Mideci

I certainly used Shiv on Julianne in Karazhan to miitigate the effect any missed heals have on her. Similarly, I've used it in Durnholde.

Critical? Probably not. But hardly awful.

 

aegris

Well, the reason i brought this up was that I know a rogue that uses it as part of their cycle and their DPS suffers accordingly. I never had a problem keeping a wound stack on Julianne just using the regular SS spam. I actually do find it quite aweful.

 

Nathe

The time when I think Shiv is most useful is when you can't poison your MH, ie: when you're grouped with a shaman. Giving up Windfury for any poison is a bad idea, so Shiv works nicely.

I also love using Crippling Poison Shivs in heroics if we are light on crowd control. A ranged player can easily hold aggro while I Shiv the mob often enough to keep the Crippling up on it.

There are quite a few places that Shiv is useful. They aren't always the most DPS-optimal, but Shiv is a utility talent, and your DPS suffers accordingly.

 

eksveaer

Only Sittuation that I can think about when it's very usefull is when wound poison is running out on bosses who's healing, e.g Illidan.

 

Trilly

I'll shiv on a few fights that require mobility or immediate poison procs. On Archimonde I try to land it as I'm airburst, to refresh my Deadly Stack. Then I hope I can get back in time before it fades. I do the same as I run out if a Doomfire comes through the melee area (often).

I shiv Mind-numbing during Reliquary phase 2, to make kicking the Spirit Shocks easier.

While I'm not sure if it makes a difference, I also shiv Wounding just as Naj'entus bubbles, to hopefully limit his healing before we can pop it. I honestly don't know if it changes things, but it's an old habit and I stick with it.

Lastly I keep my gladiator offhand with crippling on it for the shadow demons on Illidan, so I can get cripple on them immediately.

Sorry for the derail, back to hemo talk.

 

• Aldriana

Basically, whenever you need to keep a poison up; for instance, Mind-numbing on Reliquary Phase 2, Wound on Illidari Council/Illidan/Anetheron, and so on. It doesn't come up a *lot*, and in many cases (all except Illidari Council, basically) you can probably just have one of the other rogues present do it; but it is a consideration to keep in mind.

The other place I use Shiv occasionally is on Al'ar adds; my old guild had melee take the adds low and then either one CoSed rogue or a ranged DPS would finish it off. In the interest of helping the lone DPSer finish it off, I'd generally make a point to have both a 5 point rupture and a 5-stack of Deadly Poison running on the mob when I ran out; Shiv is a very useful tool for setting this up.

[/quote]

My instinct on the matter is as follows: you probably do want 1-2 rogues speccing Hemo for the debuff; and, on the whole, the damage loss is probably smaller for mace rogues switching to 11/21/29 (or similar) than it is for sword rogues switching to 11/28/22 (or similar). As such, the maximal benefit to the *raid* is probably to have the mace rogues go hemo and have the sword rogues stay combat; but I haven't actually run the numbers on such a thing in a week or two.

 

Wodahs

After getting fel rage, I use shiv to keep my deadly stack up and ticking for 850. Shiv for wound on Illidan and najentus, but other than that, I dont shiv much.

 

skorpeo

Dont forget about serrated blades ArP which buffs our white hits, even our OH hits. Combat Potency gives our OH hits a chance to proc +15 energy which relates to more SS damage. I would like to see somebody model OH with serrated blades vs OH with combat potency. It takes 2.67 combat potency procs to = extra SS. Im pulling my hair out at work today and cant really think about how much serrated blades buffs our OH right now.

 

Killars

Not to make this a shiv discussion but I actually shiv a tiny bit on every encounter. I use the ashtongue trinket so I usually only use 3or5 CP ruptures/SnD... When SnD is about to slip off as well as having DP at less than 4 seconds I tend to throw in a shiv to keep my cycle more consistant for Relentless Strike procs as well as Ashtongue trinket procs. With a 1.4 speed weapon its pretty cheap, and with my sword it still hits pretty hard while giving me my combo point for my cycle and keeping up my poison. Needless to say I don't use it very often and it's main use is definitely in PvP not PvE. O and we have a MS warrior so I typically never have wound on except in pvp. We also just have the warlocks use the curses to slow down the phase 2 casting time of RoS.

Back to the hemo discussion...
Yea the Combat Potency with Hemo isn't going to do very well considering the loss of Relentless Strikes, Malice, Ruthlessness, and Murder. I'd go as far as saying CP is barely better than Relentless Strikes just by itself, and if you don't agree with me look at WWS's of rogues on some BT fights like Teron, Bloodboil, or RoS where DPS is constant. You might see some spikes like with my previous posted SWS (850 CP energy - 625 RS) but the majority of my own and others I've seen were like 600 CP energy compared to 500 with Relentless Strikes. This is one of the reason why hemo may blow combat out of the water. With a much energy efficient spam attack and still maintaining RS and having all the other dmg abilities, Hemo is going to probably be the new raid spec. (11/27/23 FTW!)

 

Zure

Related to offhand speed being less important, does anyone know how much dps The Night Blade's proc in the offhand gives (as in what is the average armor penetrated while using the weapon in the offhand)?

This seems relevant for those of us who will be using a mace in the main hand, less so for sword wielders I'd imagine.

 

• Aldriana

This is a pretty minor effect. Serrated Blades is just a static multiplier to all damage. It does increase white damage (from both hands), as well as yellow damage, and all by the same amount; hence, it doesn't appreciably increase the importance of damage from any one source.

 

tenaki

And given that it is a mid-tier 3 point talent, you'd expect it to be less awesome than a top-tier 5 point talent.

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cablo

Since in 2.3 Relentless strikes procs only on melee attacks aka. rupture, not snd, doesnt it take away the charm from using 11 points on to achieve that?

Regarding to that, wouldnt this be viable mace-hemo-spec?

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

 

• Aldriana

1) The change is to Ruthlessness, not Relentless Strikes
2) As far as I know, the change only affects Deadly Throw; Slice and Dice still works just fine, last I heard.
3) Even were it the case that Relentless Strikes didn't work on Slice and Dice - which would amount to roughly a 50% nerf to the talent for SS and Hemo rogues - it would *still* be one of the better talent points you could spend, and thus *still* most likely worth getting. Particularly since the points in Murder, Ruthlessness, and Malice are hardly wasted.

 

Zaazel

Just logged on to the PRT to test it, SnD still triggers Relentless Strikes as usual.

 

• Vandemar

The change is that Ruthlessness no longer works on Deadly Throw. Relentless Strikes is unchanged regarding Deadly Throw, and Slice n Dice still works with both Ruthlessness and Relentless Strikes.

 

Dominus

Well, basically what it comes down to is you're losing a very heavy regen talent for not that much in combat. Even the 11/28/22 or 11/27/23 builds don't lose the assassination talents. Those 11 points are best spent in the assassination tree, beyond that, for the best PvE build, you're looking at the difference between 5/5 sword spec + 1/2 dirty deeds, or 4/5 sword spec and 2/2 dirty deeds.

 

Mesa

Having being a Combat Swords rogue for much of the past 18 months I am pretty keen to see how the new hemo build performs as a fresh alternative but there are a couple of things that trouble me:

1. I understand the discussion between whether 11/27/23 or 11/28/22 (swapping the 4/5 Sword spec and DD point around) and lots of posts have variations on that theme, but using the 2.3.0.3 DPS spreadsheet, a 11/20/30 build (with 5/5 Deadliness and an extra 10% AP) is indicating far more DPS. Is there another reason why this build appears to be less favourable? Sure you don't get Blade Flurry with 11/20/30 which adds a nice bit of increased attack speed, but what have I missed? Other attack speed modifiers like SnD, haste and trinket procs would still apply to both build types too.

2. Hemo by definition works on foes that bleed and against them a hemo build would seem to outperform a combat build, but what are the options against bleed immune foes (much of Kara, Hydros, VR etc). Do I use hemo still or revert to a (now untalented and relatively inefficient) SS and Evisc attack cycle? For instances that contain a mix of bleeders and none bleeders, does the balance favour a hemo build or would a combat build still win?

 

• songster

Hemo (including the debuff) works on all mobs, it's only rupture that can't be used on bleed-immune mobs. Rupture is a fractionally higher percentage of your DPS in a Hemo build due to Serrated Blades, but since Serrated blades affects all other damage through armor pen as well, the difference isn't as much as the 30% modifier would imply. All in all, Hemo tri-spec should still edge out combat even on bleed immune mobs/bosses.

I'm not clear why you say the sheet shows 11/20/30 as better than 11/27/23 for combat swords - that's not what I found. For maces and claws, then yes, 11/20/30 or 11/21/29 are the best choices. For swords, it's a much closer call. Do you have weirdly low hit, or weirdly high AP? If so, that might tilt the balance away from sword spec, but only because of nonoptimal gear choices. Some strategic regemming might change things.

Edited to add: From my post on page 28, the four tri-spec builds for combat swords actually had very little to choose between them.

 

Aniki

When considering a 11/20/30 or a 11/21/29 the thing you should as well keep in mind is that you can stick to whatever the best weapon you can get for it, regardless of the type of weapon. This consideration in most cases can help increase DPS since you cant always find a sword as good as a fist or a dagger for offhand or even a suitable mainhand.

So you might be able to optimize and switch weapons in a more effective way than sticking to pure sword spec.

 

Azaziel

Well agility is better than hit for deadliness spec, Hit is better for sword spec. Atleast with my gear, but it makes sense that this would hold true even at higher gear levels (Im T4/T5). Even with dual S3 swords the 11/21/29 beats out the 11/27/23 spec for me if I dont regem. But I have always liked agility so maybe has more than the average rogue at my level compared to hit. To get a good conclusion I think you should regem agi for 11/21/29 and hit for 11/27/23 when you compare them in the spreadsheet, it will give you a much more accurate picture of their diffrent value for your gear.

 

Shinedred

I am not sure if you already take it into consideration, but Mangle debuff from feral druids increases all bleed damage by 30% (Rupture).
Not sure if it stacks with Serrated Blades.

 

Zurgat

It should in theory.
We always have at least 1 feral druid ensure the buff is active.

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Headhuntress

Mangle and Serrated Blades do stack.

 

finduluin

As anyone tried a Fist-Spec hémo build intead of Sword Spec ?

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

[Talon of Azshara] is equal to [Talon of the Phoenix] regarding damage, overall speed, but I prefer fist weapon btw.

Any clue ?

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