- you should rarely be eviscerating in raids.
Drop premed- an extra 2cp on an opener is going to be inconsequential for long fights.
Use those 4 points to get 2/2 sprint and 2/5 DW spec. DW spec is crucial.
dirty tricks is not a PVE talent; drop it.
Imo, remove points from elusiveness and put them in setup. extra CPs are more valuable than shorter blind (pvp talent) and vanish (you already have prep if you need to vanish more frequently). Also, setup is the only talent that will really benefit from all of the dodge your getting from Lightning Reflexes.
consider removing 1/2 heightened senses and putting the 3rd point into setup.
opportunity > mod, at least from a DPS standpoint (though opportunity isnt too impressive..).

the end result looks sorta like this:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator


If your goal all along was to try to sneak some pvp utility into a gimped pve build, well done.

 

kegs

Last I had heard, relentless is a far greater energy gain than AR (even twice) in any fight. I'm not sure if this is still true, but as far as I know the first 11 points in assassination are a must (in pve) as well as the first 20 or so in combat (up to DW)

Please correct me if I'm wrong in this thinking.

 

Killars

ar is definitely worse as far as energygain, but AR is pretty amazing when you use it in combination with other cooldowns/etc. TBH AR is more of a PvP talent nowadays with this new hemo buff I doubt many pure DPS raid builds will include it even if you can use it 3-5 times.

 

songster

True. On the other hand, is it a one-shot every time you fight them, or do you sometimes wipe because people died early to random factors? I'm willing to bet that from time to time random crap kills off a couple of DPS early, so you call a wipe and go again. That costs the whole raid at least ten minutes every time it happens.

How much time do you lose if your rogues put out 10% less damage? Well, let's assume a 15 minute fight. Say you have 4/25 rogues. They will contribute something like 25% of the total raid DPS between them. If they each cut their DPS by 10%, that's a net change of 2.5% to your raid DPS. On a 15 minute fight, that comes to 22.5 seconds.

One saved wipe is ~10-15 minutes of raid time, depending when it occurs during the fight. So, if Cheat Death prevents even one wipe in 30, that's a net improvement.

Increased survivability is not always a bad thing in raids.

 

Zadus

Honestly, quit with the cheat death and premed questions.

I believe we should be talking about dropping one point in sword spec 4/5 to make DD 2/2. Would that make up the damage and then some. Anyone want to do any number crunching?

 

saiyajinmaster

Actually, I found the point being made earlier about time saved running around due to Shadowstep to be fascinating. Cheat Death can be used just as offensively if you're creative. Unfortunately, these are the kinds of intangibles that are nearly impossible to model consistently, and are dependant on a fight by fight bases, but the more I think about it the more it seems like the intangible bonuses of 41 subtlety would be favorable rather than bad - enough that I actually want to see some WWS of people that do it. My guild is working on Kael right now, and I can already imagine time shaved off rather nicely running around the room, or even in a pinch I could shadowstep and shiv someone if they get MCed, or shadowstep over to the eggs, etc. Seems pretty handy. Similarly, if there is an issue with bad positioning on a fight or something else, cheat Death could be a pretty handy way to eke out dps where others can't. Intentionally just sitting in on Leo towards the end to get more DPS while he harmlessly ticks away at you for 200, etc.

 

Zadus

/facepalm.

 

Arindelest

The argument about Subtlety being a viable raid build because of all the "utility" doesn't make sense. Sure, you can ShS over to a mob or absorb an occasional beating, but you're forgetting the main problem: Deep Sub just doesn't do very much DPS. Why? Let's see what you actually gain from going deeper than Deadliness in Subtlety (the furthest you'd potentially go for a non-sword Hemo/Combat Build), DPS-wise:

Sinister Calling
Shadowstep

That's it. Shadowstep is hardly a DPS increase, one 120% yellow attack every 30 seconds is just poor. As for the aggro reduction? I think that's hardly Sub's PvE problem right now.

The real issue here is what you give UP, DPS-wise. The biggest problem is the ability to get only one of Relentless Strikes or Dual Wield Spec, if you go 41+ into Sub. Further compounding the problem is if you choose to go for Relentless Strikes, you lose either 4 points in Precision or 1 point in Precision and 3 in Imp SnD; if you go for DWS, you give up Malice, Murder, Ruthlessness, and Relentless Strikes, the single highest DPS talent there is. Not to mention the other important Combat talents a typical Combat/Hemo build can get: Blade Flurry, and potentially a Weapon Specialization + Weapon Expertise (should you choose to go 11/28/22 Swords, or the like).

There's still the argument that Sub has more mobility, but there's a simple answer to that: bring a class which actually has decent DPS output while safely attacking from range, negating all the target-switching problems which you claim ShS helps with, and the "safe" ranged DPS isn't going to be getting cleaved by bosses, hit by AoE attacks, or anything like that, making Cheat Death worthwhile.

Conclusion (for those who didn't read all that): Subtlety is not going to ever compete with Combat/Hemo or Pure Combat for DPS the way the trees are set up at present. The "utility" the Sub rogue brings could be easily replaced by just bringing a ranged class which doesn't suffer from those problems, while doing more DPS. Finally, I assume we've gotten that out of the way, and unless I'm very much mistaken the thread is not on deep-subtlety builds.

 

Starsprophet

Yeah, thats what i was thinking. That build is actually going to be my pvp build next patch, but i think that will probably be the best PvP/Raid spec none the less.

 

Pixelshader

Am I in the official rogue forum or EJ?

 

Tosa

One advantage of 11/21/29 over 11/28/22 is that it would be good for rogues who don't have many options at hand. You're not restricted to sword/sword, nor do you really need a fast off-hand. So you can go with Al'ar fist/Malch or some such.

Hold shift for focused movement.

 

saiyajinmaster

No, we're not on the official wow forums - that's why I consider it valid to actually discuss and (hopefully) see some real data regarding builds that simply don't math out that well. Dismissing osmething out of hand because you can't plug it into the spreadsheet is just ridiculous. You do realize that this very thread we're posting in was started because someone dared to actually TRY a build that everyone said would fail?

Nobody is trying to say this is going to have some magic utility like many other classes, the point is that it's possible these seemingly little benefits can have an actual affect on dps in a positive way. If the build does less DPS even with these bonuses, then obviously it's not worth using. That was never in contention, but if with these little things, used correctly, you could equal or outdps a more cookie-cutter build then it's a worthwhile discussion and brings something new to the table. "LOL you could just bring a ranged dps class" is not a counterpoint - you can do that anyway against any rogue, the reason we're there is because despite that we usually still do more damage. Any spec that wouldn't keep you up there wouldn't matter, but since there hasn't been testing on it one way or another in a real world situation I would say it at least merits some thought.

As was noted, if Shadowstepping around saves you even say, 3 seconds, of running per minute, that's a 5% increase in total damage done (Ignoring the damage bonus it gives, which is admittedly kind of meh), that's not bad. Add in the minor buffage you'll gain from intelligently vanishing 3-4 times per fight each with an accompanying Premed and Garrote (With a point in Master of Subtlety for a tiny bit of kick too), etc. Those are the things that don't add up very easily.

 

clii

I see a lot of people trying to make a pvp/pve build. Why? Why not drop crap like ghostly strikes and setup for more raid usful things like opportunity and slight of hand. Take a look at this build and then watch your rogue really shine. If your wondering why opportunity think of the extra 20% damage to your garrote and if initiative procs thats two points for your s&d for those with 2pc t4. Even this build could be a huge success.

 

Tosa

If your tanks are good enough that you don't need to feint, Sleight of Hand is a waste.

Hold shift for focused movement.

 

Left

This is a fair comment. I spent my commute home thinking about it, so let's run some actual numbers.

Let's assume that we take a standard heavy-sub Hemo build (11/21/29) and adjust it to get Cheat Death and Shadowstep. You have two options: Drop points from Assassination, or drop points in Combat. The resulting build options would be:

Assassination/Shadowstep - 11/9/41
Combat/Shadowstep - 0/20/41

For the first build, I don't know if it is worse to drop points in Improved SnD or Precision, but keeping Improved SnD lets you keep using "normal" combo point cycles, so that's what I chose to keep.

Disclaimer: All of the below math is very rough, and mostly just there for a basic comparison. I'm sure it could be heavily refined.

So, what do we lose?

Assassination/Shadowstep
We lose most of Precision, we lose Blade Flurry, and we lose all of DW Spec.

First, DW Spec. For me, white damage is 55%-60% of my total damage output, but with Hemo I would expect it to be very slightly less (no weapon expertise)... say 50%, conservatively. 5/5 DW Spec is +50% damage to your offhand weapon. Assuming equal DPS weapons in both hands, this is a result of (1+0.5+0.5*0.5)/(1+0.5) = 1.75/1.5 = 116.67% dps or a net gain of 16% DPS gain DW Spec (or in this case, a loss).

Now, Precision. I would expect precision to be roughly a further 4% loss, for approximately a 20% white DPS loss, or a 10% DPS loss overall given that half my damage is white damage.

Blade flurry is the loss of 15 seconds of +20% speed every 2 minutes, or an overall, averaged haste effect of about 2.5%... another 2.5% white damage loss.

So our total DPS loss is in the 10-11% range.

Combat/Shadowstep
We lose Malice, Murder, Ruthlessness, and Relentless Strikes. Now, this one is harder to quantify.

Malice is roughly a 5% DPS loss to all abilities what can crit, so assuming 80% of your damage can crit that is a 4% overall DPS loss.

Murder is a 2%, situational, DPS loss.

Ruthlessness and Relentless Strikes are the hardest to model in a quick-and-dirty way, but in the DPS spreadsheet in my current gear using a theoretical Hemo spec, I get a loss of roughly 8.5% DPS whether I am buffed or unbuffed.

Together, that is a total of about a 12-13% total DPS loss.

So, what do we gain in exchange for the 10-13% DPS losses in the above build options?

Gains from Shadowstep
1) Survivability in the form of Cheat Death
2) +2% AP from 1 more point in Deadliness
3) +15% agility from 5/5 Sinister Calling
4) Shadowstep

Unwrapped...
1) Survivability is nice, but it isn't quantifiable DPS-wise. You shouldn't die anyway, but it could be nice. It might be worth sacrificing a couple %DPS for if you really, really want to always survive. But for the sake of this, I can't quantify it.
2,3) +2% AP is nice, and the +15% agility gives another maybe 5% (if 1/3 of your attack power is from agility), but a ~7% AP boost isn't a ~7% damage boost. For a rogue with 2000 AP (a fairly sizeable number, IMO), AP is contributing roughly 2000/14 = 142 DPS. For a rogue with 95 DPS base weapons, this is 142/(142+95) = 60% damage coming from attack power as opposed to weapon DPS. So, the AP boost is really just about 0.6*7% = 4.2% increase.
3) The +15% agility should give some crit, probably an extra 10% or so depending on how much of your crit is from agility as opposed to crit rating. an extra 10% crit for a rogue w/ 25% crit is 0.1*25% = 2.5% crit, which is (assuming again that 80% of damage can crit) a 2% DPS increase.
4) Shadowstep is kinda crappy in terms of direct DPS increase, even using it immediately every single time it is off cooldown. +20% to one ability every 30 seconds is buffing ~30/300 energy expenditure by 20%. Now, only 50% of your damage is yellow, and lets assume that we buff all of it roughly equally. Let's multiply... (30/300)*(50%)*(20%) = 0.01 = 1% DPS increase. Maybe you could eke out a little more by using Shadowstep only for finishers, but that would probably be a wash due to not using it every time the cooldown was up. Also, in reality you expend more energy in that timeframe if you have Relentless Strikes, so the % contribution from Shadowstep drops a bit more.

So, best case DPS increase from deep Sub talents is around 7%.

It looks to me like a 3-6% DPS loss minimum in a deep Sub build over a traditional build. Can that be made up with Shadowstep in terms of mobility?

Mobility Contributions
To be more or less viable, we need to make up ~5% damage from Shadowstep which would otherwise be lost due to melee downtime. So, if Shadowstep can save us 3 seconds of DPS time per minute, it could (theoretically) come out on top. Fights in T4 content where this might be possible because you have to move a lot:

*Maiden (if you move out to bandage)
*Curator
*Aran
*Netherspite (if you move out for his banish phase)
*Prince
*Maulgar
*Grull
*Magtheridon (if you are a cube clicker)

I have little T5 experience, and no T6. What fights there? VR? Vashj? Alar?

It starts to look more possible that people originally thought, although you would really have to be on top of your Shadowstep usage to make it an optimal spec. (Plus, fights where you use Shadowstep for mobility probably prevents you from regularly using it for just a DPS increase.)

Conclusion: It's not as bad as people say, but it is certainly situational to come out on top.

Anything wrong with my math? Any comments?

 

PSGarak

I was thinking about shadowstep's mobility time being factored as solid dps, and started thinking if Cheat Death can be factored as dps as well. Melee-unfriendly fights generally mean running in and out to avoid some big-numbered secondary attack like whirlwind or whatever. For example: you can completely ignore Aran's arcane explosion if the cooldown is up. Even with shadowstep that's gotta be a good 6 seconds of dps gained.

How much dps time to you gain by being able to ignore one of those run-in-run-outs every minute? Granted, this means you're using it as a dps ability and if you're saturating it you're preventing it from saving your life to something unexpected, and it's also very particular to the fight--even more so than shadowstep. Still, can someone familiar with T5+ fights list how many seconds per minute you could save if cheat death meant you could avoid one thing per minute?

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

panny

Not really, since it's much easier to change your gear than your talent spec. Not to mention being able to fine-tune the DPS loss/survivability gain.

Fix Spirit Wolves not responding to commands.
DK/Rogue

 

Duskmourn

Just a slight remark, but Archimonde's doomfire hardly makes it a melee unfriendly fight. That is probably the most welcome fight for rogues outside of RoS.