I don't want to get onto the personal rail here, but Kalman, just ONCE un-dust your rogue, spec hemo and head to blasted lands to notice you will consistantly run down to 2-4 charges when conciously building CP without wasting energy on a servant. SOLO. And unless you overlap badly i hardly can believe that the common amount of melee oriented DPS in a 25-man raid (2 Prot Warrior, 3+ Rogue/DPS Warrior and 1-2 hunter + pets) will see alot wasted charges.
You can't compare solo to a 25-man. Solo you hemo once every 3.5 seconds. You use up to 6 charges if you're alone using a 2.6 mainhand and a 1.4 off-hand(with SnD), I don't count extra attacks though. That's if you apply hemo every 3.5 without doing anything else. But still not a good comparison since you don't have another rogue interfering in your hemo applications, cause if two rogues apply hemo with a difference of time not enough for the raid to consume the charges then it's partially wasted.
Anyway, the new buzz with the hemo change is amazing to say the least. I've read most of this thread prior to info about 2.3 and then even more so when the hemo changes were announced.
I had a couple questions I thought I would ask.
1. Considering the changes to weapon/expertise rating am I right in assuming you need 20 rating to overcome the natural 5% dodge/parry rating a mob has? If so, wouldn't it be wise to just get Brooch of Deftness and use the 2 points in WE to make SS 5/5 and then pick up Prep? To me one item being more effective then an equivalent 4 talent points (because 2 talent points give 1/2 the value of the item) it seems a worthy compromise.
2. Has anyone looked at trying to use the new Shadowstep at all? A build like 11/8/42 would scale beautifully with raid buffs and you could get a very nice opening garrote on every mob, not to mention 3 vanishes on bosses and if you do them after the 35% threshold you have a couple +% modifiers in your favor. I guess the only way this would really shine is if all the modifiers (20% from 2/2 DD, 10% 3/3 MoS, and the situational extra 20% from Shs) stacked multiplicatively. That's something I haven't tested and don't know. It would be a very fun build for PvP, but considering the +15% to agi and +10% to AP this build would get a crap ton more out of raid buffs then other builds.
It's kinda funny really... daggers were front load heavy burst dps, but now the sub tree seems to be offloading the huge numbers for the climax and conclusion of the fight. Regardless I plan on playing with hemo quite a bit over the coming weeks. I just thought I would toss these two nuggets out there as I haven't seen them addressed yet.
@Anked
1. No, you need 20 SKILL which is 20*3.9 -> 78 rating to overcome 5% dodge/parry. On a side note, bosses have more than 5% dodge/parry. Should make the question for [Brooch of Deftness] moot.
2. 3 Garottes?? You are loosing FAR too many other talents e.g. 5% hit. Choose either PvP or PvE. There is no specc that is best at both.
Against a +3 mob it should be 5.6% dodge/parry if i'm not wrong, not 5% so you'll need more than 78 rating. I don't think anyone has even confirmed that the dodge rate of bosses are unchanged in 2.3
2. Has anyone looked at trying to use the new Shadowstep at all? A build like 11/8/42 would scale beautifully with raid buffs and you could get a very nice opening garrote on every mob, not to mention 3 vanishes on bosses and if you do them after the 35% threshold you have a couple +% modifiers in your favor. I guess the only way this would really shine is if all the modifiers (20% from 2/2 DD, 10% 3/3 MoS, and the situational extra 20% from Shs) stacked multiplicatively. That's something I haven't tested and don't know. It would be a very fun build for PvP, but considering the +15% to agi and +10% to AP this build would get a crap ton more out of raid buffs then other builds.
Not sure how much time you have spent looking at your actual damage break down, or more importantly the breakdowns for a rogue doing of 1500-2000 DPS, but 60% or more of your damage comes from white auto attack hits, not picking up Duel-Wield Spec or Precision is going to kill your raid DPS. Even raid spec Mutilate has 20 points in Combat for this reason.
@Anked
1. No, you need 20 SKILL which is 20*3.9 -> 78 rating to overcome 5% dodge/parry. On a side note, bosses have more than 5% dodge/parry. Should make the question for [Brooch of Deftness] moot.
So after Weapon Expertise, you need more like 39 rating, which is really only 2 items, the problem is the atleast for rogues, weapon skill is pretty rare at the T6 level. The only real options are the Belt off Vashj (25), Dagger off Vashj (21), Gloves from Alar (18), and Shoulders from Hydross (10). Warriors get gloves, 2 different tanking weapons, and a set of Heroic Badge Bracers.
My guess is we will see a long more Expertise itemization Sunwell, now that they actually have a clue what it does.
@Anked
1. No, you need 20 SKILL which is 20*3.9 -> 78 rating to overcome 5% dodge/parry. On a side note, bosses have more than 5% dodge/parry. Should make the question for [Brooch of Deftness] moot.
2. 3 Garottes?? You are loosing FAR too many other talents e.g. 5% hit. Choose either PvP or PvE. There is no specc that is best at both.
Ah, ok... I was under the impression you got .25% per point thus 20 points = 5%. As for the second part, I know you're right... I just want a good mix so bad sometimes it hurts. I think I want to believe it exists so much sometimes I'll forget important details of why it doesn't =)
Originally Posted by Hanos
Not sure how much time you have spent looking at your actual damage break down, or more importantly the breakdowns for a rogue doing of 1500-2000 DPS, but 60% or more of your damage comes from white auto attack hits, not picking up Duel-Wield Spec or Precision is going to kill your raid DPS. Even raid spec Mutilate has 20 points in Combat for this reason.
Yeah, very true. I'm still bouncing around the 1k DPS range where 54-56% of my damage is white damage. Valid point. I guess I need to get my head out of the clouds and accept one or the other. Honestly I think the hemo build will be better for PvP anyway... so it's really not a bad deal anyway =)
The 78 EX points is new info to me... so with that if at some point you could cap the 78 EX it would then be viable to spec out of WE to get those points back. I don't know how realistic that is, but it's worth keeping in mind.
I´ve looked into this thread for quite some time now, and recently I tried the new sheet from Ellos.
So 3x/0/3x seems to be over 50 dps ahead to 20/41/0 (swords)
For myself, I can´t imagine that seal fate can give me 250 dps (this is far more than dw specc).
This number seems quite strange, because I´m going to have 34% raid buffed crit (fully gemed
for this specc)
So, what do you think about the 250 dps, reasonable or totally wrong?
Doh... just realized Expertise rating isn't the same as Expertise point. Converts at the same rate... I get it. I should have picked up on that in the get go... I was wondering why a single item seemed to dominate so bad. In reality the 21 ex rating is really 5.4 ex points, thus only 1.35% change they won't dodge/parry.
Not bad, but much different then when I first looked at it.
But, do mobs dodge and parry from the side/back now?
Not sure how much time you have spent looking at your actual damage break down, or more importantly the breakdowns for a rogue doing of 1500-2000 DPS, but 60% or more of your damage comes from white auto attack hits, not picking up Duel-Wield Spec or Precision is going to kill your raid DPS. Even raid spec Mutilate has 20 points in Combat for this reason.
From small testing 3x/0/3x spec can be quite nice even in PvE with right gearing and gemming. Have to check further tomorrow when patch hits the live with Hemo buff.
Edit: this spec requires Ashtongue/BT trinket to success.
I´ve looked into this thread for quite some time now, and recently I tried the new sheet from Ellos.
So 3x/0/3x seems to be over 50 dps ahead to 20/41/0 (swords)
For myself, I can´t imagine that seal fate can give me 250 dps (this is far more than dw specc).
This number seems quite strange, because I´m going to have 34% raid buffed crit (fully gemed
for this specc)
So, what do you think about the 250 dps, reasonable or totally wrong?
Sorry again for my bad English
Seal Fate is impossible to model with any good degree of accuracy because of the wild difference between a cycle iteration with SF procs and one with none. With an SF Hemo build, it's possible to build up to 5 CP with just two Hemorrhages (your previous finisher procs Ruthlessness, and then both Hemos crit), and it's possible to take five Hemorrhages. With no Combat Potency, that's a difference of 105 energy, or 10.5 additional seconds if you don't get procs. Try the build if you want, but don't expect that DPS number to be anything remotely resembling accurate.
On a random note, I'm always impressed how so many different people manage to independently come up with the exact same build using the spreadsheet and all think it's some amazing revelation no one's seen before.
Is it possible for someone who does BT / Hyjal and is going to use hemo put there spec up, and i mean point for point or a link to see there build? I would love to try it out in BT...I know ive been reading its 11-28-22 but where is the 11, etc etc..thanks much appreciated..
The 78 EX points is new info to me... so with that if at some point you could cap the 78 EX it would then be viable to spec out of WE to get those points back. I don't know how realistic that is, but it's worth keeping in mind.
With current itemization it's not worthwhile to stack WE. Point for point WE does trumph all other stats for me, with hit being the closest at 1.24 AEP while WE is 1.40 AEP. However, the WE on most of these items are still subpar in a min-max situation even at equal tier intance apart from vashj's belt and dagger. For the gloves and shoulders, they are at best used as an interim substitute for their deathmantle counterparts if your guild is currently doing t5 content, at best only superior until you get your 4pc t5 bonus.
However, the vashj belt is the only thing end-game in terms of t6 itemization, so it's unlikely that with current itemization you'll reach a point where 2/2 WE can be ignored, though there's always sunwell!
Is it possible for someone who does BT / Hyjal and is going to use hemo put there spec up, and i mean point for point or a link to see there build? I would love to try it out in BT...I know ive been reading its 11-28-22 but where is the 11, etc etc..thanks much appreciated..
EDIT: The reason why i took 2/3 imp evis over 2/2 murder is because he mentioned "BT/hyjal" where most of the bosses do not benefit from the 2% extra damage from murder.
Is it possible for someone who does BT / Hyjal and is going to use hemo put there spec up, and i mean point for point or a link to see there build? I would love to try it out in BT...I know ive been reading its 11-28-22 but where is the 11, etc etc..thanks much appreciated..
Some people can't decide if they want 2/2 WE, 5/5 SS, and 1/2 DD or 2/2 WE, 4/5 SS, and 2/2 DD. Most have ruled out Prep as a worthy talent at this time.
Also some prefer imp sprint where others like endurance, and some would rather have 2/2 DT w/ GS instead of 3/3 initiative.
EDIT: The reason why i took 2/3 imp evis over 2/2 murder is because he mentioned "BT/hyjal" where most of the bosses do not benefit from the 2% extra damage from murder.
I dont think you can ever get Eviscerate in cycles with trispec hemo, so Imp. Eviscerate is kinda meh. I would prefer Murder still even in BT/Hyjal, quite alot of the trash is murderable and for soloing its better.
I don't want to get onto the personal rail here, but Kalman, just ONCE un-dust your rogue, spec hemo and head to blasted lands to notice you will consistantly run down to 2-4 charges when conciously building CP without wasting energy on a servant. SOLO. And unless you overlap badly i hardly can believe that the common amount of melee oriented DPS in a 25-man raid (2 Prot Warrior, 3+ Rogue/DPS Warrior and 1-2 hunter + pets) will see alot wasted charges.
You *will* overlap badly, regularly. A lot of wasted charges? Nah. But 20-40%? Sure.
Quit being dumb.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Is it possible for someone who does BT / Hyjal and is going to use hemo put there spec up, and i mean point for point or a link to see there build? I would love to try it out in BT...I know ive been reading its 11-28-22 but where is the 11, etc etc..thanks much appreciated..
I find it more then mildly disturbing that a duel Warglaive rogue couldn't figure out where the 11 points go... I mean really, were you honestly thinking people were picking up Imp. Evis, Remorseless Attacks, or Improved Backstab? Or putting 1 point in Lethality instead of Relentless Strikes? Come on... you are giving BT rogues a bad name... I mean I expect the rogue who gets the Warglaives to be the most well versed on theorycraft... makes me really wonder about your other rogues.
With current itemization it's not worthwhile to stack WE. Point for point WE does trumph all other stats for me, with hit being the closest at 1.24 AEP while WE is 1.40 AEP. However, the WE on most of these items are still subpar in a min-max situation even at equal tier intance apart from vashj's belt and dagger. For the gloves and shoulders, they are at best used as an interim substitute for their deathmantle counterparts if your guild is currently doing t5 content, at best only superior until you get your 4pc t5 bonus.
However, the vashj belt is the only thing end-game in terms of t6 itemization, so it's unlikely that with current itemization you'll reach a point where 2/2 WE can be ignored, though there's always sunwell!
Ok, but if the only thing the rating/points does/do is negate dodge/parry rating wouldn't proper positioning make that kinda unnecessary? Sure it would be great for soloing, grinding, and PvP... but in a raid situation where you are at the back of the mob for 90% of your dps time, is it really worth so much?
I guess I'm just missing a key element, because it doesn't seem like it's really worth focusing on for a raiding rogue.
Ok, but if the only thing the rating/points does/do is negate dodge/parry rating wouldn't proper positioning make that kinda unnecessary? Sure it would be great for soloing, grinding, and PvP... but in a raid situation where you are at the back of the mob for 90% of your dps time, is it really worth so much?
I guess I'm just missing a key element, because it doesn't seem like it's really worth focusing on for a raiding rogue.
Ok, but if the only thing the rating/points does/do is negate dodge/parry rating wouldn't proper positioning make that kinda unnecessary? Sure it would be great for soloing, grinding, and PvP... but in a raid situation where you are at the back of the mob for 90% of your dps time, is it really worth so much?
I guess I'm just missing a key element, because it doesn't seem like it's really worth focusing on for a raiding rogue.
You really need to spend some quality time looking at WWS Parses. Pulled up your armory, you have 147 hit rating... you really need to get that up regardless of spec, 250+ is a good goal. At this point you are far better off getting +hit instead of trying for expertise.
I've posted my 11/27/23 build way to many times, but if you wanna look at my previous posts, go head.
I spec for PvE full out as much as possible. If I arena, I actually respec. With the ease of getting money and only a 2-3 day raid week with nearly no wipes (small repairs) I can easily afford the respec cost, not to mention selling arena teams hehe. This thread got a little out of hand from when I last posted, so I'll not even really say much more.
I will however be speccing Hemo tonight, and if Blizzard's amazing patch team permits I will be posting WWS of the fights, Teron Gorefiend being one of them (hopefully I don't get ghosted). If all goes well we can finally throw out all speculation and simply see what is flat out better for personal DPS. I already know I will be increasing raid damage, aswell as having great personal damage, but I have to see if I will be doing greater dps than I normally do.
You really need to spend some quality time looking at WWS Parses. Pulled up your armory, you have 147 hit rating... you really need to get that up regardless of spec, 250+ is a good goal. At this point you are far better off getting +hit instead of trying for expertise.
I don't know what armory (here's the correct one) you pulled up, I have 187 hit rating. True I need more, but drops haven't been as nice to me in that regard. I would love to see a WSC or RPV, but until then I'll do the best I can with what I have available to me.
The question was more a matter of how needed is the ex stat,? For some reason I have been under the impression a mob doesn't dodge from behind. I'll classify that under me not paying attention. =) I'm well aware the benefits of hit rating and how corner stone it is to a combat build, as well as how important it is to any build, that really wasn't the question here.
If you have any suggestion on hit gear I've missed that won't gimp my other stats I'm all ears! There is no way I can know everything, but I'll be damned if I can't take constructive criticism and good advice to heart =)
I took at look at your armory and tbh, your gems are nothing short of atrocious... You're better off gemming +8 hit rating gems into your gear instead of crap like +4resi +6stam into your t5 shoulders. The +3 crit rating bonus is not worth the set bonus (unless you need a blue gem for meta activation, but even then 4agi/6stam is far superior vs a useless pve stat like resilience), you're much much better off stacking +8 hit gems. Getting +4 dodge rating bonus on skulker's greaves is even worse. As for the +8 agi gems in those pants, if you want a red gem, 4agi/4hit is slightly superior to 8agi even after kings if you are combat swords, though with hemo it is about on par. However, with your current hit rating, i think it would be better if you just put 3 +8 hit gems into them, otherwise you're not making full use of the combat potency, amongst others, in your combat sword spec.
Edit: Don't use +AP gems (your bracers), they don't scale with kings, even +8agi is better. Only time i've seen +AP gems trumph +agi gems is with the new hemo mace spec going deep enough to pick up deadliness but without sinister calling.
I think the debate has gotten abit out of hand. Alot of the argument i'm seeing is "2/2 DD is better in this scenario" while someone else says "5/5 SS would be better in this scenario". I believe the general direction we're looking at is what to spec to optimise dps on new bosses, instead of farm content. There is perfectly nothing wrong with respeccing for new fights so most of the arguments i've read are rather moot. To me i just want a spec that saves me the gold from respeccing every raid since we have BC content on farm, and i would stick with 0/2 DD or just stay pvp spec. Discussing how in some situations DD is superior or in some others with multiple mobs BF is better is not a good gauge of what to spec. Even with the cookie cutter 2.3 sword spec i still respecced for raid optimisation, such as 2/2 nerves of steel for archimonde instead of vitality. By all means, if you are having problems with perhaps RoS, wiping at p3 1% and stuff then you should spec 2/2 DD. If after RoS you find yourself having problems with shahraz, by all means respec 5/5 SS and try and do as much dps as you can before you die (assuming FA is your problem). If you're having problems with Princec Malchy p2 then spec 5/5 SS, whereas if you're having problems in p3 then sure, go 2/2 DD. Arguing that just because a t4 rogue is doing different content from a t6 rogue hence the efficacy of 2/2 DD is giving no respect to the nature of individual bosses for guilds still climbing the progression ladder.
First of all that's not what I was saying at all.
Second of all, the title of this thread is "point of inflection". With the 2.3 changes buffing the subtlety tree to the point that you no longer need slow weapons or insane amounts of AP I could argue that my t4 scenario is far more germane than a progression discussion here. The whole reason that this thread has lit up in the past few weeks is that we're finding that the "point of inflection" will be much lower than previously assessed.
If we want to rename this thread "the best subtlety spec for progression raiding" then go ahead, but until that happens I don't see how any of my comments were derailing the conversation at hand at all.
11/13/07, 9:20 AM
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