I don't know what armory (here's the correct one) you pulled up, I have 187 hit rating. True I need more, but drops haven't been as nice to me in that regard. I would love to see a WSC or RPV, but until then I'll do the best I can with what I have available to me.
The question was more a matter of how needed is the ex stat,? For some reason I have been under the impression a mob doesn't dodge from behind. I'll classify that under me not paying attention. =) I'm well aware the benefits of hit rating and how corner stone it is to a combat build, as well as how important it is to any build, that really wasn't the question here.
If you have any suggestion on hit gear I've missed that won't gimp my other stats I'm all ears! There is no way I can know everything, but I'll be damned if I can't take constructive criticism and good advice to heart =)
You are socketing your items for the dodge bonuses. Replace all your gems (except the purple gem in the helm) with [Rigid Dawnstone].
I don't know what armory (here's the correct one) you pulled up, I have 187 hit rating. True I need more, but drops haven't been as nice to me in that regard. I would love to see a WSC or RPV, but until then I'll do the best I can with what I have available to me.
The question was more a matter of how needed is the ex stat,? For some reason I have been under the impression a mob doesn't dodge from behind. I'll classify that under me not paying attention. =) I'm well aware the benefits of hit rating and how corner stone it is to a combat build, as well as how important it is to any build, that really wasn't the question here.
If you have any suggestion on hit gear I've missed that won't gimp my other stats I'm all ears! There is no way I can know everything, but I'll be damned if I can't take constructive criticism and good advice to heart =)
Bosses do most definitely dodge from behind, and you do not want a RPV, please don't get that pos. 187hit is shameful especially if your here talking about expertise rating. 250+ Hit... that can easily be obtained from heroics and Kara. Regem your pants, you do not need that socket bonus. Get the heroic neck from badges, it's not difficult. Get a decent cloak, Vengence wrap isn't bad if your that desperate, but there are plenty of blue cloaks with hit on them. Get a new chest and helm, obviously your chest and boots are lacking for a rogue. You can definitely find better blues for those slots awell. Your too lazy to find em, so am I =P
I took at look at your armory and tbh, your gems are nothing short of atrocious... You're better off gemming +8 hit rating gems into your gear instead of crap like +4resi +6stam into your t5 shoulders. The +3 crit rating bonus is not worth the set bonus (unless you need a blue gem for meta activation, but even then 4agi/6stam is far superior vs a useless pve stat like resilience), you're much much better off stacking +8 hit gems. Getting +4 dodge rating bonus on skulker's greaves is even worse. As for the +8 agi gems in those pants, if you want a red gem, 4agi/4hit is slightly superior to 8agi even after kings if you are combat swords, though with hemo it is about on par. However, with your current hit rating, i think it would be better if you just put 3 +8 hit gems into them, otherwise you're not making full use of the combat potency, amongst others, in your combat sword spec.
Edit: Don't use +AP gems (your bracers), they don't scale with kings, even +8agi is better. Only time i've seen +AP gems trumph +agi gems is with the new hemo mace spec going deep enough to pick up deadliness but without sinister calling.
Good points, at the time I gemmed the shoulders I needed something as a filler. Sadly that was all that was available. The downside to being on a lower pop server is not having as much to work with AH wise. Most are left to farming what they need and then spend a good chunk of time trying to find someone to make it.
With 2.3 I'm planing to get [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] and [Waistguard of the Great Beast]. The AP gem in the bracers was free, or just about considering it came from HH mark turn-ins. I cringe at the thought of re gemming it when I've been trying to replace it for so long. I'll take a look at the gems I have there and re-evaluate where I can, but it seems besides re-gemming you agree with me that there isn't much more I can do then hope for good drops.
I appreciate the bunny trail, and the advice, but getting back to the WE thing. Considering mobs can dodge from behind 2/2 WE becomes even more valuable then it was before because it's taking that dodge/parry rating down by a flat 2.5%. Am I correct in this statement?
If so, wouldn't it be a better idea to push for maces and then free up the 2 other points for 2/2 DD and Prep?
Bosses do most definitely dodge from behind, and you do not want a RPV, please don't get that pos. 187hit is shameful especially if your here talking about expertise rating. 250+ Hit... that can easily be obtained from heroics and Kara. Regem your pants, you do not need that socket bonus. Get the heroic neck from badges, it's not difficult. Get a decent cloak, Vengence wrap isn't bad if your that desperate, but there are plenty of blue cloaks with hit on them. Get a new chest and helm, obviously your chest and boots are lacking for a rogue. You can definitely find better blues for those slots awell. Your too lazy to find em, so am I =P
LOL, true dat! I'll regem my gear =) You have all raised a good point in that I have slacked in that area. It's an easy trap for me to fall into to gem it once then forget about it. To bad it's not like a Ronco cooker... gem it and forget it. (sorry for the bad joke)
I'm curious now there Killars... what helm would you recommend? True my chest is the most embarrassing thing I have, I've just had lousy drop rates on it's replacement. After season 3 starts for arena I plan on upgrading to [Vengeful Gladiator's Leather Tunic]. Sadly the bracers are better then a lot of purple items I've seen, including heroic epics.
LOL, true dat! I'll regem my gear =) You have all raised a good point in that I have slacked in that area. It's an easy trap for me to fall into to gem it once then forget about it. To bad it's not like a Ronco cooker... gem it and forget it. (sorry for the bad joke)
I'm curious now there Killars... what helm would you recommend? True my chest is the most embarrassing thing I have, I've just had lousy drop rates on it's replacement. Sadly the bracers are better then a lot of purple items I've seen, including heroic epics.
The engineering helm is pretty good to keep until you are looking for your t5 4 pc.
Get the vindicator's bracers from honor and with a good gem in them they will last you for quite awhile.
Look up cloak of the inciter and natasha's choker, they should be good upgrades.
I appreciate the bunny trail, and the advice, but getting back to the WE thing. Considering mobs can dodge from behind 2/2 WE becomes even more valuable then it was before because it's taking that dodge/parry rating down by a flat 2.5%. Am I correct in this statement?
Bosses can dodge from behind as mentioned, but i think i need to clarify that they will not parry from behind. What this means is for a tank, they benefit twice as much (more than that in fact because of the haste mechanic from proccing parries but I'm not gonna sidetrack, this post is way off-topic as it is already) from WE, whereas we only benefit from the dodge reduction. It must be noted though that sometimes bosses look like they parry from behind, but it is only because of specific abilities of the boss that causes him to turn and cast, ie Illidan casting parasites and proccing parries, killing our MT in less than 1 second.
For more information on rogue mechanics refer to Roguecraft 101
Bosses can dodge from behind as mentioned, but i think i need to clarify that they will not parry from behind. What this means is for a tank, they benefit twice as much (more than that in fact because of the haste mechanic from proccing parries but I'm not gonna sidetrack, this post is way off-topic as it is already) from WE, whereas we only benefit from the dodge reduction. It must be noted though that sometimes bosses look like they parry from behind, but it is only because of specific abilities of the boss that causes him to turn and cast, ie Illidan casting parasites and proccing parries, killing our MT in less than 1 second.
For more information on rogue mechanics refer to Roguecraft 101
NP there, the reason I was asking is because of the massive amount of arguing on which talents to take out of: WE, SS, DD, and is possible Prep.
I still haven't decided for myself if lowering a bosses dodge chance by 2.5% is worth a trade off in doing an extra 1% total damage, or 10% more damage post 35%, or having another vanish available. It's a tough choice for anyone, but considering some of the clarification I've received 2/2 WE looks like a must no matter what you chose besides it. Which I might add, is on par for the topic.
True what the guy said about the eng helm, it's good, but you can still use T4 Chest/Gloves/Shoulders for upgrades, so you might as well get the T4 helm and get the 2/4 piece bonuses as they are pretty good. Other than that, just get the chest from Nightbane or Magtheridon... PLEASE!
You *will* overlap badly, regularly. A lot of wasted charges? Nah. But 20-40%? Sure.
Even suggesting 40% waste is just ridiculous and 1.86 is certainly not the fastest you will ever see. You left out 2/5 T6, dragonspine, WF, drums, haste pots, static haste and heroisms, even sword rogues can beat that on average. Add an enh shammy, a dps warr, a couple tanks, BM hunters and their pets and you're looking at close to 20 attacks per second. If all 3 rogues hemo almost at the same time with only 1 sec between the first and the last and lets say only 15 attacks in that second, you will still have less than 25% charges wasted on average. In the real world waste will be much much lower than that for sustained fights.
True what the guy said about the eng helm, it's good, but you can still use T4 Chest/Gloves/Shoulders for upgrades, so you might as well get the T4 helm and get the 2/4 piece bonuses as they are pretty good. Other than that, just get the chest from Nightbane or Magtheridon... PLEASE!
I should be sitting on my new hit rating of 272. Not to mention boosting a crap ton of other stats. Anyway, now that we got that out of the way we can continue with the topic at hand.
I should be sitting on my new hit rating of 272. Not to mention boosting a crap ton of other stats. Anyway, now that we got that out of the way we can continue with the topic at hand.
Well sadly for me, the topic is postponed till I raid tonight (if servers allow it) considering all that is left is Live testing... /bored
I should be sitting on my new hit rating of 272. Not to mention boosting a crap ton of other stats. Anyway, now that we got that out of the way we can continue with the topic at hand.
Neck: Check
Chest: The Assassination Chest with 3 +8 Hit Gems would work well, so would the Quest one from SMV
Bracers: Check
Back: Cloak of the Inciter from Shadow Lab or Drape of the Dark Reavers from Kara
Belt: That is a Feral Druid belt, you can get the Scryer quest one or wait for a Crafted one from SSC/TK
Boots: Check
Even suggesting 40% waste is just ridiculous and 1.86 is certainly not the fastest you will ever see. You left out 2/5 T6, dragonspine, WF, drums, haste pots, static haste and heroisms, even sword rogues can beat that on average. Add an enh shammy, a dps warr, a couple tanks, BM hunters and their pets and you're looking at close to 20 attacks per second. If all 3 rogues hemo almost at the same time with only 1 sec between the first and the last and lets say only 15 attacks in that second, you will still have less than 25% charges wasted on average. In the real world waste will be much much lower than that for sustained fights.
I don't know what the "speculation" is on this topic of wasted charges, but I know I attack myself 2-3x a second with raid buffs, and I'm 1 of 3 rogues, 1 melee shaman, 1 feral druid, 2 hunters, 1 ms/1fury warrior, and 2 tanks. I can't believe we're speculating "wasted" charges, I'm far more concerned with actually keeping the charges up, that is a real worry compared to wasting charges. Even at worst you waste charges, what is the soulution? Your going to drop a Hemo rogue and then have an extreme lack of charges?
I should be sitting on my new hit rating of 272. Not to mention boosting a crap ton of other stats. Anyway, now that we got that out of the way we can continue with the topic at hand.
Same, although I may get drafted into the ZA Speed Clear group. So I may have a HWN-Mother Parse tonight, or I may have a ZA Parse (which is going to be far less valuable).
Hey, I don't know if this is the quite correct thread, but here goes:
If I'm a human and have respecced from mutilate/combat dagger and into hemo.. Would it be wisest to buy the s1 swords or the s1 fists? The s1 mh fist has higher top end damage, but swords have human racial.. Comments? tips?
I can't believe we're speculating "wasted" charges, I'm far more concerned with actually keeping the charges up, that is a real worry compared to wasting charges.
You don't want to keep the debuff up, the faster it drops off the better. Even with 3 hemo rogues uptime should be well under 50%, which is a good thing.
Hey, I don't know if this is the quite correct thread, but here goes:
If I'm a human and have respecced from mutilate/combat dagger and into hemo.. Would it be wisest to buy the s1 swords or the s1 fists? The s1 mh fist has higher top end damage, but swords have human racial.. Comments? tips?
my build/gear is at armory (thyve/balnazzar)
For what PvP or PvE? For PvE raiding wait a week until S3 hits and get the S2 MH sword then respec. For PvP/PvE solo or 5-man wait a week until S3 hits and get the S2 MH mace then respec.
Neck: Check
Chest: The Assassination Chest with 3 +8 Hit Gems would work well, so would the Quest one from SMV
Bracers: Check
Back: Cloak of the Inciter from Shadow Lab or Drape of the Dark Reavers from Kara
Belt: That is a Feral Druid belt, you can get the Scryer quest one or wait for a Crafted one from SSC/TK
Boots: Check
I like to eliminate drop rates as much as possible, and I can wait a week for the S3 chest item =) Only reason I went DPS with the back item is I will already have 270+ hit. The belt is for a feral druid, but SSC/TK belt is a little far off yet. That one is more of a filler, yet it's one of the better belts I have readily available to me.
You don't want to keep the debuff up, the faster it drops off the better. Even with 3 hemo rogues uptime should be well under 50%, which is a good thing.
If you think my goal is to keep the hemo debuff up to look pretty I feel sad for you. You should realize what I meant by what I said, come on now. People should stop giving percentages also, everyone is speculating on a luck based factor. Luck on when rogues spam their Hemo as to when another rogue spams their Hemo, luck on how that rogues cycle is going and how much they dodges. The luck on where in the Hunter rotation or procs of another class to get an extra attack, there is so many little variables and variations to the uptime of the debuff, it is completely impractical to just make a random % up without actual raid testing, please stop.
Everything is not a simple/static mathematical equasion, I hate that everyone tries to make it one. Not that anyone is even doing math here, they are just guesstimating which is pretty improper when your supposedly giving proven information based on specific calculations. Stop with making random %'s up, it's old and tired, especially on things that completely rely on your raid make up and boss fight.
For what PvP or PvE? For PvE raiding wait a week until S3 hits and get the S2 MH sword then respec. For PvP/PvE solo or 5-man wait a week until S3 hits and get the S2 MH mace then respec.
Hey!
For PVE yes. (I'll do a bit pvp both in BGs and Arenas, but that is just for fun basically). The thing is, I'm planning on getting s1 stuff for honor, since I have lots of marks and lots of honor, you suggest doing arenas till I can afford the s2 mh sword? ( I do mostly kara, gruul, (zu) and heroics...)
1.86 was based on 0% miss, 0% dodge, so I'm fairly comfortable saying that that is, in fact, as fast as you can reasonably expect to see. Want to prove me wrong? Feel free, but until you do, I'm the only one providing numbers.
Again: *one* rogue will periodically wind up doing hemos separated by only 1 second due to the interactions of the energy buffer and CP cycles. Maybe, *maybe* you'll see that debuff dropping off in one second, but there's no reason to expect you will. And when you have more than one hemo rogue, you *will* see refreshes. Based on models that are actually hemo-favorable (more hits/second than you'd expect to see, uniform distribution of hits), I'd *still* expect wasted charges.
Assume 8 hemo-drainers in the raid. Assume each one is generating 1.5 drains per second. So, 12 charges drained per second. Seems like a no-brainer that you'd never lose charges, right?
0.5 seconds between a pair of hemos is enough to lose 40% of charges, and rogue cycles tend to sync up because of cycle/energy (in the absence of randomness from talents like CP). So I think my 20-40% estimate is quite reasonable.
Killars: How exactly do you think you attack 2-3 times per second? You have zero passive haste. For you (and again, we're going to assume the most favorable case and give you 0 dodge, 0 miss, not to mention we're going to allow you to devote 100% of your energy to SS rather than taking any aside for SnD), the model is:
(1/1.4 + 1/2.6)*1.35 + ((10 + 3*(1/1.4*1.35))/40) = 1.8 attacks/second for you. Mongoose haste isn't going to make up the 0.2 a/sec difference.
I hear a lot of people saying "I know I do this, I don't care what the math says!" Sounds a lot like back when people were saying Eviscerate was better than Slice and Dice to me.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
For PVE yes. (I'll do a bit pvp both in BGs and Arenas, but that is just for fun basically). The thing is, I'm planning on getting s1 stuff for honor, since I have lots of marks and lots of honor, you suggest doing arenas till I can afford the s2 mh sword? ( I do mostly kara, gruul, (zu) and heroics...)
Ah, I was assuming you already had arena points as you were asking about S1 weapons when S3 doesn't start for another week. No worries =)
If you can get into a 5v5 group and play 4 of 10 games a week it's well worth it for the gearing options. Considering accumulating that many arena points is a ways off; what I said before still applies, just change S2 with S1 =)
I find it more then mildly disturbing that a duel Warglaive rogue couldn't figure out where the 11 points go... I mean really, were you honestly thinking people were picking up Imp. Evis, Remorseless Attacks, or Improved Backstab? Or putting 1 point in Lethality instead of Relentless Strikes? Come on... you are giving BT rogues a bad name... I mean I expect the rogue who gets the Warglaives to be the most well versed on theorycraft... makes me really wonder about your other rogues.
I personally picked up Ghostly Stike for RoS, Farming and PvP (between respecs).
Edit - I just noticed you have Improved Eviserate currently... so maybe you were...
Well i never played hemo so i was a bit confused. Example u dont take imp evis but in hyjal and BT murder talent doesnt help alot of bosses but i guess with rupture / snd spam should be ok. I had imp evis in combat build before cause hyjal trash.
I also dont see how Elusivness helps in Hyjal and BT especially with Imp feint but i guess your also limited on what you can get around that point. I do like the pointer on Ghosty Strike for RoS awesome idea.
Thanks for all the tips guys.
Ah, I was assuming you already had arena points as you were asking about S1 weapons when S3 doesn't start for another week. No worries =)
If you can get into a 5v5 group and play 4 of 10 games a week it's well worth it for the gearing options. Considering accumulating that many arena points is a ways off; what I said before still applies, just change S2 with S1 =)
Hey! And thanks for taking your time
I guess I'll just get s1 for honor points AND do some arena (nothing else to spend arena on anyways) to get the s2 or s3 stuff Thanks for the tips!
Well i never played hemo so i was a bit confused. Example u dont take imp evis but in hyjal and BT murder talent doesnt help alot of bosses but i guess with rupture / snd spam should be ok. I had imp evis in combat build before cause hyjal trash.
I also dont see how Elusivness helps in Hyjal and BT especially with Imp feint but i guess your also limited on what you can get around that point. I do like the pointer on Ghosty Strike for RoS awesome idea.
Thanks for all the tips guys.
The only time I would consider using Eviserate is during AR, which is once per fight, and generally I just use it to completely refresh my cycle and get everything back where it needs to be. As for trash, I found that Envenom with a couple points in Vile Poisons is much more effective on trash that is about to die (not like your Deadly is going to keep ticking once it dies).
I picked up Elusiveness because there are a couple fights where I could put out more DPS, and 3.5 min Vanish is awesome (Gurtogg, Illidan, Teron), I didn't pick up Elusiveness for the Improved Feign, I picked it up for the -2% chance to get crit by melee and ranged attacks... it isn't much, but it is better then Dirty Tricks.
11/13/07, 1:12 PM
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