Also people would benefit from testing with the 11/21/29 build since that seems to be the one with the highest dps. But it might be that people just have to much hit in their gear atm to be able to get the full benefit from that spec.
You guys can do these tests in Dire Maul North with the elite ghosts behind the king. They don't die, they take rupture and poisons, they are always at 100% (no DD influence) and most important: you can fight them from the back (they don't turn around or attack you). It's just a little bit more effort to get to them.
You guys can do these tests in Dire Maul North with the elite ghosts behind the king. They don't die, they take rupture and poisons, they are always at 100% (no DD influence) and most important: you can fight them from the back (they don't turn around or attack you). It's just a little bit more effort to get to them.
That's really nice, I will try it later and report back.
I did some basic tests for 3 hours in Blasted Lands. Mostly because I wanted to see the difference between 2 specs and test accuracy of mods (btw Recount was very inaccurate on dps tests).
Used same gear for both tests and fought the servants in Blasted Lands.
Using Recap and SW_STats as well as WWS I had the following.
First Spec: Hemo 0/20/41
Hemo test 1 = 911 dps
Hemo test 2 = 931 dps (tightened my cycle)
Second Spec: 20/41/0
Combat Swords test = 1000 dps.
Fights were 5 minutes long on average.
Now against bosses, I feel that Combat Swords will be even higher due to Expertise and Surprise Attacks (fewer dodges) and Serrated Blades will have less of an impact due to bosses having higher armor than the servants in Blasted Lands.
I still don't see Hemo beating out Combat Swords for top raid dps but it looks like it will at least be viable now. I have not tested out 11/21/29 yet that others have been talking about.
A friend of mine is also looking at a 5/31/25 build (Mace/Hemo) as well but I didnt have similar weapons for testing. His theory is the new mace crits + pre/AR m+ serrated/dirty deeds is going to make him a juggernaut in pvp.
Did another test using an 11/27/23 build which is very similar to what people have been recommending. Only difference is that I went 1/2 Expertise and 2/2 Dirty instead of 2/2 Expert and 1/2 Dirty.
Was in same gear and buffs. Fights lasted 6 min 30 secs and 6 min 50 secs respectively.
Test 1 = 1088 dps.
Test 2 = 1084.1 dps.
Used a 3s/5r rotation.
Note: Yes I know that 1 pt of expertise is about 0.20% better than 1 pt of dirty deeds.
1 pt expertise = 1.25% more dps vs 1 pt dirty deeds being about 1.05% more dps.
One more thing is that I'm not convinced which ability(Hemo Vs SS) scales better.
Hemo does not only scale better than a fully talented SS in 2.3, but it starts to have better DPE at even "blue" level gear:
DPE(SS): (D + 98) x 1.16 / 40
DPE(Hemo): D x 1.25 / 35
At normalized weapon damage D = 423.3 (e.g. wielding a 71.7 DPS / 2.6 speed MH with roughly 1381 AP), Hemo and SS DPE are equal; raid buffed at T6 level (assuming a 100 DPS / 2.6 speed MH, and 2800 AP), you'd be looking at
so Hemo would be roughly 10% ahead, DPE-wise. Currently, at attainable gear levels, Hemo instead lacks behind in that department.
Note that damage-wise, Hemo is always below SS - that's been true for all of TBC (basically because of Surprise Attacks [+10%], and the higher static damage of the new SS rank [+98]).
Regardless, Hemo/Combat should have lower yellow damage than SS/Combat simply because the additional Combat Potency yields 15-20% higher energy regeneration than Relentless Strikes alone (~1.40 e/sec [CP + RS] vs. 115 e/sec [RS]). But it's a lot closer in 2.3...
I did some testing on the blasted land's mobs on the PTR but i decided to leave out DD from the hemo build due to the constant 1% hp - might be easier also to calculate how much extra dps DD would have given rather than subtracting how much damage DD contributed in such a case.
I also didnt use setup due to high dodge rates which would skew things.
Anyway, each fight was around 6mins in length and i used recount, no buffs, using 1s/5r cycle:
with a standard combat swords spec of 20/41 it came to 1077 dps
I also tried 11/21/29 though of course not picking up DD and instead just getting some filler points which would have no effect on the test - it came to 1073 dps
A couple things to point out was that weapon expertise is having 0 effect here as im not getting any dodged or parried attacks anyway. Also, im getting 0 misses which would benefit combat swords more in theory due to increased combat potnecy procs. Unless of course my recount is broken and its not recording dodges/misses etc but this seems unlikely.
This thread has taken a horrible turn, the discussion here should be around doing maximized dps with a spec, who cares about survivability on a fight or preventing a potential wipe? No fight in the game requires cheat death to prevent a wipe, moving out of AOEs is not hard. Also you claim you can eek out extra damage on fights like leo? Why would you ever put the strain on your healers by sitting through a whirlwind, that is just plain stupid. Being the rogue class leader of a guild that has had Illidan on farm for months, I would gkick any of my rogues that came to the raid shadowstep claiming "the utility makes up for the dps loss" this thread disgusts me, can we please turn it back into the right direction.
You know, you make this assumption, and then lambast people who are looking into Shadowstep, but where is the math to back it up? Sure, the assumption is that deep subtlety is inferior DPS-wise, but it used to be the assumption that combat swords was inferior to combat daggers, and it used to be assumed that Hemo was inferior to combat swords. In time, one of those situations was reversed and the other is coming out to be a wash in certain situations (in patch 2.3).
Note that I'm not saying that Shadowstep is superior, but if you are going to knock it at least analyze it. I tried to do so quantitatively in my earlier post, but nobody has aparently bothered to read through that post and comment on the math involved.
My conclusion was that in a pure DPS-burn a Sub/Shadowstep build using Hemo will fall behind a "standard" Hemo build by 3-6% (less than I initially thought), which will in turn fall behind a pure combat build by a bit. Oddly, though, 3-6% isn't nearly as much as I expected, and is a number that could be made up for on high-mobility fights. (Same argument as for using Cat's Swiftness over Dexterity, where the differences are very minute, at best.) In a fight where a Shadowstep build can result in 5-10% increased DPS time, it could very well pull ahead of a normal Hemo build in terms of total damage output over the course of the fight.
I'd like to see somebody actually address the math in my earlier post, instead of making blanket assertions. After all, reasoned analysis and discussion is what this forum is about... bashing, assumptions, and general whining about how people choose to spec is what the WoW forums are all about.
Last edited by Left : 11/06/07 at 8:40 AM.
Reason: Spelling error
Rage Winterchill: shadowstepping back in from a bad death and decay saves 2 seconds of dps, lets say this happens 3 times a fight (Ive had fights where every DND was on casters) thats 6 seconds of extra dps vs 5% static crit and better energy/cp gen. so for this fight its a LOSS of dps. Anetheron: If you have to run out because of an infernal, saves a max of 10~ seconds of dps on average if you shadowstep back in. LOSS of dps. Kazrogal: Absolutely nothing that you would use CD or SS for. LOSS of dps. Azgalor: Running out of rain of fires, and cheat death possibly saving you from a rain of fire death, however.. I never die on this fight due to proper use of cloak timed with silences, so Im only counting the dps gain from shadowstepping in once every 30 seconds, fight lasts around 5-6 minutes so a gain of 30 seconds of dps? still seems like a LOSS of dps. Archimonde: You should not be dieing in this fight period, you have cloak of shadows if you were to ever even take a doomfire you can cloak it. For this reason I do not count cheat death to be a dps gain, you should never even risk standing in a doomfire to get extra dps. Shadowstepping could save you around 20-30 seconds of dps time on this fight. DPS LOSS
See the trend?
Actually, no. You are the one failing to appreciate the value of increased time on target. Look at Azgalor - you're estimating 30 seconds more DPS out of 6 minutes. That is a 9% DPS increase (360/330 - 1). We already have a post upthread estimating that the net loss of DPS from a shadowstep build is ov the order of 7-8%. So there's one fight where it looks like a net gain. It's worth a careful look at any rate.
When I get home from work I'll feed my own gear and spec into the current beta DPS sheet, and get a more exact estimate of what percentage increase in DPS time is necessary to compensate for the loss of assassination or combat talents, since the one upthread was pretty ad-hoc.
Note that in this calculation we're not putting any value at all on the increased survivability of a deep sub build, which is probably fair for a raid situation.
Edited to add: I'll also fiddle around to look at the effect of using Sstep on ruptures. This looks like the best use of Sstep in fights where you don't have to move. Note that the standard Hemo cycle is 3s/5r or 4s/5r, which is long enough for the Sstep cooldown to be used for every rupture.
Hemo does not only scale better than a fully talented SS in 2.3, but it starts to have better DPE at even "blue" level gear:
DPE(SS): (D + 98) x 1.16 / 40
DPE(Hemo): D x 1.25 / 35
At normalized weapon damage D = 423.3 (e.g. wielding a 71.7 DPS / 2.6 speed MH with roughly 1381 AP), Hemo and SS DPE are equal; raid buffed at T6 level (assuming a 100 DPS / 2.6 speed MH, and 2800 AP), you'd be looking at
so Hemo would be roughly 10% ahead, DPE-wise. Currently, at attainable gear levels, Hemo instead lacks behind in that department.
Note that damage-wise, Hemo is always below SS - that's been true for all of TBC (basically because of Surprise Attacks [+10%], and the higher static damage of the new SS rank [+98]).
Regardless, Hemo/Combat should have lower yellow damage than SS/Combat simply because the additional Combat Potency yields 15-20% higher energy regeneration than Relentless Strikes alone (~1.40 e/sec [CP + RS] vs. 115 e/sec [RS]). But it's a lot closer in 2.3...
If you check my math one page ago, It's not better DPE, And never will.
Simply because the 31 energy SS vs 35 energy Hemo will Always be greater than 1.16 mult. SS vs 1.25 mult. Hemo.
With a combined miss/dodge rate of 6%. 52,2 * 0,94 = 49.
20% proc chance 49 * 0,2 = 9,8 procs. In energy 9,8 * 15 = 147 EPM
In Seconds 147/60 = 2,45 EPS. Let's say for simplicity that you SS each 4 sec, and your finishers are free. So That leaves us with 9,8 energy off per SS.
Though most will be att about 10% combined miss/dodge, so it'll be 9,4 EPSS (Energy Per Sinister Strike. heh, 4% hit gives you 6 energy per min..) And take into account that some finishers will cost (If you do a 4/5 or 3/5 cycle) So let's say the final cost of an SS is 31 Energy.
Minor speed increase is not small at all! 8% movement speed, on a fight with as little as 10% movement time, results in roughly 0.8% DPS increase (slightly more, in fact, but that's negligible), which I would guess is much bigger than any other enchant (excluding shoulder/head/weapon enchants of course). On fights with any more movement it's not even up for discussion. Minor speed the way I see it is pretty vital to have for just about any class in the game for any aspect of the game (raiding, pvp, farming...).
Due to shadowstep's cooldown though, the fight needs to have more than just "10% of the time spent moving". It would require the majority of the movement to happen in bursts and not too often. On a fight where you would need to shadowstep to max range exactly every 40 seconds I could see a considerable DPS increase, but on a fight like lurker where you move often but short distances it just won't add nearly as much to your movement. You could create a model to evaulate the DPS increase from the lowered need for movement for every single fight and figure shadowstep's value by that, but due to the requirements on the fight to make shadowstep useful I highly doubt you will get results that will favor shadowstep. Worth checking though if you actually have the ability to model it.
SS energy cost
You assumed you SS every 4 seconds but also assumed 31 energy cost. If you'd get 39 energy cost I'd say it's close enough to 4 seconds, but with 31 energy you get quite away from the 1 SS per 4 seconds therefore you get a lot less of combat potency time per SS and less cost reduction to SS.
To improve your results I would calculate normal energy regeneration per minute, combat potency regeneration per minute, and then estimate how much energy is spent on each finishers and SS. Or at least assume the combat potency regen duration per SS as something that'll end up close to the final energy cost per SS / 10. Taking SS as 4 seconds makes combat potency look a little bit better than it really is.
A couple things to point out was that weapon expertise is having 0 effect here as im not getting any dodged or parried attacks anyway. Also, im getting 0 misses which would benefit combat swords more in theory due to increased combat potnecy procs. Unless of course my recount is broken and its not recording dodges/misses etc but this seems unlikely.
The mobs are really low to parry/dodge when when you have weapon expertise. I didn't experience any of them, neither misses(with 208 hit, 13 expertise that is).
About hemo scaling:
Yeah combat potency seems to make SS dominate both DPE and scaling. So what hemo really has is, better Rupture damage, 560 armor ignorance and a 360(100~ish DPS) damage raid-wise debuff. It also has some combo points in special occasions(Initiative, Setup)and more Garrote damage(minor).Perhaps a minor increase from camouflage since you when easier to a moving boss to open?
I think the Hemo buff sounds much better than it really is. I still believe though that 1 or 2 hemo rogues will increase raid DPS because of the debuff itself, and since the normalization affects it from now on, it's much easier to itemize around it. The real problem when specing hemo is the need of useless for DPS talents in order to reach Serrated Blades.
If you check my math one page ago, It's not better DPE, And never will.
Simply because the 31 energy SS vs 35 energy Hemo will Always be greater than 1.16 mult. SS vs 1.25 mult. Hemo.
...
Actually, I disagree here. In terms of DPE, Hemo > Sinister Strike. However, Sinister Strike builds have the advantage of Combat Potency, which is energy regen, not a cost reduction of the Sinister Strike ability.
The point is that if you take into account regen talents, Sinister Strike comes out on top because there is extra energy available from Combat Potency. However, since it is possible (though not advisable) to build a Hemo build that gets Combat Potency, I don't think you can reasonably treat Combat Potency as a cost reduction of Sinister Strike.
To be honest I haven't died in a fight we weren't about to wipe to since we stopped putting melees on Azgalor.
Rage - 2 iceblocks before trinket CD if you bother to wear a trinket
Anetheron - swarm + infernal but you can vanish an infernal on yourself or move away from a infernal on a melee
Azgalor - oh god yes if you use melees on him full time
Archimonde - between cloak and 2 min trinket you can save yourself everytime
Najentus - not a chance
Supremus - only if I wanted to watch TV midfight
Akama - nope
Teron - only when ghosted Gurtogg - unless you get 2x fel rage and evasion was down
RoS - turning off auto attack while evasion tanking p1 enrages helped a lot
Mother Shaz - not since the nerf
Council - a couple of close calls but nothing cloak of shadows wouldn't save
Illidan - cheat death won't save you from bad parasites
That really happened to me, he was at 4% or something, and evasion was down when I got my second one. Scary.
Wouldnt the frequency of Sinister Strikes simply be:
(SS Cost)/(EnergyPerSecondGained) ?
So if you already get 10 energy per second, you then just need to add in what you get from combat potency.
Combat Potency should be real easy to calculate. If you have 5 pts, thats 20% chance per OH hit for 15 energy.
20%*15 energy is 3 energy per hit.
Now just calculate how long it takes for you to get a hit, which is again easy.
Take your Off Hand speed (Adjusted by SnD, Haste variables, etc) and divide by your hit rate.
Lets say we have a 1.4 hand wpn and hit rate of 20%, and 2/2 expertise, and mob dodge rate of 5.6%(3.1% after expertise). Our formula would be:
(Orig OH SPD/(1+ SnD Bonus))/(Base hit rate + hit bonus - adjusted dodge rate)
[top] 1.15 (adjusted time for a successful OH hit).
Now we can use that to find out our EPS gained from Combat Potency.
3 energy gained / 1.15 time for a successful hit.
Equates into: 2.61 EPS gained from Combat Potency.
We can find out our average time to get a Sinister Strike by simple taking the SS cost and dividing it by our total EPS.
(SS COST) / (base eps + cp eps) or
40/(10+2.61)
40/12.61
= 3.17 seconds between each SS.
Its not the same as saying SS costs 31.7 energy to use, but the meaning is the same.
Let me know if you see anything wrong with my math.
Edit:
One little side note. I don't normally calculate SS as being a straight up 40 energy cost. I believe that its true cost also factors in the energy lost when its dodged or parried. Now if you are attacking from behind you can ignore the parry.
But if a mob has a 5.6% chance to dodge, and when you miss the energy costs 50% of the skill. My calculated average SS cost would be:
40 +(40/2*(5.6%-EXPERTISEBONUS)) or
40 + (20*(3.1%)) or
40 + 0.62 or
40.62 energy per SS.
Dirty Trinks isn't a raid talent and I would rather have a seemingly useless, but sometime helpful, PvE talent in slight of hand then a useless PvP talent id never use. I pvp a lot, but id be respecing regardless so I don't see any point for DT for me.
I drop 1 point in SS to keep WE 2/2 and DD 2/2 which are much more importent talents IMO.
As far as the threat talk, I don't usually have the competence of a shaman who switches to T Air, but obviously that would change the whole argument as it stacks with Salv and I'd have no shot at pulling aggro, neither would a fury warrior with twin blades. Like I said that would really change the argument, but shamans are hard to find and we only have 2. Tranquil air for us wouldn't be that beneifical regardless as only the one warrior in the group would benefit from it. Dropping Grace of Air with WF is much more beneficial for the group.
_______________________________________________________
Ok now off the topic of those things I have a few question after doing some Hemo testing last night. Now I was using the spec listed above and I was using it on the 1% mobs in BL. I was getting Ruptures for about 313-314 (DD effected) and Hemo's topping out at around 2220-2300 with SS with the same buffs debuffs (Expose/MotB/Hemo) for 1900-2000.
Now I realize most of the imp with this spec will come from the rupture and the fact Hemo cost less energy, that and my white damage with Serrarated blades will go up a significantly, but I still wonder... Will it be the new spec for all rouges, or purhaps will only 2of3 rogues be hemo to keep up the raid buff while the other rogues is combat reaping all the benefits and being the top damage dealer. That is the big question I think right now, but having 1-2 Hemo rogues is definitely a done deal if these changes stay.
Hemo does scale better thats for sure. With a MH warglaive my Hemo should go way up compared to my SS that is for sure. We'll see, please keep posting more info =P
I think you misunderstand - he's referring to 'totem-twisting', whereby a single shaman can drop GoA immediately after WF, and alternate around every 8-9 seconds. WF totem pulses a short duration (10 second) buff, that lasts the full duration even if the totem is destroyed/removed/replaced. Thus you can drop WF (buffing everyone), then immediately drop GoA, wait 8 seconds whilst the whole group gets the benefits of GoA and WF, then immediately drop a WF and GoA combo again before the WF buff drops. It results in 100% WF uptime and probably 80-90% GoA uptime. It's quite mana intensive, but often better than spamming shocks for an Enh shaman.
The other option is to totem-twist between WF and Tranquil Air, when threat is a problem - works exactly the same, except with TA instead of GoA.
Blizzard have said it's not an exploit, but is unintended, and will likely be 'fixed' at a later date.
Oh, I was unaware of that, no shaman I've ever been with has done that, or at least not that I've noticed. Then again I usually have a lot going on my screen, so I wouldn't put it past myself to say I'm just retarded and our Enh. Shaman has been doing it the whole time.
Most likely if you have a resto shaman in your group (we do) you won't get the amazing "totem twisting" because they have way too much to worry about elsewhere.
We had an elemental shaman that went enhance for a few fights during progress, but it didn't last very long. When he went back to elemental we didnt have him in the group due to Wrath being placed in the mage group. So we are at the point where we have 1 resto in our healing group and 1 in the melee resulting in no twisting /cry. Come 2.3 when enhance gets nerfed and we pick up a 3rd (2nd resto) shaman we will finally get the amazingness that a enhance shaman brings to the melee group =P I can't wait!
Shouldn't the +360 damage also be factored into the Hemo DPE?
The debuff doesn't just add the 36 top end damage. The extra damage done by the debuff can crit and is also affected by lethality, impale, and mortal shots. So best case scenario if all charges crit it could potentialy be as high 720 damage* any crit multiplier talents people have.
There was a great post on the euro forums back before TBC came out with math and SS's to support this. I don't know if you knew this or not.
11/06/07, 7:11 AM
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