[Rogue]The Combat vs Hemo Point of Inflection - Page 29

• frmorrison · 10/22/07, 12:31 AM

I like the Hemo buff, but don't like only having 10 charges up on the mob. I understand that 30 is too much, but I think 15 (over the PTR's 10) would add that extra utility to make it worth it to have a Rogue spec Hemo.

sltyntzhrt · 10/22/07, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

I like the Hemo buff, but don't like only having 10 charges up on the mob. I understand that 30 is too much, but I think 15 (over the PTR's 10) would add that extra utility to make it worth it to have a Rogue spec Hemo.

I dont mind the 10 charges but instead of the flat 36 damage they should have added weapon damage. Maybe 10 weapon damage? Not sure of a balanced number. Would have made hemo valuability much more apparent to the non rogue classes.

Edit: And helped with druid dps as i know blizzard is trying to find a way to increase it cause the HotW change and how much FAP has changed on the weapons n the PTR.

Draanimrev · 10/22/07, 11:00 AM

I always loved raiding as hemo. I was doing it for quite a while during our Naxx days before the expansion. I'm not the best theorycrafter, so I normally just read what everyone else has already tested/posted and usually believe it.

However, I finally decided "What the hell" I want to see just HOW bad Hemo is. So I respeced 11/20/30 and pulled out my Rod of the Sun King/Swiftsteel Bludgeon and zoned myself into Black Temple.

I only have one WWS report and it's from Gorefiend, but I'll tell you what, I was pretty impressed how it kept up marginally well. I don't think I would use it on Non-Farm content, simply because I know even with a Season 2 MH/Season 1 OH sword combo I can do more overall DPS, but it's still a start, and gives me hope for the patch.

Here is the WWS. I hope it can maybe help some of you guys get an idea of what Hemo can/can't do.

Wow Web Stats

Aereus · 10/23/07, 3:23 AM

So how much do you guys think a "raid hemo" build would be behind combat swords for DPS come 2.3 then? And how much of a TPS gain would that be for the tank? (Which would allow everyone else without an aggro wipe to DPS harder)

banned · 10/23/07, 5:11 AM

I did a small test on the servants in blasted lands at the PTR.

I don't have any good gear or anything (check armory, banned@executus-EU). I copied 2 characters to the PTR and made one combat/sword, and one 11/26/24.

I didn't use poisons since they were bugged on my hemo build (130% application chance).

I used a rotation where I tried to keep both SnD and rupture up all the time, with 3 to 5p ruptures (with both specs).

These are the dps numbers reported by Recount:

hemo: 940 dps. Since those mobs go to 1 hp and stay there, the new Dirty Deeds talent was active the whole time, I checked Recount and recalculated the hemo and rupture data, and the corrected value was 895 dps.

combat: 965 dps

I also noted that I use up 3-5 hemo charges myself between each hemo. And with about 1 hemo every 4 seconds (since energy was used also on rupture and SnD), that's 5-7 hemo charges for the raid. I think crit and armor damage reduction roughly cancel out eachother for the hemo 36 damage, so the hemo debuff will give the raid about 55 dps, while I lost 70 dps compared to combat.

Revelations · 10/23/07, 5:44 AM

Yyou still need more reasons to go heavier in subtetly. Make Deadliness-talent provide 15% ap instead, I mean afterall we arent warriors with 460ap shout nor druids who only stacks massive ap. Arenarogues with 1300 ap wont notice the diffrence but it should make subtetly more viable in pve.

Ashere · 10/23/07, 9:15 AM

Originally Posted by elandriel

What i meant is that I would like to see Blizzard upping the charges to 20. This won't affect the skill at all for pvp but will make it much more viable for pve.

You are aware that the damage per charge would be lowered again if they did this? Probably by roughly half, so down to 18 damage/charge.

Overall, this would rather make hemo LESS viable for PvE again then MORE viable.
Do NOT be eluded by the times hemo is not up because all charges are used up. The only thing that matters is the total amount of damage from these charges per hemo application. No matter how long the debuff is active or between how many charges it's divided, it's still 360 damage max (excluding crits) per 3.5 seconds

10 charges is actually a perfect amount, since it will basically guarantee you that all charges will be used before your next strike, even in 10 men raids.

Hemo debuff received a buff by going from 300 to 360 damage in total (non-crit) and at the same time received a buff by making it less raid reliant, by spreading the damage over less charges.

At the same time, increasing the amount of charges back up again from 10 to 20, would mean that a lower percentage of all charges will be used in smaller parties, raids or when soloing, so a lower percentage of the 360 damage, directly affecting the rogues' DPS. The change to hemo is a huge buff for the PvP rogue, who will now also benefit from the debuff. Doubling the amount of charges again will basically mean that the PvP rogue gets only half the benefit from these charges in PvP.

Bendyr · 10/23/07, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by banned

I did a small test on the servants in blasted lands at the PTR.

I don't have any good gear or anything (check armory, banned@executus-EU). I copied 2 characters to the PTR and made one combat/sword, and one 11/26/24.

I didn't use poisons since they were bugged on my hemo build (130% application chance).

I used a rotation where I tried to keep both SnD and rupture up all the time, with 3 to 5p ruptures (with both specs).

These are the dps numbers reported by Recount:

hemo: 940 dps. Since those mobs go to 1 hp and stay there, the new Dirty Deeds talent was active the whole time, I checked Recount and recalculated the hemo and rupture data, and the corrected value was 895 dps.

combat: 965 dps

Banned, so you were using the 2.6 speed MG slicer for these tests? Very interesting stuff. I have the maces myself, and am very tempted to try out the switch (but the PTR transfer isn't working anymore).

Also, I'm a little confused about some of your sub talent choices. Are we attempting to compare these builds in a PVE DPS setting? If so, I think Dirty Tricks and Initiative are pretty bad talents, and should be replaced by Sleight of Hand and Setup.

Blacklisted · 10/23/07, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

I modeled the new Hemorrhage in my personal DPS spreadsheet using the following method:

3) The hemo/swords build with 2/2 W.Ex. and 1/2 Dirty Deeds gives a theoretical output of 1485.16 after the Hemo debuff. This is an increase of 41.77 (+2.89%) over the combat swords build. Note that Dirty Deeds is simply modeled as a 10% increase per point on special damage 35% of the time (thus it is slightly overvalued).
4) The hemo/swords build with 1/2 W.Ex. and 2/2 Dirty Deeds gives a theoretical output of 1484.44 after the Hemo debuff. This is an increase of 41.04 (+2.84%) over the combat swords build. Recall that Dirty Deeds is slightly overvalued; even still, trading one point of Weapon Expertise for one point of Dirty Deeds is found to be suboptimal. From now on, therefore, we shall only consider builds with 2/2 W.Ex. and 1/2 Dirty Deeds.

Conclusions: 11/28/22 swords may very well be quite competitive with combat swords for DPS. It certainly might not be a bad investment to have one Hemo rogue in a raid, depending on quite a lot of factors of your physical DPS classes, including their crit rates, abilities used, and armor penetration. 11/20/30 will be slightly inferior to 11/28/22 with swords, but for other weapon types, it will be superior. Finally, 2/2 Weapon Expertise is likely more important and a higher priority for any combat/sub hybrid build than 2/2 Dirty Deeds.

(edit) Additionally, it does seem that 2.6 is sufficient speed for Hemo to function, even though it's not what we would normally consider "slow." [Blade of Infamy] proves to be roughly as good for an 11/28/22 build as [Talon of Azshara] and [Vengeful Gladiator's Slicer]. Of course, the MH Warglaive is by far the best Hemo weapon, but even with the Talon, Hemo damage is quite comparable to combat swords (at least assuming I've modeled it even remotely accurately).

sorry for cutting up ur post, but i just wanted to note that the 11/20/30 spec is probably better dps by using 11/21/29 with blade flurry and only 4/5 deadliness.

also, would the hemo sword build be better at 11/27/23, keeping 2/2 wEx like you said, but dumping 1 point from sword spec to get 2/2 dirty deeds?

skorpeo · 10/23/07, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Bendyr

Banned, so you were using the 2.6 speed MG slicer for these tests? Very interesting stuff. I have the maces myself, and am very tempted to try out the switch (but the PTR transfer isn't working anymore).

Also, I'm a little confused about some of your sub talent choices. Are we attempting to compare these builds in a PVE DPS setting? If so, I think Dirty Tricks and Initiative are pretty bad talents, and should be replaced by Sleight of Hand and Setup.

Initiative needs to be in there to get to the next tier, not to mention most people open with Garrote and you get that 75% chance to get an extra CP. Dirty Tricks can be replaced by SoH but if you are going this spec you are probaly doing both PVE and PVP (otherwise just go combat swords/maces), then at that point you would have to argue whats better DT or SoH? SoH does reduce crit chance by 2% (helps out resilience) and that feint buff (but who uses feint when raiding), then you have DT which will save your butt in PVP and let you open up a lot faster (saves energy after Sap/Blind)

Bendyr · 10/23/07, 12:57 PM

I've never raided hemo, so I really can't say, but generally it seems that talents that only benefit your opener are less useful in long instance fights than in pvp or solo pve.

Neckface · 10/23/07, 1:08 PM

Even though I wrote the original "Toward a theory of PvE Hemo" post referred to by the OP I'm embarrassed to say that until a couple of days ago I was unaware of this thread and the fact that people had been both gathering data and doing theorycrafting on the build. Nor had I actually tried it myself.

But I was encouraged by these findings to give it a whirl last night and was pretty pleased with the result. One night's data is not conclusive, but I was quite satisified with the apparent results, even before factoring in the raid benefit of the hemo debuff. Additionally, I found prep quite useful on some BT trash.

The only really surprising (for me) result was the % of total damage that was white. 65-70% typically, and a whopping 77% on Shade of Akama.

Raf · 10/23/07, 1:13 PM

I am looking for a reason to go Hemo for PVE. But I see some of these build recommendations for 2.3 missing some talents that would synergize very well with Hemo IMO...particularly for PvE.

I am talking about the 11/27/23 build in particular...Which seems to be the best PvE DPS build...

Why no Opportunity? a 20% buff to Garrote? Sounds like a perfect opener to me...
and I think you have to spend a point in Prep...which is such a great utility talent, I cannot see why you wouldn't...with Vanish you can restealth in a boss fight to reply Garrote again...Evasion...Blade Flurry?

In fact with Elusiveness talent...you could possibly hit Garrote 3? 4? times in a boss fight...Wouldn't this be a nice DPS boost? Even moreso to a boss under 35% HP with new Dirty Deeds Buff...

Intiative as well would likely grant additional CP as well...I see that as useful as CS or Gar would be the likely openers to majority of foes...going into 2/3pt SnD right off the bat

The one question and negative I potentially see of the 1pt in Prep is the loss of 1/2 in Weap expertise....How much of loss would this be? Does having higher +to hit offset this loss by enough?

Also what is the value of 4/5 Sword Spec over 4/5 Deadliness. Since calculations seem to imply that with added AP (1470-1514 it appears) spamming Hemo will out DPS SS on a per basis...

My own situation is that I don't have 2 worthy swords presently to make Sword spec worthwhile..So dumping 4pts into a talent that would only have 50% benefit seems like a waste to me...down the road...this would change of course...That is unless...for 2.3 Hemo build...Vindicator\Latro's 4/5 Sword Spec would outperform Vindicator\Malchazzen 4/5 Deadliness...

Here is the build I was looking at for 2.3

11/21/29
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Another possibility is dropping out of Assn tree altogether and thereby maxing out key talents in Combat\Sub for Hemo...Not sure what CP generation would be like however...

You could dump pts in either Master of Sub for extra 10% damage or in new buffed Cheat Death...which for PvE...while a nice ability I see as more limited.....I think they key for any PvE Sub build would be maximizing attacks from Stealth...

28/33
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Any thoughts appreciated...

Neckface · 10/23/07, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by Blacklisted

also, would the hemo sword build be better at 11/27/23, keeping 2/2 wEx like you said, but dumping 1 point from sword spec to get 2/2 dirty deeds?

Interesting question. If each point of sword spec is worth 1%, the question is how much a point of dirty deeds is worth. With the change to DD (is it confirmed?) you will do an extra 20% * 35% * (yellow damage%). So solving for 0.2 * 0.35 * X > 0.01 gives us a threshold of around 14%. If more than 14% of your damage is from specials, then it's probably worth the switch.

My own recent WWS reports using 11/28/22 have Hemo doing 19% of my damage.

Makes me want to go back and kill Razorgore.

Edit: Oops, DD gives only a 10% bonus to specials when target is below 35%. So the threshold is really about 28.5%. Nevermind.

Calidar · 10/23/07, 1:53 PM

Originally Posted by banned

I did a small test on the servants in blasted lands at the PTR.

I don't have any good gear or anything (check armory, banned@executus-EU). I copied 2 characters to the PTR and made one combat/sword, and one 11/26/24.

I didn't use poisons since they were bugged on my hemo build (130% application chance).

I used a rotation where I tried to keep both SnD and rupture up all the time, with 3 to 5p ruptures (with both specs).

These are the dps numbers reported by Recount:

hemo: 940 dps. Since those mobs go to 1 hp and stay there, the new Dirty Deeds talent was active the whole time, I checked Recount and recalculated the hemo and rupture data, and the corrected value was 895 dps.

combat: 965 dps

I also noted that I use up 3-5 hemo charges myself between each hemo. And with about 1 hemo every 4 seconds (since energy was used also on rupture and SnD), that's 5-7 hemo charges for the raid. I think crit and armor damage reduction roughly cancel out eachother for the hemo 36 damage, so the hemo debuff will give the raid about 55 dps, while I lost 70 dps compared to combat.

Interesting, but just one thought. Given the level difference between yourself and them, is the armor penetration effect of the hemo build actually being accounted for? Unless I am mistaken (and I may be), with a significant level gap between the attacker and the defender like that, the defender's armor is essentially irrelevant, with attacks pretty much hitting for their full, unmitigated damage.