[Rogue]The Combat vs Hemo Point of Inflection - Page 35

Killars · 11/10/07, 3:50 PM

I'm not a spreed sheet whiz, but I can't see how 8% AP (168 roughly for me) is better than WE 2/2 and 4/5 Sword Spec. Sword spec I think comes out to be 3-4% of my damage on most fights, I don't know how that translates into AP, but add that 3-4% with WE and together those are 2 pretty strong talents. I dunno, I think AP after a certain amount loses its effectiveness per point, but again I'm no spreed sheet whiz.

Ashere · 11/10/07, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Killars

I think AP after a certain amount loses its effectiveness per point, but again I'm no spreed sheet whiz.

Damage scales linear to your AP, so far no hardcap has been found, every X points of AP is always worth Y damage, so no, it never loses effectiveness. The only reason not to go for more AP is to bring other stats on par, not because AP becomes less effective. More AP is always better, as long as your hit doesn't suffer and drop below a workable tresshold.

Crit relies on these two, there is a huge difference between critting with 1500 AP or critting with 500 AP. And misses won't crit anyway. But, crit relies slightly more on hitting then on AP. Dagger rogues hit faster, so they sometimes rely a bit more on AP again, to improve their base damage and thus their crits, even if they'd occasionally miss.

Haste takes this even further, it depends very much on the previous three: AP, hit and crit. You can deck out a rogue with tons of haste modifiers, but if he doesn't have much damage to deal from AP in the first place, never crits, or worst of all, never actually hits, then you could try to get his warglave to 1 second speed, but it'd be useless. You'll also already want some crit rate before bothering with this. You're increasing your attackspeed, but crit just is a lot easier to get, you don't want to drop 5% chance in critting to increase your attackspeed by 2% You'd basically drop in DPS by somewhere between 2 and 3 percent.

It's just that at some point, some stat may hardly increase anymore, while another is plenty available. In such a case, you might benefit from dropping one stat by 1 or 2 percent, to raise another by a good amount like 5%. And AP is exactly one of the things where that's the case. In BT for example, it raises only marginally, while there's a lot of haste laying around.

drumbum · 11/10/07, 5:34 PM

Originally Posted by Ashere

Crit relies on these two, there is a huge difference between critting with 1500 AP or critting with 500 AP. And misses won't crit anyway. But, crit relies slightly more on hitting then on AP. Dagger rogues hit faster, so they sometimes rely a bit more on AP again, to improve their base damage and thus their crits, even if they'd occasionally miss.

Not exactly. The speed of attacks doesn't have any effect on the overall sustained white damage you do. There's no difference in comparing daggers versus swords in regard to the importance of the stats. (However, the difference in weapon specialization talents does change this somewhat.)

Hit chance and crit chance are NOT directly coupled (i.e., improving one does not make the other more valuable).

Jojo_el_Mono · 11/10/07, 6:48 PM

Thank you for the responses guys. I appreciate the help =)

For 4/5 fist spec: Divide your AP by 14.5 to get a rough AP damage estimate, then add that to your weapon's avarage base damage to get a total damage estimate, multiply this by 1.04 and make a note of the result.

For AP spec: Multiply your AP by 1.08, divide the result by 14.5 to get a rough AP damage estimate, add your weapon's avarage base damage, make another note.

From this, I got 494.90 for 4/5 fist spec, and 484.86 for 4/5 Deadliness (1631 AP, 253.5 average MH, 109.88 average OH after factoring in dual wield penalty). I would also need to lose Weapon Expertise to be able to get 4/5 Deadliness, so it would seem that fist spec would be better to take than Deadliness.

As far as Weapon Expertise and Dirty Deeds goes, WE will add 2.5% dodge and parry reduction, so 2.5% DPS increase, and I think Dirty Deeds would be roughly 2.4% increase from the mini-execute part alone, and then you get the additional portion that reduces the energy cost of openers. So if you had to make a choice, I think Dirty Deeds would be better, but getting both is just awesome =D

Seeten · 11/10/07, 7:14 PM

Originally Posted by aegris

This is offtopic but I just have to ask someone who's answer will be respected:

When do you actually want to use shiv in PVE?

On topic:

Would a mace rogue benefit more from hemo in 2.3 or would they be better off doing the standard combat spec? We have a quite a few mace rogues in my guild, either by choice or RNG, and im curious to see what you guys thought.

I shiv Mind Numb onto healers on Solarian?

I shiv Mind Numb onto the casters in Mag's lair?

I imagine any other healer that isnt immune to mind numb and heals/casts something nasty will get a shiv, too.

Xanthi · 11/10/07, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by sltyntzhrt

Also WSC might become obsolete with increases armor pen that could theoretically become 0 with CoR,Sunder,FF, and passive armor pen making WSC's 1000 armor debuff way overneeded.

I assume MotB would be a better replacement trinket as a smaller but longer uptime debuff.

From [RAID] Boss armor values
"With 4010 armor taken off by outside debuffs, the player themselves only need to deal with 2190 or 3690 armor. It should be trivial to see what benefit certain items have then."

I tried to calculate the max armor penetration you could get from gear (ignoring serrated blade) and it came out to be 4051 if everything procced, 3051 without WSC. Assuming no procs at all that's 1911 ArP, pretty close to the lower end cap.

head Vengeful Gladiator's Leather Helm 84
neck Choker of Serrated Blades 175
shoulder Slayer's Shoulderpads 175
back Dory's Embrace 112
chest Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass 210
bracers -none- 0
gloves Slayer's Handguards 175
belt Bladeangel's Money Belt 77
pants Shady Dealer's Pantaloons 175
boots -none- 0
r1 Stormrage Signet Ring 126
r2 Signet of Primal Wrath 126
t1 Madness of the Betrayer 300
t2 Warp-Spring Coil 1000
mh Boundless Agony 210
oh Prowler's Strikeblade 140
range Ancient Sin'dorei Longbow 126
enchant Executioner 840

Looking at the gear choice though, some of it is rather unfeasable for raiding and although i still get to keep my 2pc t6 bonus, i doubt it'll be worth it to stack so much armor penetration at the cost of other stats. With min-maxing swords though it's likely that i'll only have around 602 passive armor penetration (no proc/serrated blade). With procs accounting for 2140 ArP (motb+executioner+wsc) it looks like there is still room for wsc in high armor encounters, making it very situational at best with executioner being the new MH enchant of choice for pve. Sorry if my post seems like its going in a circle, but my initial thought was that it's not possible to reach 0 armour, but i guess i proved myself wrong.

When do you actually want to use shiv in PVE?

You're not gonna be using it in your dps cycle, but it has a few situational uses in pve to make it worth keeping on your bar. For example at illidan, for p1/3/5 i put wounding on my OH and shiv to stack 5 (esp p3/5) or to refresh the stack if it looks like its in danger of dropping off, while in p4 i switch to my spare OH which has crippling poison and shiv the demons before killing it. At RoS i shiv mind-numbing when it's in danger of dropping. Ultimately, shiv is pretty useless in pve if you're looking at pure snd/rupture cycles but has its situational use when you need the poisons to be up.

Neckface · 11/11/07, 12:13 AM

Some more data on the 11/28/22 vs. 11/27/23 question, "Which is more valuable: a point of Sword Spec or a point of the new Dirty Deeds?"

Methodology:
I went through the WWS data for a recent night in Hyjal, and for each boss I computed the benefit of one point of sword spec and the theoretical benefit of one point of DD, if I had it. (I'm currently 11/28/22).

SS: I simply divided the number of sword spec procs by 5 (keeping the decimal) and multiplied by average mainhand damage. Normally it's hard to tease apart mainhand from offhand damage, but fortunately pre-2.3 Hemo = normal white hit. The product of those two numbers is a reasonable approximation of the contribution from SS.

DD: For Dirty Deeds I added up rupture and hemo damage, then multiplied by 0.035 (i.e 35% times 10%). That product is approximately what a single point of DD could be expected to contribute.

Lastly, I divided the DD number by the SS number, to get a percentage of how much the Dirty Deeds would have contributed relative to Sword Spec, point for point. The results:

Rage: 57% (i.e., DD would have been 57% as good as SS for this fight)
Anatheron: 86%
Kaz'rogal: 76%
Azgalor: 89%

It should be noted that on Azgalor I was on Doomguard duty the entire fight.

Edit: Oops. I forgot to include crit rate in the sword spec estimate. Numbers above are now revised.

Also, in terms of overall impact on dps, moving a point do DD in those 4 fights would have lowered overall dps by: 0.75%, 0.15%, 0.33%, and 0.11%

Platinumj · 11/11/07, 1:41 PM

My question would be for someone like myself. The best main hand I have is the Syphon of the Nathrezim. So once the patch drops I'm trying to figure out what my best spec would be. I was thinking 11/20/30 that way I don't have to worry about which weapon type I'm using, I get 2 point DD plus 10% AP. I just don't know if that is more or less then what I'd get by running either 11/28/22 with 5/5 mace spec, or 11/27/22 with only 4/5 mace spec getting 2/2 WE and 2/2 DD.

Anyone have the same issue and done the math into this?

Tosa · 11/11/07, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by Platinumj

My question would be for someone like myself. The best main hand I have is the Syphon of the Nathrezim. So once the patch drops I'm trying to figure out what my best spec would be. I was thinking 11/20/30 that way I don't have to worry about which weapon type I'm using, I get 2 point DD plus 10% AP. I just don't know if that is more or less then what I'd get by running either 11/28/22 with 5/5 mace spec, or 11/27/22 with only 4/5 mace spec getting 2/2 WE and 2/2 DD.

Anyone have the same issue and done the math into this?

If you're using maces, you'll lose less dps with AP-hemo than Mace Spec-hemo.

songster · 11/11/07, 4:17 PM

Originally Posted by Platinumj

My question would be for someone like myself. The best main hand I have is the Syphon of the Nathrezim. So once the patch drops I'm trying to figure out what my best spec would be. I was thinking 11/20/30 that way I don't have to worry about which weapon type I'm using, I get 2 point DD plus 10% AP. I just don't know if that is more or less then what I'd get by running either 11/28/22 with 5/5 mace spec, or 11/27/22 with only 4/5 mace spec getting 2/2 WE and 2/2 DD.

Anyone have the same issue and done the math into this?

Read back a couple of pages. The best build with maces seems to be 11/20/30 - though the situational use of BF on multiple targets means 11/21/29 is likely to edge it out in practice.

Leoki · 11/11/07, 6:10 PM

Would the 11/2x/2x build be better than say 0/20/41 in all cases? I myself do not have any swords but i have syphon and boundless agony(i am mutilate specc atm and use syphon for arena with arena offhand).
I was thinking once you reach a certain amount of agi and ap and if you have high ap party buffs with enhance shaman and so on if the sub talents would be better. I could then use the dagger in offhand, the extra armor ignore from boundless would bring me close to 0 armor on some bosses.
Since hemo is only 35 energy cycles dont seem to be a problem. This specc would give the biggest white damage possible and thats what rogue damage is but would that be enough. I have 600 agi and 1930 ap unbuffed. I know it has already been said 11/2x/2x is generaly better but doesnt the sub specc become better with more ap and agi?

ekval · 11/11/07, 6:13 PM

Originally Posted by Leoki

Would the 11/2x/2x build be better than say 0/20/41 in all cases? I myself do not have any swords but i have syphon and boundless agony(i am mutilate specc atm and use syphon for arena with arena offhand).
I was thinking once you reach a certain amount of agi and ap and if you have high ap party buffs with enhance shaman and so on if the sub talents would be better. I could then use the dagger in offhand, the extra armor ignore from boundless would bring me close to 0 armor on some bosses.
Since hemo is only 35 energy cycles dont seem to be a problem. This specc would give the biggest white damage possible and thats what rogue damage is but would that be enough. I have 600 agi and 1930 ap unbuffed. I know it has already been said 11/2x/2x is generaly better but doesnt the sub specc become better with more ap and agi?

You are missing too many good Assassination talents while going deeper in Subtlely tree (Malice, Murder, RS, Ruthlessness).

Faytte · 11/11/07, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Seeten

I shiv Mind Numb onto healers on Solarian?

I shiv Mind Numb onto the casters in Mag's lair?

I imagine any other healer that isnt immune to mind numb and heals/casts something nasty will get a shiv, too.

You dont need to shiv the priest on Solarean. Its a slow enough heal and they are also stun able. Kick one heal, stun the other heal, repeat.

Terala · 11/12/07, 3:17 AM

Hello Everyone,
First of all i want to say this is my First poste and i am not that good at english especially at the grammer so i hope you can overlook this

Somone above stated that at some point the AP increase on the gear gets smaller while you can sum up other stats more efficiently. i wanted to know where you think this point will come up? atm i am geard mostly t4 with 2 items TK, 2 items Hyjal which results in 27% crit 232 Hit Rateing and 1859 AP, Specced Fist combat.

With the patch come i plan on going for either 11/21/29 or 11/20/30. so I will loose about 5% crit which i need to compensate somehow, i´d like to do this without dropping any AP if Possible.

Assumeing that i´ll have a Fixed Group For ZA and that i´ll be able to snatch what dropps of the table in Hyjal/BT how do you think i should focus on stats given the Spec i am planning to do?

Also i´d like to know if Executnor is in everycase the preferable mainhand enchant once 2.3 is out. Because at the moment i am useing Talon of the Phoenix as MH and dont´t see an upgrade comeing soon. Since i already enchanted it with Mongoose, will it be worthwhile to replace the enchant?

Eracia64 · 11/12/07, 4:04 AM

I got a few questions, It may already have been said, but since here is 35 pages I dont have a clear overview.

I'm playing a rogue, mainly doing pvp, and with this upcoming patch I am starting to wonder, what would do most damage; a Sinister Strike or a Hemo?

I used to be 8/31/22, now 17/44/0. Reason I changed was that i felt the damage from hemo was too low compared to the sinister strike, but if the hemo damage gets buffed then the hybrid combat-sub build might be able to do the same damage as Combat-assa?

Further more, what is the optimal dps cycle for a combat sword spec? And combat dagger?

Vesper · 11/12/07, 9:34 AM

Originally Posted by Leoki

Would the 11/2x/2x build be better than say 0/20/41 in all cases? [...]

Does your classleader allow you to spec full subtlety build then?

◊ Hanos · 11/12/07, 9:49 AM

For all the people asking about certain spec/gear combos, have you checked the spreadsheet? There is an excellent tool available for you to plug in your gear and play with the different specs. At this point the highest DPS Spec for Swords appears to be 4/5 Sword Spec, 2/2 Weapon Expertise, 2/2 Dirty Deeds, for Maces you are better off with Deadliness then with Mace Spec (although Mace Spec is nice for PvP), and I don't think there is a level of gear where Shadowstep will pass the value of the Assassination talents.

• Rerox · 11/12/07, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Hanos

For all the people asking about certain spec/gear combos, have you checked the spreadsheet? There is an excellent tool available for you to plug in your gear and play with the different specs.

And here you go with the URL (final Version of 2.3 Sheet available): http://rogue.raidcal.com/RogueDPS_2_3_0_3.xls

Platinumj · 11/12/07, 10:36 AM

It doesn't include Syphon

I guess switching in another mace will round about work too.

Katane · 11/12/07, 11:00 AM

Some more data on the 11/28/22 vs. 11/27/23 question, "Which is more valuable: a point of Sword Spec or a point of the new Dirty Deeds?"

Methodology:
I went through the WWS data for a recent night in Hyjal, and for each boss I computed the benefit of one point of sword spec and the theoretical benefit of one point of DD, if I had it. (I'm currently 11/28/22).

SS: I simply divided the number of sword spec procs by 5 (keeping the decimal) and multiplied by average mainhand damage. Normally it's hard to tease apart mainhand from offhand damage, but fortunately pre-2.3 Hemo = normal white hit. The product of those two numbers is a reasonable approximation of the contribution from SS.

DD: For Dirty Deeds I added up rupture and hemo damage, then multiplied by 0.035 (i.e 35% times 10%). That product is approximately what a single point of DD could be expected to contribute.

Lastly, I divided the DD number by the SS number, to get a percentage of how much the Dirty Deeds would have contributed relative to Sword Spec, point for point. The results:

Rage: 57% (i.e., DD would have been 57% as good as SS for this fight)
Anatheron: 86%
Kaz'rogal: 76%
Azgalor: 89%

It should be noted that on Azgalor I was on Doomguard duty the entire fight.

Edit: Oops. I forgot to include crit rate in the sword spec estimate. Numbers above are now revised.

Also, in terms of overall impact on dps, moving a point do DD in those 4 fights would have lowered overall dps by: 0.75%, 0.15%, 0.33%, and 0.11%

Im in a guild who has BT and Hyjal on farm, I also have almost full tier6 and both warglaves, im a lil behind on the hemo thing but overrall is the dps more then say combat cookie cutter like we been doing for months now? Also what rotation would yall use on a boss hemo wise?

Keegantir · 11/12/07, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Hanos

For all the people asking about certain spec/gear combos, have you checked the spreadsheet? There is an excellent tool available for you to plug in your gear and play with the different specs. At this point the highest DPS Spec for Swords appears to be 4/5 Sword Spec, 2/2 Weapon Expertise, 2/2 Dirty Deeds, for Maces you are better off with Deadliness then with Mace Spec (although Mace Spec is nice for PvP), and I don't think there is a level of gear where Shadowstep will pass the value of the Assassination talents.

What I am very amused by is how people have proven, in this thread, mathematically that 5/5 Sword Spec, 1/2 Dirty Deeds is better than 4/5 Sword, 2/2 DD, yet people still think it is the other way around because the spreadsheet says so. Yes, the spreadsheets are great, but when hard math proves them wrong, then it is ok to go against the spreadsheet.

Logically you would think that 2/2 DD would be better but DD only affects yellow dmg, while Sword spec is on almost all attacks.

Killars · 11/12/07, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Xanthi

From [RAID] Boss armor values
"With 4010 armor taken off by outside debuffs, the player themselves only need to deal with 2190 or 3690 armor. It should be trivial to see what benefit certain items have then."

I tried to calculate the max armor penetration you could get from gear (ignoring serrated blade) and it came out to be 4051 if everything procced, 3051 without WSC. Assuming no procs at all that's 1911 ArP, pretty close to the lower end cap.

head Vengeful Gladiator's Leather Helm 84
neck Choker of Serrated Blades 175
shoulder Slayer's Shoulderpads 175
back Dory's Embrace 112
chest Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass 210
bracers -none- 0
gloves Slayer's Handguards 175
belt Bladeangel's Money Belt 77
pants Shady Dealer's Pantaloons 175
boots -none- 0
r1 Stormrage Signet Ring 126
r2 Signet of Primal Wrath 126
t1 Madness of the Betrayer 300
t2 Warp-Spring Coil 1000
mh Boundless Agony 210
oh Prowler's Strikeblade 140
range Ancient Sin'dorei Longbow 126
enchant Executioner 840

Looking at the gear choice though, some of it is rather unfeasable for raiding and although i still get to keep my 2pc t6 bonus, i doubt it'll be worth it to stack so much armor penetration at the cost of other stats. With min-maxing swords though it's likely that i'll only have around 602 passive armor penetration (no proc/serrated blade). With procs accounting for 2140 ArP (motb+executioner+wsc) it looks like there is still room for wsc in high armor encounters, making it very situational at best with executioner being the new MH enchant of choice for pve. Sorry if my post seems like its going in a circle, but my initial thought was that it's not possible to reach 0 armour, but i guess i proved myself wrong.

You're not gonna be using it in your dps cycle, but it has a few situational uses in pve to make it worth keeping on your bar. For example at illidan, for p1/3/5 i put wounding on my OH and shiv to stack 5 (esp p3/5) or to refresh the stack if it looks like its in danger of dropping off, while in p4 i switch to my spare OH which has crippling poison and shiv the demons before killing it. At RoS i shiv mind-numbing when it's in danger of dropping. Ultimately, shiv is pretty useless in pve if you're looking at pure snd/rupture cycles but has its situational use when you need the poisons to be up.

I'll answer you with my own quote a few pages back =P

Each boss has either 6200 or 7700 armor, that was posted a long time ago. Using raid debuffs, which should be up by default, you take these armors down to 2190 and 3690 via Sunder, CoR, and FF (-4010). So with some armor pen PvE gear, nothing crazy, you'd have 476 passive armor pen (shoulder/gloves/ring) leaving you with a static 1714 and 3214. Add MotB (-300) or WSC (-1000) proc to go along with Executioner (-840) and you'd be at either -126 and 1850 with WSC only or 574 and 2074 with MotB only. Obviously you wouldn't want to use WSC on a low armor boss after it was tested, but you can see how Serrated Blades can take you over the cap. Regardless, as I said the closer you get to the cap without going over makes armor pen increasingly amazing also making Serrated Blades and amazing talent that needs to be recognized as such.

For you imaginative viewing you can also look at these other ways of getting to the armor cap even on the high armor mobs. Here is a list of all the "raid viable" armor pen items I can find. You'll see I was modest in the above example, I kept most of the gear that decreased my hit and other stats out of my example.

Procs
Warp Spring Coil - 1000
Madness of the Betrayer - 300
Executioner - 840

Passive Gear
Stormrage Signet Ring - 126
Signet of Primal Wrath (ZA Ring) - 126
Choker of Serrated Blades - 175

Slayer's Handguards - 175
Slayer's Shoulderbads - 175
Shady Dealer's Pantaloons - 175
Bladeangel's Money Belt (ZA Belt) - 77
Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass (ZA Chest) - 210

Boundless Agony - 210
Dagger of Bad Mojo(ZA Dagger) - 140
Prowler's Strikeblade(ZA Dagger) - 140
Ancient Sin'dorei Longbow(ZA Bow) - 126

Your base value after debuffs is leaving out something, I assume CoR which by far is prob the curse that give the most raid DPS improvement in our guild. For me, I'd be hemo taking off another 560 I believe so thad change things a bit also. Basically for a person like me with just a few pieces of armor pen gear, all being the best for their socket anyway, id use the MoTB all the time with either the Ashtongue trinket on low armor bosses, and on high armor bosses id use MoTB with WSC. I don't have a DST btw, but if I did id prob use that with WSC considering how ridiculous armor pen scales. The two trinket MoTB and WSC have a total of 41 hit and in 2.3 that will be valuable anyway, so I see no reason using both trinkets as they theoretically get buffed when you go hemo (because of armor pen scaleing off itself).

Killars · 11/12/07, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Keegantir

What I am very amused by is how people have proven, in this thread, mathematically that 5/5 Sword Spec, 1/2 Dirty Deeds is better than 4/5 Sword, 2/2 DD, yet people still think it is the other way around because the spreadsheet says so. Yes, the spreadsheets are great, but when hard math proves them wrong, then it is ok to go against the spreadsheet.

Logically you would think that 2/2 DD would be better but DD only affects yellow dmg, while Sword spec is on almost all attacks.

Sword spec in total of the fight does 3-4% for me over the entire fight. Your telling me losing 1% chance to proc is going to drastically drop that percent more than gaining 10 on all special attacks for more than 1/3 of the fight... I dunno about that one. O and I myself don't go by the spreed sheet for this stuff, to me things like this have too many variables to just spread sheet. I may be a theorycrafter and a speculator, but I don't blindly look at a spread sheet. I also don't think armor pen stacking is correctly shown on the sheet as well as the new Hemo specs, but hey thats just ignorant me.

• Vulajin · 11/12/07, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Killars

Sword spec in total of the fight does 3-4% for me over the entire fight. Your telling me losing 1% chance to proc is going to drastically drop that percent more than gaining 10 on all special attacks for more than 1/3 of the fight... I dunno about that one. O and I myself don't go by the spreed sheet for this stuff, to me things like this have too many variables to just spread sheet. I may be a theorycrafter and a speculator, but I don't blindly look at a spread sheet. I also don't think armor pen stacking is correctly shown on the sheet as well as the new Hemo specs, but hey thats just ignorant me.

Except that the last 35% does not comprise more than 1/3 of the fight, due to fire mages, executing warriors, and of course, yourself (since, by the very nature of Dirty Deeds, your own DPS will increase and shorten the last 35%).

Inkm · 11/12/07, 11:34 AM

I belive people might've touched into it allready, but isn't there perhaps some sort of meta value of 2/2 DD ?

By this I mean the unquantifiable value of a skill that'll make the hardest part, for many anyway, easier?

Perhaps a bit out of the scope of theorycrafting and all that, but for a guild with certain progression issues (like my own), anything that'll make that first-kill easier to obtain is a good thing.

On the other hand, having a skill that'll do more dps in general should also shorten the fight, I guess that's what my pondering is all about. Is it better to be able to shorten the "harder" part then it is to shorten the fight in general (and yes I see the potential in "shorten the harder part").