30/0/31 - Seal fate, noone really knows how this will perform.
I can't for the life see how this would be a decent raiding spec, but it indeed shows in the Rogue dps spreadsheet as the 'superior' hemorrhage build. Needless to say it has intrigued me enough to give it a go.
At the utmost worst it's a waste of gold anyhow. :p
I'll see if I can report back with a WoW Web Stats report on bosses with this build and my old 16/45/0 Fist/Sword build.
11/28/22 build, did SSC tonight, unfortunately unlike all the other WWS parses our enhancement shaman was not there. The first two fights are bad parses for me (early deaths/add-on issues), but the rest should be pretty good Wow Web Stats
I usually beat the other rogue by a little bit. I was kind of disappointed not getting to test this truly against pre-patch (no enhancement shaman). Hopefully I can get a better parse of this in either TK or Hyjal to compare.
I ran with 351 hit and 15 expertise rating, I definitely noticed that my miss rate was lower than usual (I was at cap before 2.3).
So I have a basic question. I apologize for not reading through the whole thread:
In general, assuming a medium to good raid gearing, is 11/27/23 better personal DPS than 19/42/00? I'm gonna assume it's better raid DPS.
Edit: OK I just reread the past few pages and saw that it was pointed out that the best hemo build is all speculation now. I'll come back later so I can cookie cut my PVE build.
I guess I'll change my question to "Is a hemo build going to be better personal DPS than the current standard combat build? Or just better raid DPS?" It was said that combat swords is better inherent damage. Does this mean that combat swords is still gonna top the DPS meters but will not contribute to the raid as much as hemo will?
Hopefully it's easier to answer that.
Last edited by deusexmachina : 11/14/07 at 8:12 AM.
Hi!
I've been reading this post from mid July and now with the Hemo buff I tried this spec 11/27/28 choosing 2/2 DD over 4/5 SS and last night on TK and ZA I was doing pretty good on par with a 19/42 combat rogue.
About the hemo debuff duration, pragmatically it lasted less than a second with 8 melees attacking and only 1 hemo rogue (me).
About 2/2 DD, you can really note this talent once the boss is below 35%. With an average of 2700 AP my hemo was critting for 1900+, rupture dots for 350+ (with mangle bon.)
So what can I say, grats to all the theorycrafters that with methodical and educated simulations set the foundations of this new PVE style.
I can't for the life see how this would be a decent raiding spec, but it indeed shows in the Rogue dps spreadsheet as the 'superior' hemorrhage build. Needless to say it has intrigued me enough to give it a go.
At the utmost worst it's a waste of gold anyhow. :p
I'll see if I can report back with a WoW Web Stats report on bosses with this build and my old 16/45/0 Fist/Sword build.
You need Ashtongue/BT trinket and 30-35% unbuffed crit for this spec to work at all. Serious regemming for crit -> agi -> ap benefit this spec quite alot. After thinking regemming all hit to crit I started to think if SnD is better finisher than Eviscerate when we are talking ~150 hitratings overall? Or should I try to go with 100% rupture uptime and eviscerate if possible while totally ignoring SnD?
I ran a 0/31/30 last night, choosing deadliness over malice. While I am unable to generate any WWS numbers due to the instance servers being brought down, the DPS felt quite consistent. Random SWstat/Recount checks showed my DPS to be comparable to both combat specced rogues as well. I believe the biggest challenge is finding a working cycle that fits with not having any way to regenerate energy outside of A.R./prep/A.R.
I do find it to be cruel that it does not seem viable to run any hemo-type build that includes lethality in tandem with Dirty Deeds; I had a few 2k+ DD-enriched Hemo's throughout the night.
I do find it to be cruel that it does not seem viable to run any hemo-type build that includes lethality in tandem with Dirty Deeds; I had a few 2k+ DD-enriched Hemo's throughout the night.
Right now WWS appears to be getting slammed (not as bad as last night though), once it stabilizes I will post our parse from last night (HWN-RoS) but I was seeing Hemo Crits north of 2400 but then again I am running with 350 passive Armor Penetration and a Warp-Spring.
The biggest thing I noticed last night was my burst damage on trash, I was borderline suicidal on the early trash, and had to learn to pause between Hemo's opening up on a new mob. Watching the charges seemed to work well.
Well I did Zul'aman last night, we didn't feel like doing BT like I expected but a full Zul'aman clear left me with a decent check on Hemo. I personally couldn't stand it for trash. Evis being so weak, not having AR to go with BF, I was pretty frustrated at times, im not gonna lie. I did manage to sap the crap out of people by the summoning stone that were sapping others (stupid troll rogues) so that was fun atleast.
As far as damage, I lost 12ap and near 1% chance to crit with this spec not having Vitality (not a big deal) and the change to WE. I had only MoTW and Salv as a raid buff and no battleshout. So I'm figuring in a raid im missing 1000ap atleast, and we never had CoR on the bosses/mobs the whole night. I still did well on damage compared with one of our best mages, I can't really specify how much really, but I'm pretty sure im staying hemo. My ruptures did get to around 350 without mangle, kings, and might though, so 450ish mangles is something im looking forward to. For one thing, the bebuff get eaten up really fast, id prob want 3 rogues being hemo in a 25man raid.
I "should" be doing some high DPS encounters like Teron/Bloodboil tonight so a WWS of that should be a good choice of a deciding factor. I usually do 1800ish DPS, so basically if I do more or less, I can decide based on that (if I don't get ghosted/fel raged).
ps. I also managed to get Executioner and so far I see the proc being a bit low but it still owns =P
Did anyone verify whether hemo was applying the 36 damage bonus? When my guild leader looked at his talent tree and I looked at mine (I use the Talented addon) we were both seeing +11 damage rather than the +36 from the PTR.
I, in my rush to get into a ZA group, completely forgot to turn on combat logging. I was unable to verify what the real change was. So, UI glitch or last minute talent change?
The Banhammer: Proof that giving some people access to the Internet is like giving a gun to a monkey.
Did anyone verify whether hemo was applying the 36 damage bonus? When my guild leader looked at his talent tree and I looked at mine (I use the Talented addon) we were both seeing +11 damage rather than the +36 from the PTR.
I, in my rush to get into a ZA group, completely forgot to turn on combat logging. I was unable to verify what the real change was. So, UI glitch or last minute talent change?
Right now WWS appears to be getting slammed (not as bad as last night though), once it stabilizes I will post our parse from last night (HWN-RoS) but I was seeing Hemo Crits north of 2400 but then again I am running with 350 passive Armor Penetration and a Warp-Spring.
The biggest thing I noticed last night was my burst damage on trash, I was borderline suicidal on the early trash, and had to learn to pause between Hemo's opening up on a new mob. Watching the charges seemed to work well.
Let me see the difference on a previous and high DPS Teron kill for you, and the new Teron you did last night. Hemo crits for 2400 is pretty nice though, I think my top crit for SS on a boss fight (not counting Illidan ice trap or Fel Rage) was near 26-2700, so 2400+ seems good to me.
Originally Posted by Torelorm
Did anyone verify whether hemo was applying the 36 damage bonus? When my guild leader looked at his talent tree and I looked at mine (I use the Talented addon) we were both seeing +11 damage rather than the +36 from the PTR.
I, in my rush to get into a ZA group, completely forgot to turn on combat logging. I was unable to verify what the real change was. So, UI glitch or last minute talent change?
It's 36. Did you buy the other ranks from the trainer? lol
Well my guild did BT on Tuesday, i went hemo for it. The dps is lower, on bosses AR is hugely missed imo. On Teron Gorefiend i did 1775DPS which is lower then what i use to get which was 1800-1900ish. My grp make up was Enhance shaman, 2 rogues, druid, warr. I never got ghosted, i havent in a month. This was the first week i have the 2 warglavies so im starting to think its a spec thing, my rotation felt solid but dps doesnt show it.
One thing I did like was Dirty Deeds in BT was making hemo hit for 2.2k-2.6k Crits constantly, This is why i wonder how good will it be with DD to have 2 AR's for end game. You would have to lose "Murder" which aint that big of a deal for BT/Hyjal, Relent and only 1/3 Ruth.
I topped the charts on just about all fights but not by alot like before with only 1 warglaive.
( Supremus doesnt count )
* I used spec 11-27-23* 2/2 DD i believe thats correct #'s forgive my math *
For one thing, the bebuff get eaten up really fast, id prob want 3 rogues being hemo in a 25man raid.
No, no you wouldn't. If you have three rogues all using hemo that means you'll be having a lot of time when the hemo debuff is up and charges are waiting to be used and another hemo will land. That means all those charges left when the second hemo landed are *wasted*. The more hemo rogues you have, the more often this will occur and the less and less the benefit of hemo is for the raid. You could even run into a situation where two rogues get into sync with each other and rogue A lands hemo right before rogue B meaning rogue A's hemo charges get wasted every single time.
The entire benefit of hemo is that debuff. If you waste charges because a hemo lands before all the charges are used up, hemo becomes less and less of a benefit the more it happens.
Now, on the other hand, if hemo added to the charges (if 4 charges are left and you hemo again, you'd have 14 charges of hemo on the mob), instead of reseting the charges to 10 again, you'd have a point and it'd make a lot of sense to have more than 1 hemo rogue in the raid. The number you'd want would be governed by number of melee and the speed at which hemo charges are eaten up.
Let me see the difference on a previous and high DPS Teron kill for you, and the new Teron you did last night. Hemo crits for 2400 is pretty nice though, I think my top crit for SS on a boss fight (not counting Illidan ice trap or Fel Rage) was near 26-2700, so 2400+ seems good to me.
Right now WWS is not playing nice, I have the reports parsed, but I haven't been able to pull up the individual kills yet. Once I can I will post Teron this week and Teron last week, as well as Gurtogg this week and Gurtogg last week.
I think 2 rogues would still be optimal. Yes the debuffs dont stack but as hemo tonight, the charges are eaten up in miliseconds. Before the GCD is even half over(With pets, druids, hunters, rogues, lockpets, enhancement shaman, fury warriors/tanks), I do think the benefit of two hemo rogues, outweighs the loss of a few charges. A good melee group however, would talk about it and try their best to time it though.
Three hemo rogues however, would result in too many wasted charges, as well as a loss of overall dps since hemo does not output the best personal dps. I would assume most guilds only raid with three rogues in total anyway.
I think ZA is not a optimal place to compare pre-patch dps. With most of the mobs being vulnerable to Murder and the charges not being eaten as fast as a 25 man raid situation.
I think 2 rogues would still be optimal. Yes the debuffs dont stack but as hemo tonight, the charges are eaten up in miliseconds. Before the GCD is even half over, I do think the benefit of two hemo rogues, outweighs the loss of a few charges. A good melee group however, would talk about it and try their best to time it though.
Three hemo rogues however, would result in too many wasted charges, as well as a loss of overall dps since hemo does not output the best personal dps. I would assume most guilds only raid with three rogues in total anyway.
I think ZA is not a optimal place to compare dps. With most of the mobs being vulnerable to Murder and the charges not being eaten as fast as a 25 man raid situation.
I am also thinking 2 is probably ideal, I saw the same thing and had one of the other rogues in the raid ask me if the debuff was working as he never saw it go up. All the charges were literally gone in less then .5 seconds.
I also found myself watching and waiting for the charges to disappear to use Hemo again, with Sinister Strike and Backstab I have always tended to spam. However, after getting killed several times on trash I started pacing myself better and did the same on bosses. It really isn't hard to get a feel for how long it takes to use all the charges, and instead of spamming if you wait for it, you can still keep the rotations up, I don't see any problem with 2 rogues watching the debuff and trying time it for when the other rogues charges are used up.
No, no you wouldn't. If you have three rogues all using hemo that means you'll be having a lot of time when the hemo debuff is up and charges are waiting to be used and another hemo will land. That means all those charges left when the second hemo landed are *wasted*. The more hemo rogues you have, the more often this will occur and the less and less the benefit of hemo is for the raid. You could even run into a situation where two rogues get into sync with each other and rogue A lands hemo right before rogue B meaning rogue A's hemo charges get wasted every single time.
The entire benefit of hemo is that debuff. If you waste charges because a hemo lands before all the charges are used up, hemo becomes less and less of a benefit the more it happens.
Now, on the other hand, if hemo added to the charges (if 4 charges are left and you hemo again, you'd have 14 charges of hemo on the mob), instead of reseting the charges to 10 again, you'd have a point and it'd make a lot of sense to have more than 1 hemo rogue in the raid. The number you'd want would be governed by number of melee and the speed at which hemo charges are eaten up.
I understand what your saying, as posted before hand. The reason I said what I said was I was in ZA with 2 warriors (1 prot), 1 melee shaman, 1 hunter and myself and the debuff was off sometimes well before I could hemo again. Add 2 more rogues, 2 more warriors, 1 more hunter, and a feral druid and that hemo debuff will get coming off pretty damn fast.
I don't get how people are saying hemo between rogues will be in sync. It's pretty unlikely that a rogue will hemo at the same exact instant and there are a much more high chance that melee attacks from other melee/hunters will be hitting in between application from the rogues. 3 may obviously be a bit much, and most would be wasted, but 2 is a must and that sad assumption that rogues will hemo at the same time is halarious.
I understand what your saying, as posted before hand. The reason I said what I said was I was in ZA with 2 warriors (1 prot), 1 melee shaman, 1 hunter and myself and the debuff was off sometimes well before I could hemo again. Add 2 more rogues, 2 more warriors, 1 more hunter, and a feral druid and that hemo debuff will get coming off pretty damn fast.
I don't get how people are saying hemo between rogues will be in sync. It's pretty unlikely that a rogue will hemo at the same exact instant and there are a much more high chance that melee attacks from other melee/hunters will be hitting in between application from the rogues. 3 may obviously be a bit much, and most would be wasted, but 2 is a must and that sad assumption that rogues will hemo at the same time is halarious.
Because energy ticks are the controlling factor for when rogues will use their specials, so the controlling assumption you're using (random variation between rogues hemo timings) is incorrect; instead, we'd tend to believe that the time between rogue hemos will be relatively constant as a result of most hemos being used right as energy ticks up to make them possible.
This is only more true if tick timing is server-side uniform for everyone. I have no evidence to say it is or isn't, but if it is, you have to remember that that tends to force *all* rogues to hemo at the same instant.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Well my guild did BT on Tuesday, i went hemo for it. The dps is lower, on bosses AR is hugely missed imo. On Teron Gorefiend i did 1775DPS which is lower then what i use to get which was 1800-1900ish. My grp make up was Enhance shaman, 2 rogues, druid, warr. I never got ghosted, i havent in a month. This was the first week i have the 2 warglavies so im starting to think its a spec thing, my rotation felt solid but dps doesnt show it.
One thing I did like was Dirty Deeds in BT was making hemo hit for 2.2k-2.6k Crits constantly, This is why i wonder how good will it be with DD to have 2 AR's for end game. You would have to lose "Murder" which aint that big of a deal for BT/Hyjal, Relent and only 1/3 Ruth.
I topped the charts on just about all fights but not by alot like before with only 1 warglaive.
( Supremus doesnt count )
* I used spec 11-27-23* 2/2 DD i believe thats correct #'s forgive my math *
Without hemo you only do 1800-1900 with that amazing group make up? With hemo you only do 1700-1800? Tbh with your warglaives I expect a lot more on a fight like Teron. If I can do 1850 with my gear and without the druid (we have a rogue instead) you should be doing 2k+ imo.
I'd think the MH would be a big imp over Blade of Imfamy aswell seeing how Hemo scales relaly well with MH upgrades. I don't get how you'd be that low, I'm a bit confused no offense or anything though. Can you post your armory, I'd like to see the rest of your gear.
I don't get how people are saying hemo between rogues will be in sync. It's pretty unlikely that a rogue will hemo at the same exact instant and there are a much more high chance that melee attacks from other melee/hunters will be hitting in between application from the rogues. 3 may obviously be a bit much, and most would be wasted, but 2 is a must and that sad assumption that rogues will hemo at the same time is halarious.
Except that energy regen, for ALL rogues on the entire server, happens at the SAME exact time. I know I don't sit there and randomly SS at some point when I have enough energy for it - I SS immediately after the energy regen that gives me enough energy to do it.
So if all rogues are doing that, then it's going to be fairly common that 2 hemo rogues are hitting hemo within a half a second of eachother, possibly wasting debuffs.
The solution to this is to have at least one of your rogues watching for this syncing, and pausing an extra 2 seconds to get back out of sync to keep maximum debuff uptime.
It's kinda sad the state this thread is in - serious posts with honest issues are being ignored, called "sad assumptions" or "halarious" (sic), and nobody's even reading it.
I am trying to figure out how many DPS my Hemo debuff brings to the meleer in the raid. Is there some kind of fixed value that we can use that gives us a really good idea of how many % a hemo debuff brings to the plate? From what I can see on WWS I stacked 220 Hemo on Mororgim yesterday, this is basically 2200 debuff but I am not too sure how to transalte this on DPS =/
Personally I saw a little improve DPS wise on bosses, but I lost DPS on trash so far.
Also, I got my hand on a Talon of Ashara yesterday night, what you guys think would be better on it? Executioneer or Mongoose?
As far as dps difference, by comparing my WWS I notice a average of 104 dps loss, the biggest losses comming from mobs not vulnerable to murder and/or bleeds. I am not quite sure the hemo debuff provides enough to make up for that loss, however I have no way to accurately test the exact dps(or tps) increase to the raid.
On a particular boss fight I provided 88 hemo debuffs. Lets just say for simplicity that resulted in 3168 more raid damage, that does not come close to making up for the dps loss.
11/14/07, 5:28 AM
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