◊ Hanos

My GUESS, is that Rod is better due to the fact that additional energy is always nice, and there is a rumor going around that Syphon eats Imp Shadow Bolt Charges which would be a very bad thing.

 

• Vulajin

I don't understand why you have to guess when there is a spreadsheet available to make such considerations.

 

ekval

Because I dont totally trust spreadsheet when it considers Rod vs Syphon. But yes, its probally Rod even after 125% weapon damage change to hemo.

 

Sarlunas

That's hardly what I would call a best case scenario. In any case we are just speculating until someone writes a simulation but my own "napkinmath" looks something like this:

One hemo rogue will never waste his own charges since there's no reason to spam hemo every gcd under any circumstances, no potency, no AR. He will thus put up his debuffs somewhat randomly, on average 3.5 sec apart.

With 15 attacks per sec (on average 0.66... sec lifetime of debuff) the charges wasted by a second hemo rogue pushing hemo randomly would be on average 0.66... / 3.5 =~ 0.19.

The charges wasted by a third hemo rogue would thus be (0.66... + 0.66... * .81) / 3.5 =~ 0.345.

In total we get (0.655 + 0.81 + 1) / 3 =~ 0.82 which means about 18% waste. This is a bit higher than I would have thought but otoh a little cooperation between the rogues could go a long way. In reality there is ofc plenty of randomness in attack speeds etc but I'm not convinced that their influence would be more negative than positive.

 

Dontmindme

Agree.

Very arguable. Some are pointing to the spreadsheet and saying a Seal Fate/Hemo build rates best. Some are arguing over various points here and there about how far down the combat tree to go vs. how much further up the Subtlety tree to go. At this point, raid viability of various builds is still in question. That said, 11/28/22 is certainly among the more discussed options. We'll know a lot more when people start putting these builds into action.

Not necessarily, if the Assassination build actually shows itself to be workable. Some also may argue those are trimmable points to gain more utility higher in the Subtlety tree.

Completely disagree. Some people are looking at the 125% weapon damage modifier for Hemo, the 5 less energy cost, and the additive bonus 98 damage to SS and are making this claim. They are neglecting the fact that the Surprise Attacks and Aggression give SS weapon damage scaling (116%); that with Combat Potency, you generate more energy making the equivalent energy cost of SS even less than Hemo in some circumstances; and that Hemo also relies on the additive 360 debuff bonus which would have the same scaling issues as SS.

Truth be told, and tossing various gear levels into the spreadsheet with both builds confirms that both builds scale pretty similarly with gear. Hemo builds will work at the Kara gear level as well as top-end gear levels, but doesn't pull away at high-end gear levels. Both seem to be viable build types.

Yes, at least as tested on the PTR.

 

Dontmindme

Actually, I think people will end up being quite surprised. Especially in fights with forced movements, all the rogues will be re-entering combat range at about the same time and all of them are likely to want to restart their combat cycles at almost the same time. If anything, I would expect more overlap rather than less in typical raid situations.

Then, you beg the question of whether its worth it to delay one rogues combat cycle just to get the extra debuffs or whether that delay will actually cost you more dps than you'd be gaining by reducing the overlap.

 

Anked

You can always do your math the long way based off of your individual info.

Check out wowwiki for more info on the formulas.

 

songster

Combat cycles etc. are pretty much irrelevant here. What actually matters is that the energy tick is invariant, server-side, and synchronised between all rogues.

Unless your rogues make a conscious effort to randomise the time at which they hit their Hemos, then the natural instinct will be to hit it as soon as the energy tick arrives. That leads to a synchronisation of the Hemo strikes. Your two rogues won't be hitting their Hemos 1.5 seconds apart, or even 1 second apart, but within 0.1-0.2 seconds of each other, depending on their individual latencies and reaction times.

It doesn't matter how many physical DPSers you have. If your rogues end up synchronising their specials - and they will - then the majority of charges from the second and subsequent Hemo rogue will be wasted.

 

◊ Shaker

Just did the cycles by hand, and assuming 3/3 Ruth, 1/1 Relentless, 3/3 Imp SnD, and no other outside CP/Energy generators, I get:

Without 2pc T4:
(Cycle, Time to gain energy, SnD time, SnD downtime in seconds)
1s/5r - 19s, 13s, 5.8s
2s/5r - 22s, 17s, 5s
3s/5r - 25s, 22s, 3s
4s/5r - 28s, 26s, 2s
5s/5r - 31s, 30s, 1s

With 2pc T4:
(Cycle, Time to gain energy, SnD time, SnD downtime in seconds)
1s/5r - 19s, 17s, 2s
2s/5r - 22s, 12s, 0s
3s/5r - 25s, 26s, -1s
4s/5r - 28s, 30s, -2s
5s/5r - 31s, 35s, -4s

So realistically, it's impossible to maintain a Xs/5r rotation without 2pc T4 (well, you could probably do so for 4s or 5s with 4pc T5, which brings about the question - without 2pc T4 or 4pc T5, what becomes the optimal rotation for 11/28/22 (ish)? Do we cut off some of the rupture? Going down to a 4pt rupture shows a stable cycle at 3s/4r, Going down to a 3pt Rupture gives us a stable cycle at 1s/3r, but as for what if that's better damage or not, I'm not able to napkin math that out right here.

I'm semi-new to plotting out cycles, so any glaring errors, please let me know.

 

• Vulajin

Considering how tight 5s/5r is (i.e. the only procs that affect it are Ruthlessness, worst case your cycle takes 35s and you ahve ~4.5s of Slice downtime), it's still a doable cycle (especially because of the high Rupture damage). Also, in a lot of cases T4 2pc is dropped for T5 4pc; in this case, the cycle would most likely be maintainable with even better Slice uptime.

 

ekval

Just wondering also which of those cycles give highest uptime for Ashtongue trinket? 5s/5r? I seem to lost alot of trinkets uptime when changing from combat spec to trihemo spec.

And yes, 5s/5r is tight cycle, blowing bladeflurry (25e) probably makes your cycle to fall (from my own experience).

 

◊ Shaker

5s/5r is ~31 seconds for the cycle, so you're looking at ~66% uptime for the Ashtongue trinket.

One thing to note is that since you're only 11 deep in assassination, you're also losing some damage on hemo crits (albeit not a large amount) so crit rating slips further down the chain. Add in the fact that you've got Serrated Blades and ArmorPen gets better the more you have, and I'll guess that WSC is a good 2nd trinket for this build. That -is- conjecture of course, but the reasoning is laid out there.

 

PSGarak

Regarding the waste of hemo charges: You're going to want to model it as a stochastic process, not as an average, because the idea of wasted charges is inherently done in the margins when things fail to line up, which averages tend not to capture. When I get some spare time this weekend, if this debate is still alive (I suspect it will be) I'll see if I can model incoming strikes and incoming hemos as a Poison distribution, which should account for misses, energy cycles, lag spikes, and lack of synchronicity. I also think that such an estimation will be a lower bound, because an intelligent player will actually hold his hemo back by half a second if he sees the debuff up at 10 charges rather than mashing his button like a retard (equivalent reading: the more button-mashy-retarded the player is, the closer the lower bound will be).

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

• Aldriana

I don't see that such a statistical model will necessarily be that useful; a statistical model really only works when the events are randomly distributed, and these are very much not. Even neglecting Songster's point above, the fact of the matter is that, as energy regens at a constant rate for all rogues, the Hemo applications will tend to be periodic for each rogue; that is, each rogue will apply them with a regular pattern to the spacings (usually 4 seconds apart with the occasional 2 second spacing thrown in instead). Hence, if two Hemo rogues are both active, over reasonably long intervals in time the spacing between their Hemo's will remain roughly constant. That is, if a rogue applies a hemo 1 second after the other rogue, for the next 15-30 seconds or so there is a high probability that they will continue launching Hemos about 1 second apart.

What it fundamentally comes down to is that two rogues mashing blindly without any regard to the current number of Hemo stacks might be reasonably approximated by statistical methods (unless Songster's theory is correct, in which case they will perform well below statistical predictions; *however*, 2 Hemo rogues making an active effort to stagger applications should be able to minimize overlap fairly effectively. Hence, the answer to "how useful is it to have 2 Hemo rogues is going to be most heavily influenced by the question "How good are the two rogues in question, and how willing are they to synchronize their attacks to maximize Hemo uptime?"

 

Trazhenko

I'm raiding with 11/27/23 right now (or was, till the server crashed, yay for patch). So far it appears that I'm doing a bit less personal damage, but I'm still adjusting to it, and I think I'm going to swap out the ashtongue trinket, because I am definitely throwing fewer finishers now.

With standard combat swords I could maintain 3s/5r easily, maybe even 2s/5r. Now with hemo I'm looking at 4 or 5 pt SnD if I want to keep it up. If the instance server comes back up, I'm gonna try switching to WSC and see how it goes.

One thing the spreadsheet won't show you is the powerful edge effects for a combat sword rogue getting 2 ARs into a fight. I was closing the gap on our other rogue (stayed combat) toward the end of Naj'entus, but AR came back up and he held me off. I was behind the whole fight, and I pretty much always beat him on that boss, for whatever that's worth.

 

Anked

I'll take that to mean this build delivers on boss fights and is surpassed on trash... I think I can live with that =)

 

Dominus

I ran 11/28/22 tonight (in ZA), and during tank and spank portions, I had absolutely no trouble maintaining 1s/5r with 2 pc T4. I'd imagine 3s/5r is easily doable without the T4 bonus, just like it is for combat swords. The only thing I noticed is a couple of untimely dodges can leave you dropping SnD a few seconds, without having hope of readjusting and not letting it drop (IE a timely CP proc or two to smooth out the lost energy).

Hard to gauge overall, because I didn't have my 25 man melee super group, but I was doing about 885 with just an untalented battleshout for a buff. Add in mangle, windfury, UR, SoE totem, blessings (might/kings), and a possible 5% crit (may/may not get our feral, depending on makeup) and I'm probably losing little, if any, DPS.

 

Kenamoto

How man rogues specced for hemo should be in a raid? whats the maximum amount of hemo rogues allowed? Can someone also explain to me why having to many hemo rogues is a bad thing I read somewhere. Considered a dps lack if you have too many hemo rogues, can someone clarify?

 

Thx_138

Should i still be looking to put as much emphasis into +hit gems as i did with a full combat build? Or should I focus more in agility/AP?

 

Neckface

Just a comment on the hemo synchronization problem: I've been running hemo for the last few weeks and use "DebuffFilter" mod, primarily to yell at the druids and warlocks if CoR and Faerie Fire go down, but also to watch my hemo count. I try avoid reapplying hemo until I see all the charges gone. (Yes, I could just look at the boss's debuff list, but this mod puts it right in the middle of the screen for me.)

With only 10 charges the 2.3 hemo debuff is going to disappear pretty fast, but I'd like to try it out with another hemo rogue and see how easy it is to naturally interleave our hemos. It could be that keeping an eye on that counter makes it easy to optimize.

 

totalbodygym

Lemme explain a quick few things about hemo. It up's physical damage taken, and the move itself is NOT affected by the debuff. The reason you would choose hemo is to accept your dps loss for the overall increase to total raid physical dps. You wouldnt want 3-4 hemo rogues in a raid because at that point you would just be nerfing the core of your melee dps. 2 hemo sword rogues + 2 combat sword rogues would be more ideal.

but lets face it, when have you had 4 rogues in a raid? I would say the max amount of hemo rogues would be the amount at which the debuff stays up 100%. any more past that is overkill. but in order to bring any more, you would end up having too many rogues to begin with.

 

Jordanish

Forgive me if i missed it, but with 2 piece t4 is 2s/5r the optimal cycle for 11/28/22?

 

Azaziel

As a third rogue its gonna be pretty tight if hemo provides better raiddps vs full combat unless they make a effort to watch the debuff a little. But even if they dont watch it, the benefit of a third hemo rogue should be pretty equal to a combat sword.

The specs that seems to be in the discussion is
11/27/23 - Without prep the highest sword dps build
11/28/22 - Most common with prep and no DD
11/21/29 - Highest dps for maces and fists
30/0/31 - Seal fate, noone really knows how this will perform

I still find it interresting that so many not considering the 11/21/29 build, do you all have warglaives? Even with S3 swords 11/28/22 is about equal to 11/21/29 with dragonstrike or Rod of sun king.

 

Katherine

Azaziel, 11/28/22 with prep is stupid, you sacrifice DPS for another Vanish/Sprint/Evasion. This Thread was created to discuss the DPS of Combat vs Hemo and not the utility you gain for PvP with your supposed Raid Spec. If you talk about 11/28/22, you want something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft and switch around stuff as you like in the subtlety tree but not touching 3/3 Serrated Blades, Hemo and 1/2 Deadly Deeds.

 

Azaziel

I dont claim that prep is more dps, and I dont see in my post that I did claim it, but I do think alot will still take it for a very small dps loss for the added utility, and it can give more in some fights where you previously was threatcapped.

It comes down to personal choice and how good your MT is. If you have a really good tank and never is threatcapped and never do anything outside of raiding worthwhile, then of course you shouldnt take prep.