Killars

Few responses since it seems I've neglected my trolling yesturday =P

First SnD most definitely in not effected by either Ruthlessness or Relentless Strikes. The whole reason for the Ruthlessness nerf was to make Deadly Throw an unspammable PvP ability, which I think is fair.

Hemo on bleed immune targets is still as effective, as said only rupture is unable to be used. Serrated Blades does in fact stack with mangle AND dirty deeds and more importently it stacks in a multiplicitive way. I myself would expect around a 450 rupture tick with the boss under 35% which is pretty ridiculous on a 5 points rupture doing I think 8 ticks (3600).

As originally stated and many people have to come agree, the new PvE spec for hemo will be 11/27/23. That spec might not only be the spec of one or two rogues, but probably all of your rogues the way I see it. This is most definitely the end of daggers completely in PvE, except for the few that really really want to hold onto them (I admire you guys). I also tested if the daggers we're normalized for hemo in case people were wondering, and they are.

 

Darlal

Please be clear, when you say "SnD most definitely in not effected by either Ruthlessness or Relentless Strikes", do you mean that SnD can no longer proc either one? That would be a fairly large dps hit.

 

weirdaljr

Here is a poll to combine everyone's PRE-Live server 2.3 opinions on Hemo Vs Swords personal RAID DPS:

Poll: Hemo Vs Combat Swords - What will put out the most RAID personal DPS

Please vote so we can get a reading.

 

Left

I think he means that patch 2.3 will not change how Ruthlessness or Relentless Strikes behave with respect to SnD. The only change is for the Ruthlessness talent and only with respect to Deadly throw, as far as I know.

 

Nathe

I'm guessing I already know the answer to this, but has anyone tested a +7 damage MH enchant vs. Mongoose with this new spec? With Hemo now 125% weapon damage, it seems +7 would be slightly more valuable than before, though Mongoose probably still comes out ahead with the big AP buff that it gives.

 

Left

Tested, no. The Spreadsheet model, however, shows a loss of approximately 14 DPS unbuffed (~1%) for me at my gear level (4/5 T4, Mostly Kara-level epics) when using a 11/27/23 build and having a mainhand +7 damage instead of Mongoose.

 

HengeMaker

Just to be sure: for maces, the +AP talent trumps the mace spec, right?
so 11/21/29 is optimal for Hemo maces?

 

Nathe

That seems to be the consensus:

http://elitistjerks.com/542766-post819.html

 

• Vulajin

You can't decide something like that by a majority vote. Just because a lot of people believe something, doesn't make it true. Now, I happen to believe that Hemo will do superior raid DPS, since its personal DPS will be roughly equivalent to combat and the debuff contribution will push it over. And obviously plenty of people have been swayed to this line of thought. But regardless, having those plenty of people click "yes" in a poll is a waste of everyone's time. You either believe the theorycraft or you don't.

 

Killars

Yes, that is correct. SnD will still trigger all the talents it used to. The only thing changing at all is that Deadly Throw will not be spammable via Ruthlessness, I said that already but I can copy and paste =P


You left out 11/27/23! Screw 11/28/22 sheesh!


Realize that in 2.3 you'll want to get the Executioner enchant (procs like Mongoose except it doesn't stack with itself, and instead has 840 armor pen as a buff) to be on your MH to proc more and you wouldn't put weapon damage on your offhand. So basically everyone will want MH executioner and OH Mongoose enchant. Making any interest in +7 weapon damage seem silly.

 

weirdaljr

Not true. If you read the poll it was for peoples opinions. Does someone opinions ever make something true? No. This is JUST to see which way more people are currently thinking, based on Theorycraft, and test before the patch goes live and we all have real raid experiance with it.

 

◊ Kalman

No, it's to see which way people are thinking. Most of the opinions won't be based on theorycraft, because most people don't understand theorycraft. They'll either be based on a personal belief, or on faith in one of the theorycrafters.

 

Killars

uhh was just clicking some of your armorys and seen Shadycreeper's gear... WTF!?!?! 337 hit WITH WE 2/2 with more weapon skill from those terrible loves... holy crap why why why!!! You're making my eyes bleed!

Lost the hit man!

 

Dontmindme

Until I see more testing verses actual bosses, I'm not forming an opinion. All we have now are the spreadsheet and testing verses very under-leveled mobs. To be honest, the spreadsheet still has not been updated to reflect the additive nature of Opportunity, Aggression, and Surprise Attacks. When applied, it will drop Combat swords (as modeled on the sheet) somewhere about 0.1%. It's not much, but it's something. Not to mention that some people are still assuming Dirty Deeds is going to be a 35% buff which it likely isn't.

I plan to take a more serious look at the spreadsheet this weekend (if its not yanked before I can get to it) and maybe do some mechanics testing to see if other factors are additive as opposed to multiplicative and whether they are correctly modeled on the spreadsheet.

Although, all that said, I have looked at some at the Hemo formulations and I haven't seen any miscalculations so far.

 

◊ Hanos

Might be seeing how high he can get regarding the +hit change coming on Tuesday, which is something I have personally played with different gear combinations to check. If that isn't the case, and that is the gear he plays with... yeah he is about 30-31 points over the hit cap.

Personally I am more amused that he is wearing Shadowprowler's Chestguard, yet has BT Gems in his Egdewalkers and Belt of Deep Shadows.

Just Checked - Neutral with Ashtongue and Scales of the Sand, looks like he is a very wealthy player, who farms Kara.

 

Killars

I have full access to hit gear and I have 273 with not a single 10+hit gem. Even if that is a test that must be an expensive one, but I doubt it is. The difference between 270-280 hit - 305 hit is very small as far as a DPS inc as far as I've seen. This also brings me to my next little topic. Come 2.3, when we don't have CP, I think hit will become even less effective (Hemo wise). Sure you still want to hit as much as possible and, and you still want SS procs and other things of that nature, but CP being gone is a huge reason for me to lower my hit a bit in exchange for other stats.

 

Kenamoto

Curious question; I'm not able to acquire a decent MH mace to test with on ptrs, But, If you went a 11/28/22 spec and got a MH mace with an OH sword. Would the benefit of OH sword procs affecting MH hemo strikes be worth it or is it better to just go 2 swords with an 11/28/22 build or with a Mace/sword not benefit hemo?

 

weirdaljr

Everything seems pretty right in this quote except the word "Very"

I spent a bit of money to raise my +hit a bit for 2.3 without sacrificing too much AP with my gear level. I only have kara and Gruul on farm, and the gear you saw in that armory was for 2.3 raiding. Does anyone think there is something wrong with my 337 hit for 2.3? I usually do 1agi = 1.15 hit = 2 ap - for max RAID DPS... as long as im below the cap (2.3 cap prep)

 

Valdez

I don't know if this is old news here, but: Hemorrhage is now 132-133% weapon damage, up from 125%. They patched last night.

 

• Aldriana

You sure that's not just the 4/5 T6 talking? Since that's been known for a couple of weeks.

 

sltyntzhrt

What kind of trinkets should we run with as hemo these days? As DST is still an amazing for a Combat build, the 20% weapon speed and 40ap still cant seem to be better then maybe the Ashtongue rep trinket or tsunami(for pure stats). Also WSC might become obsolete with increases armor pen that could theoretically become 0 with CoR,Sunder,FF, and passive armor pen making WSC's 1000 armor debuff way overneeded.

I assume MotB would be a better replacement trinket as a smaller but longer uptime debuff.

 

Valdez

You're right, my mistake. I didn't remember it changing my tooltips last time I logged in. Oh well!

 

Kyreen

I would like some feedback on this too, currently i am fist/sword spec Mainhanding Talon of the Phoenix and offhand S2 sword. I'm considering changing to hemo in 2.3 but dont know which direction to go.
Fist/sword doesnt seem viable for hemo (is it?) so i need to know if there is much difference between going fist/fist or sword/sword, or to stay fist/sword.

 

Jojo_el_Mono

I'd also be very interested on some feedback regarding this. I might be being somewhat dense and/or stupid, but I'm not able to see where the 4-5% crit from fist spec would be worse than the 8% increased attack power (although, my attack power is only around 1650 currently). Currently, I plan to spec 11/27/23 with 4/5 fist spec and 2/2 WE. Am I misguided in my math (or just not factoring in something that I should be) or would this actually end up being better than the extra 8% attack power?

 

Ashere

For 4/5 fist spec: Divide your AP by 14.5 to get a rough AP damage estimate, then add that to your weapon's avarage base damage to get a total damage estimate, multiply this by 1.04 and make a note of the result.

For AP spec: Multiply your AP by 1.08, divide the result by 14.5 to get a rough AP damage estimate, add your weapon's avarage base damage, make another note.

Now compare the results.
The strong point about Combat is Weapon Expertise here, it's not any weapon spec. So if you really want to make a good decision, then you have to work out (WE + Weapon Spec) vs (DD + Deadliness)