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After reading this part, I gots ta thinkin'... ...so does a PvE build without Relentless Strikes = automatic fail?

Does this build hold any water in PvE => 0/37/24 ?

2 pts in Combat Potency so 20% chance for the offhand to return 6 energy...not much, but it's something. And by it's nature Hemo is saving 5 energy per strike. I dunno...I guess I'm just thinking, Vanish @ 36% then pop 2 ARs back to back when the boss is at 35% would be sweeeeet.

Just tossing out ideas for discussion...this could very well be crapola.

bbb

 

Katane

Well on tuesday melee doesnt always get battleshout cause our dps warrior misses it. With battleshout which is in later part of the week i broke 2k+ dps when shout is around. I only had 1 warglaive for a week since we got them back to back. Anywayz i still dont see how hemo would beat combat build so far, i will fool around with double AR + hemo.
The World of Warcraft Armory

 

serrasin

If you are going to do that, then why not just go 5/5 Combat Potency over Prep and Dirty Deeds. That would give you more constant dps and help make up for the loss of Ruthlessness.

 

Killars

Yes the energy tick itself is synced, but factoring in the random dodged or parried special attack, the difference in cycle, the fact that one rogue may start dps earlier or later than another rogue, and relentless strikes any "sad assumption" saying rogues will ALL hemo at the same EXACT time is ridiculous. I never said there wouldn't be wasted charges or we wouldn't apply a hemo near the same time, but the fact of the matter is in those .5 to1sec inbetween the 2 rogues attacks there will be enough melee/hunter attacks to make 2 hrmo rogues more useful than 1.

Listen I don't make technical claims or post things that aren't facts rather opinions and state them as facts. I don't expect anyone else to do it either, and if they do someone like me is going to call them out on how it isn't a fact, but rather self originated speculation/opinion. Plain and simple, if you wanna theorycraft, guess, or form an opinion by all means, but if your making things up im going to have to disagree as you are misleading many more people on those board. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I can't stand the opinions that are stated as facts on a board that people are looking for answers on.

 

Tojara

Depends on the length of the fight, two AR's around the 35% mark could be pretty powerful, and a substitute for relentless strikes etc. I still don't think its worth losing however. Do wish that I had it during RoS stage 3 last night though =/

Last night I ran with 11/28/22 and was quite pleased with the results. My damage meter mod clocked me at nearly 1900 dps on Teron which was pretty good I suppose. I'll see if I can get a parse in when its posted on my guild forums. The best I ever did with combat was nearly 2200 dps if memory serves correct, there was also an absence of blood frenzy in that parse as well.

I fully expect that the DPS reported on WWS will be bit higher then what was reported on my damage meter mod because the mod is quite outdated. It also just takes damage, dividing it by the length of the encounter for results, so not quite the same.

Haven't seen the parse yet, and my old combat one has since been expired so it will be truly hard to compare them to see if this hemo build truly held up. While I was typically under my ideal settings in both parses, last night we lost our Enhancement Shaman for around a minute, our survival hunter at some point and lastly our Warrior for awhile, skewing what could've been a very good direct comparison.

The only good comparision is the other Rogue in my group that is typically very competitive with me. On any given Teron night when I was combat spec we would both be pretty close, usually a difference of 25-50 DPS. Last night I was nearly 100 DPS ahead of him and we both were in the same group as usual, although he wasn't flasked apparently.

So regardless, i'll have to wait and see what the parse holds. Just from the above I know that the build is atleast competitive if not superior and when adding in the added damage from the debuff its well over the top anyways. I might go back to combat swords though. Even though hemo was a nice change, the build isn't as engaging as combat swords is. Spending combo points like crazy because of hastes effects on combat potency among other things is quite enjoyable.

 

Punkrocker

I'm looking at my parses now, one from two weeks ago and the one from last night in which we did all of Hyjal and BT to Akama. One upgrade between the two, [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] which I socketed with two +10 hit gems bringing my hit from 254 to 274. Here were my results:

11/27/23 (4/5 sword spec, 2/2 DD)
Pre-patch: DPS time 54mn, DPS: 1119
Postpatch: DPS time 55mn, DPS: 1036

Pre-patch: Melee was 64% of my damage with 17% glancing, 3% Miss 1% Parry and 4% dodge
Avg 409 max 433 avg crit 904 max crit 1990
SS avg 792, max 1076, crit avg 1923, max crit 2683
Deadly 2% of damage Dot avg 178 max 336 with 8% resist
Rupture 1% avg 268 max 374
Sword Spec attacks 226

Postpatch: Melee was 65% of my damage with 14% glancing 4% Miss 0% Parry and 2% dodge
Avg 379 max 830 avg crit 819 max crit 1953
Hemo avg 736, max 1203, avg crit 1533 max crit 2333
Deadly 3% of damage Dot avg 157 max 404 with 7% resist
Rupture 1% avg 322 max 474
Sword Spec attacks 185

Most notable in the proc department are the missing Potency procs, 6,840 energy that I was "missing" last night.
Relentless was about even, 3,975 pre patch to 3,950 post, meaning I did almost exactly the same number of finishers as I did before.

This obviously isn't enough data to draw solid conclusions from, but it's a start. What I find interesting is the difference between avg and max damage. Hemo is less straight up damage but due to 2/2 DD it catches up a little. Also, looking at the number of relentless strikes procs (a difference of 1) that tells me that the lower cost of Hemo is roughly equivalent to what you lose from combat potency.

I used to run a 3s/5r cycle pre patch, but last night I was having to run a 4s/5r to keep slice and dice up. My cycles were off initially and it took me some time to adjust. I think once I get a solid rotation down my dps will come up a bit, but I doubt it will equal a combat potency build, though it will be damn close. Incidentally, there were two of us running hemo in the raid last night and the debuff was gone almost as soon as it was up.

 

◊ Kalman

Wrong on all counts. Dodge/parry/cycle differences/relentless/starting DPS earlier or later will NOT fix the core issue of synced energy ticks. You're grasping at straws to avoid the problem, which is that rogues as a whole are spastic button mashers and are generally going to use Hemo as soon as they have the energy to, and that if everyone's energy ticks are synced, those moments are close enough to one another to mean significant charge waste.

Everyone saying "But the debuff was coming off in under a second!":

If rogue A hemos at t=0.0 and rogue B hemos at t=0.2, it can still look like it drops off in under a second while wasting a significant number of charges.

 

sltyntzhrt

I looked at our WWS report from last and saw a 1000 DPS increase with the same group make up and same gear except I stacked expertise to 13 cause I rather not see my ruptures dodged.

Bagofchips

Bagofchips - WWS 20/41 Combat Fists -
Kaz'rogal

Bagofchips - WWS 11/21/29 Hemo - Kaz'rogal



Edit: Notice how much Rod of the Sun King procced in a 3 minute fight, was pleasantly surprised.

 

◊ Kalman

What weapons were you using? You obviously had some gear changes. Remember that with gear changes, you can't compare directly, you need to correct for what changed.

 

Trazhenko

Kaz'rogal is also a very short fight where one resisted warstomp, or a poorly timed one (Hey I just popped AR, Haste Pot, Blade Flurry, and Berserking ... and got stomped for 5 seconds.) can sway results dramatically.

 

sltyntzhrt

I traded my Deathmantle Shoulders and Gloves for [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] and [Gloves of the Searing Grip]. I went from Belt of the Deep Shadow to [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Finally i went from both Alar's fist weapons to [Rod of the Sun King] and [Swiftsteel Bludgeon]. Was only a couple changes and mostly gear that rogues toss aside on the way to Tier 6 and 5

 

venome

Yeah looking at the WWS comparison its clear you had HUGE damage per hit upgrades, to the tune of 480 per hit to 538 per hit.. That easily accounts for 100 dps, and has little or nothing to do with expertise or respec.

 

Punkrocker

This is very true, which is why I tried to find an identical parse within the last week or two since the only change to my gear was the belt. When we finish BT tonight I'll have an even better feel for the damage difference, but I think the information from my post above is a pretty good indicator of it's performance in a 25 man raid.

I'm not going to take sides on the wasted debuff argument, but I will point out that lag will be as much of an influence on how many charges get wasted (or not) since latency between me and the server may be significantly different enough that someone else will be off by as much as a full second on their attacks versus mine. The unknown in the equation is at what point (if any) does the server sync up attacks from two different players or does it just handle them as they come in. I also run a nostromo with my main attack set to repeat so all I have to do is hold the button down to "spam" it, which assures me that I'm going to send my information to the server as soon as my computer recognizes that I have enough energy to perform the move. How this gets handled on the other end isn't something I'm knowledgable enough about to discuss, but I'm confident in saying that yes, there will be wasted charges. How many get wasted is harder to quantify unless you are intimately familiar with how WoW handles information coming in from multiple clients and whether it syncs them up by a timestamp of some sort or not.

 

Neckface

I assume those numbers include trash? If so I would expect the combat build to have an edge for a few reasons:
1) You don't get the full benefit of the hemo build's rupture advantage. (1% total rupture damage I see. Should be more like 7% or 8% on bossses.)
2) You also might not be getting the full benefit of the 860 Armor Pen if the mobs don't all have CoR, FF, and Sunder.
3) AR will have a larger impact because it will be up for a larger % of short, sporadic fights than for longer, single sustained fights.

 

Punkrocker

Yes, trash included. After we finish tonight I'll look at specific bosses in BT from our last run and compare them individually, this information is a good indicator in hemos overall performance, trash and bosses.

One thing I noticed, however, is that I'm much more focused on popping blade flurry as soon as the cooldown is up. I was a bit lazy with it before and would usually use it when adrenaline rush was ready.

 

Brisk

Unless you managed to apply .8% of a hemo that's not 88 hemo buffs at 36 damage each it's 88 applications of 10 hemo buffs at 36 damage each. Basically you missed a 0. Pretending we live in a magical world and they all got used that would be 31,680 damage. I don't know how long that particular fight was so I can't tell you if it was a good trade or not. From your # of hemo buffs it looks like about 6min but I can't really tell.

Without knowing all sorts of things that we may be able to (length of fight, poison/murder immune) and some things we could only guess at (# of hemo buffs that get overwritten) there really isn't any way to tell if hemo was better or not.

Also, keep in mind you aren't compairing your old DPS to your new DPS because the change from Skill to Expertise significantly changed what your old DPS would now be.

 

Wandatin

88 Hemo's would be 31,680 damage if all were consumed.

 

Trazhenko

I'm probably going to stay hemo the rest of the week before deciding to keep it or not. The partial raid (Naj/Sup only) we got in last night before the instance server died isn't enough info to pass judgement on it.

I'm definitely not convinced that it's an improvement in personal DPS. Maybe if you ignore cooldowns it is, but AR gives combat a significant boost in the now typical short boss fights we are doing. Maybe I played it poorly. Maybe wearing the exact same gear I would as combat is a bad idea.

WSC over ATL may be a good idea for this build (DST is the first trinket of choice, naturally), since having serrated blades strengthens the WSC proc.

I think it's going to come down to my loss vs. the raid's gain.

 

◊ Hanos

WSC is a better trinket for combat as well (as far as I can tell), but especially for Hemo with the longer cycles (going from 1s/5r or 3s/5r to 2-3s/5r or 5s/5r) really hurts the uptime and is probably a significant DPS hit.

Personally I found my DPS got better as the night progressed and I got more used to the spec, I also think being able to gear out the spec will have a significant impact (things like the ring off Illidan, T6 shoulders... 1 pair so far, Madness of the Betrayer, Ring from ZA, Bow from ZA, Executioner, etc.), as I get closer to 0 armoring bosses I really expect to see DPS go up significantly.

 

• Vulajin

I don't understand where anyone ever got the idea that Hemo would be an improvement in personal DPS. It is not. It is a decrease of roughly 1-3% (depending on the Hemo build you use) of your theoretical personal DPS in exchange for a raid DPS increase. In most cases that I've heard of, the raid DPS increase offsets the 1-3% diference.

I have no good parses yet because my guild did TK last night instead of SSC. I managed something like 930 DPS on Void Reaver, where the Hemo debuff doesn't stick, Rupture isn't usable, and my enhance shaman was swapped to the MT group for a feral druid. I also didn't have the slightest clue what kind of cycle to use at the time, and so I was playing with that a lot over the course of the fight and had tons of Slice downtime probably. So don't take this number as any sort of useful testimony.

For what it's worth, I worked it out this afternoon and 5s/5r is probably the best cycle for Hemo if you don't have T4 2pc. The Slice isn't theoretically sustainable (30.8s cycle length, 30.45s Slice duration), but it practically is, and thanks to the two 5 CP finishers, the worst-case cycle length is only 35s, which has much better Slice downtime than the worst-case for either 1s/3r or 3s/4r (the other best-theoretically-sustainable Hemo cycles).

 

◊ Hanos

Yeah, due to very strange drops and a personal distaste for T5, I am still using 2 pieces of T4, so last night I eventually settled into a nice 3s/5r rotation. I have some good parses, but for some reason it won't pull up the individual boss fights, so I am going to reparse it when I get home to see how it compares.

I really like the late burst from 2/2 DD, last night we split the guild and sent 10 people to clear ZA and the rest to BT, so we didn't have our ideal group etc, and tended to have some early deaths, so the extra damage ended up being really nice.

 

Killars

If I remember correctly BT bosses have mostly all high armor values. I'm gonna use WSC with MoTB as well as having Executioner on my offhand while being hemo (I also have gloves). I seriously do think Hemo in the long run will be a better personal damage spec than people are giving it credit for. Now I said I think, so after tonight I will gather my "thoughts" and come up with a know type of statement.

That trash parse btw, yea it's completely flawed. Blade Flurry Adren Rush on trash with imp Evis, compared to hemo on trash with almost no chance to get use out of rupture and much less use out of the other things that make the spec strong. I don't even think tanks get 5 sunders on most of the mobs, then alone FF and CoR.

 

mentok

We run 2 melee groups in our 25 man raids and I was the only one running Hemo. You couldn't even see the debuff for longer than 3 seconds. The idea of 2 rouges running hemo is a great idea.

 

sltyntzhrt

Well not a huge upgrade but a little one. Serrated Blades and the additional hemo rogue would account for most of the increased hit damage. Also increased AP from deadliness would also account for the increase. The increased damage has alot to do with respec but your right, Expertise has nothing to do with the increased Damage but then again I never said it did.

 

◊ Shaker

You mean besides Serrated Blades?

Also, going from two 97ish DPS weapons to two 100.2 dps weapons will increase damage as well.