Kobal

Would you mind doing the same (i.e. with the same gear) for the 11/20/30 and the 11/21/29 spec?

 

Ichichop

I'd agree that only the fist and sword weapons give convincing arguments over getting deadliness and taking the weapon specializations.

/wave fsb

 

Fugazor

11/20/30 - 1282,33
11/20/30 + hemo debuff - 1371,19
11/20/30 + hemo debuff + GS - 1335,93
11/21/29 - 1282,28
11/21/29 + hemo debuff - 1367,69
11/21/29 + hemo debuff + GS - 1328,19

That is with older 2.3.6 spreadsheet!

Tested 11/28/22 yesterday in SSC and I think its safe to assume:
- if mangle is up then this spec will do same dps as 1x/4x/0 plus raid buff = more overall
- if mangle is not up then personal damage should be lower but raid buff keep up = same
- if mob is bleed immune it should do less even considering raid buff

I am wondering about cycle. I still use 1s/5r with x2 T4 set bonus.

 

◊ songster

Fugazor: What speed weapon are you using there? I'm using Dragonmaw as being the best MH weapon available to me. That of course means sword spec won't do as much for me as it would for someone with a slow sword. Would the hybrid Hemo spec thus make sense even with low end gear? Or does it require huge AP to be remotely competitive?

Ichichop: Actually, I'd say that both 11/28/22 and 0/40/21 are coming out in spitting distance of 19/42/0, in that there's only 2% in it if you assume full usage of the Hemo debuff. Personally I'd be tempted by 0/39/22 for the ability to use AR and BF twice even in short fights, since I'm nowhere near the longer fights, progression-wise, but I agree that doesn't make sense for progression raiding.

 

Itzelsnitch

One thing you would have to concider when choosing between 1x/4x and 0/x/x is, that you lose relentles strikes. A 1s/5r cycle uses 6 combo points every 16 seconds, which means that relentles returns 25*6*0.2/16 = 1.875 energy/second.
Assuming 20% avoidance on boss, and 4 points in CP, and a 1.4 speed weapon with SnD and 1 mongoose up, you would gain 12 * 1.3 * 1.02 * 20% * 80% / 1.4 ~= 1.8 energy/sec.

RL is basicly just as good as 4/5 CP, so the choice lies between weapon specs, bladeflurry, and deadlines. CP isn't really an option, seeing how much you lose.

 

Fugazor

2.7, keep in mind I used old spreadsheet (2.3.6) that shows higher dps but I was just comparing builds.

Anyway I used new spreadsheet (2.2.0.1) and if you include "hemo debuff dps estimate" 11/28/22 is comparable to 20/41/0 (seems to be highest sword dps) with or without rupture.

Based on testing it is true. One hemo rogue per raid does not lower dps, it can even increase raid dps. Of course more than one will rather lead to lower raid dps.

 

sp00n

Note that BF is not affected by Preparation.

 

Glaskopft

Mace 20/41/0 -- 1472

Mace 11/21/29 -- 1397
Mace 11/21/29 with hemo debuff --1483

Mace 11/26/24 -- 1360
Mace 11/26/24 with hemo debuff -- 1446

Mace 16/21/24 -- 1342
Mace 16/21/24 with hemo debuff -- 1429

Now If I change my bladed merciless shoulders in combat build for the tier 4 shoulders the hemo build gains 10dps.

Mace 11/21/29 with hemo debuff -- 1493

So with the optimal gem and gear changes for 11/21/29 DPS be sqeezed even higher.

I find myself choosing BOM+BOS on a lot of fights because of aggro.
Now I can choose BOK+BOM for further DPS because of the extra vanish.

Or while learning new encounters the double vanish helps a lot on repair bills and preserving food buffs or even a long walk.

This is with Dragonstrike and spreadsheet (2.2.0.1).

 

Archon_23

I am very curious about this Hemo build. At this point in time we're starting our Mag attempts and I am normally #1 on the meters with 19/42 combat Swords (Hope Ender/Merc OH).

Since I already top the meters by a decent margin losing a minimal amount of personal DPS pales in comparison to contributing to overall raid DPS (We are melee heavy DPS).

My question to you folks is about the normalization of weapon speeds. Honestly how much of a difference is there .1 weapon speed going from 2.60 to 2.70?

I ask because if Spiteblade ever drops It's basically between myself and a War and we would both be using it for "testing". I'd like to have a logical argument for the sword and on top of that I really want to learn this mechanic.

Are slow 2.7/2.8 speed maces being neglected in this Hemo conversation due to Sword spec outshining the harder Hemo hit?

 

Fugazor

You could check also 11/26/24 and 16/21/24.

 

Trazhenko

I'd definitely try this spec for a day if I had a sword, but Morogrim doesn't like me, and I don't do arenas .

All the math points to swords being superior at this stage of the game, but I'm still sporting daggers. I don't do poorly by any means (~1440 last morogrim with 1 grave*), but you always want to do more .


*War/Drood/Enh Sham/Haste Pots, beat the AoE!

 

Ichichop

I am going to try to incorporate everyone's calculations into the original math post with proper quotations.

Are there any warriors reading this thread that know what the effect of the hemo debuff does for tank threat generation? I know that our prot warriors white hit for very small values around 150, so it seems that a 10 damage increase would be relatively large for them. What percentage of a tank's threat generation is damage based?

/wave fsb

 

• Vulajin

That really depends on how many attacks he's performing in a 3.5 second window compared to your other physical attackers. Rogues, fury warriors, and enhancement shamans are much more likely to eat up the Hemo charges, so the tank might only get a couple swings in with the bonus. Plus, it's mitigated by armor.

On average (assuming typical raid boss mitigation of 30%) he'll get about 7 extra damage per swing. Assuming he crits at 10% (completely wild guess here, correct me if I'm wrong), swings twice and uses two instants in 3.5 seconds (for four total attacks), he'll get about 8.8 bonus damage per second, or about 13.2 threat per second.

Considering most tanks I know put out something on the order of 1000 TPS, and that I made some fairly generous assumptions (in my opinion), I would not rate this as a significant boost for tank threat. The charges are much better used by the aforementioned DPS classes, whose crit rates will be better (and the crit rates of the people eating these charges are very important in determining how much of an effect the Hemo debuff really has).

 

• Disquette

First off, I am not trying to be difficult or petulant, I am genuinely curious, since I'm not familiar (any more) with the dps spreadsheets.

Wouldn't all of this have been predicted with the rogue dps spreadsheets? If not, is it because hemo specs weren't included?

I have an interest in testing in general, hence my question. Please see the post below for more information, especially question number 5.
Survey of Theorycrafters - are you a good tester?

 

• Aldriana

Rogue DPS spreadsheet includes hemo, however, I'm of the opinion that it's not terribly accurate on the whole. Rogue Gear Spreadsheet is somewhat more detailed in modeling procs, etc. but does not include Hemo.

However, I think much of the information from this thread is being drawn from the Rogue DPS spreadsheet; it's where a lot of the estimated damage numbers are coming from. I think this thread is just attempting to highlight a build that the original poster considers to be better than it has previously been given credit for.

 

Ichichop

I think that I mentioned this before, but IMO the way current spreadsheets do not take into effect the variability of haste and extra attacks when calculating the "average value" of items like DST and the value of sword spec gives them a large margin of error. For builds that rely on these things more than other builds, such as 11/28/22, the inherent margin of error is large enough to make the spreadsheets inadequate in comparing builds that are very close in dps otherwise. Statistical data and raw theorycrafting is therefore needed to prove if the build is equivalent to "more observed" builds or in fact superior.

For example, if you equip a ring with +haste or have blade flurry in your spec then the dps value of your DST should go up since it will proc more over time. Last time I looked the spreadsheets had a fixed "average haste" value for items like this. When you are comparing builds that are close enough to eachother, you need to be extremely accurate in your theorycrafting to compare the builds. Such approximations are no longer acceptable, and therefore with this thread I am more interested in statistical data generated from the game than numbers produced by the spreadsheets.

/wave fsb

 

• Aldriana

Rogue DPS spreadsheet has the problem you describe. Rogue Gear spreadsheet does actually take into account the fact that making more attacks will cause additional procs, so I think the effect you describe is not very large.

The problem with anecdotal data is that the dps output over a given fight can vary quite a bit from week to week, even with identical gear. I think the only way you're going to get data more accurate than the spreadsheets - even the DPS spreadsheet, and particularly the Gear spreadsheet - is by writing a very detailed attack simulator, which, as far as I know, does not exist at this time.

 

Ichichop

I agree and the idea has been tossed around on the boards a few times that I can remember. This topic should probably have it's own thread titled something like "Finding a method for obtaining extremely accurate DPS results".

Is there work being done on the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet to add in hemo? When you are talking about fights that can take up to 10 minutes, small inequalities in anecdotal data tend to start averaging themselves out. In terms of items like watery graves, those can be individually selected and parsed away with a few strategies such as: only comparing runs with the same number of graves or manually cutting out the grave time from the combat log and just analyzing periods of "non-interrupted" dps time. When a bit more statistical data comes in I believe that we will be able to make a very good comparison of the two builds.

/wave fsb

 

KillWighty

Hi Ichipop, Wightout here.

I've linked this site to my ongoing discussion about hemo as a competitive PvE build.

WoW Forums -> Hemo As a Competitive PvE build

Thank you for theorycrafting and providing actual WWS data regarding what I had a hunch about but not the actual math skills to do.

That said, based on the competitive work I link in the article, if the formulas and numbers work out correctly, I believe the point of inflection is actually lower than most people would think.

Keep up the good work!

 

London

I have actually written a fairly detailed rogue C++ simulator. I'm sure it's not perfect, since nobody else has been checking my work and the cycle 'AI' is pretty rough, but I believe it is accurate enough for me to base my gear and spec decisions on it. I would be more than happy to share the cpp text files with anyone who wants it (or if anyone wants to make a gui for it...) – but it is not very user friendly in its current format and you'd probably have to have a basic understanding of programming to do anything useful, since there is no real UI to insert hit, crit, ap, etc. You have to change constants in the code.

Anyway, I ran a few simulations and found that a hemo build can indeed be a viable form of raid dps, with 11/28/22 coming out ahead of other hemo builds. I plan to do a little more testing as I spec into hemo this week.

 

Ichichop

I added the following information to the page 1 math post on comparing 11/28/22 and 0/39/22 (or 0/40/21):

In regards to dropping the assassination tree to go deeper in combat:

Relentless strikes and ruthlessness are equivalent to 4/5 CP, so you are basically giving up 5% crit and on all your attacks and 2% extra damage to most bosses to get Adrenaline Rush which is a lackluster raiding talent:

If you have prep and AR you can probably AR three times on a normal boss fight. This is an extra 10k damage but you are giving up 2% damage and 5% crit which on a fight where you are doing 500-600k damage I can hardly justify as a 'win'.

/wave fsb

 

Triton

Well, this build does interest me and I'd be willing to give up a certain small % of my personal raid DPS for the sake of the Hemo buff and all the added utility, especially in PVP. I'm someone that likes to do a little bit of everything whether solo questing, small group PVE raiding, or PVP, and this could be a pretty strong build that would prevent me from having to respec between PVE and PVP sessions. My biggest concern is overly gimping myself on bleed-immune raid bosses, but I'm going to give the 11/28/22 sword spec a try for a week and see how I fare on the WWS reports relative to the other two rogues in my raid and my previous weeks' attempts.

 

• Shifft

I plan on respeccing if a Syphon drops, so I'll post numbers when that happens.

 

Trv

I will try this spec for sure.

The problem is: the slower weapon I have is Reflex Blades, and I'm raiding with 15/41/5 C Daggers, with the Malchazeen. Is it worth it?

 

saiyajinmaster

Would definitely have to say no, that's a huge spike downwards just in mainhand printed DPS alone.