[Rogue]The Combat vs Hemo Point of Inflection - Page 44

kegs · 11/05/07, 2:22 PM

Yeah, that's what I thought, I couldn't remember properly if it did or not though.

So, then it moves to the above spec, 11/27/23 or 11/28/22.

I guess my question is the same as Grail, would 1% extra chance to proc sword outweigh 10% more damage to a target 35% health or lower.

I would assume 2/2 DD is > 5/5 sword, but It's hard to tell because of the length of some of the fights.

Ruqas · 11/05/07, 2:32 PM

Originally Posted by songster

That's because while people have (eventually) learnt not to wear pure glass cannon gear, they're still wedded to glass cannon specs. Bit silly, since you'd think the same lesson applies to both.

Unless you're butting up against an enrage timer, more DPS is not always the answer. Yes, more DPS means quicker kills and less chance of random deaths/wipes. But if that extra DPS comes at too great a survivability cost, you may end up with a increased chance of "random" deaths/wipes because the margins just got cut too fine.

I'd like to see what other intangible benefits Shadowstep brings to rogue DPS too before I judge. There are lots of mobility fights out there. Think about Shadowstep at Lurker after add phases, or when moving between adds at Karathress, or on elemental duty at Vashj. After every single Shatter on Gruul, after every single Whirlwind on Leotheras... the list goes on.

You only need to save a very few seconds of movement time to make a significant change to your DPS. On a 10-minute fight, 6 saved seconds is 1% increase in total DPS. I reckon you'd get that pretty much every time you switch targets using SS. That's 3-4% on a Lurker fight, same for Karathress. Probably closer to 10% on a Gruul fight (and you'd never die to Shatter due to Cheat Death). Much more than 10% on Vashj elementals - it would make rogues actually usable on the sides.

Think about it - there's a reason rogues use Cat's Speed rather than Dexterity on boots, and that's only a couple of percent speed increase.

In my opinion, we survived without Cheat Death before, and we can survive without it now.

@ Rupp: You really should be running a more raid optimal spec to get best results. Since you're using swords. that would be 11/28/22.

Dominus · 11/05/07, 2:37 PM

Originally Posted by kegs

Yeah, that's what I thought, I couldn't remember properly if it did or not though.

So, then it moves to the above spec, 11/27/23 or 11/28/22.

I guess my question is the same as Grail, would 1% extra chance to proc sword outweigh 10% more damage to a target 35% health or lower.

I would assume 2/2 DD is > 5/5 sword, but It's hard to tell because of the length of some of the fights.

Note that it's only yellow damage that is affected by dirty deeds. If it were ALL damage, dirty deeds would be heads above any other talent on the same tier in any tree. That's a good question, though. Sword spec scales well, but losing 1% chance to proc to gain an additional 10% to hemo at sub 35% is something to look into. Actually, now that I think about it, shouldn't that affect rupture as well? It very well may be worth losing 1% to sword spec for that extra 10%.

Dominus · 11/05/07, 2:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ruqas

In my opinion, we survived without Cheat Death before, and we can survive without it now.

@ Rupp: You really should be running a more raid optimal spec to get best results. Since you're using swords. that would be 11/28/22.

This is exactly why I'm not sold on taking cheat death over some incredible DPS talents. What did you do before the new cheat death? Plenty of rogues out there in MH/BT are surviving fine without it, so I'm still not sure where the logic is in doing less DPS for a 1 minute CD "OH SHI" proc when you screw up.

Of course there are those fights that are less melee friendly with random effects (Azgalor RoF, Archi's doomfire, etc), but this has never stopped guilds from killing these bosses, or kept rogues from living through the fight.

Ashere · 11/05/07, 2:52 PM

Overall, I'm still mostly interested in how Weapon Expertise and DD compare.
Deadliness beats Sword Spec, so how big is the actual difference between WE and DD?

As for Prep vs Sword Spec. That's a matter of DPS or Utility. More damage, or an extra vanish & evasion.

Cos- · 11/05/07, 2:55 PM

Originally Posted by Dominus

Note that it's only yellow damage that is affected by dirty deeds. If it were ALL damage, dirty deeds would be heads above any other talent on the same tier in any tree. That's a good question, though. Sword spec scales well, but losing 1% chance to proc to gain an additional 10% to hemo at sub 35% is something to look into. Actually, now that I think about it, shouldn't that affect rupture as well? It very well may be worth losing 1% to sword spec for that extra 10%.

All my loose math on DD makes it look like ~3% damage increase over all without taking into account how much faster the last 20% of a mobs health goes away. To me ~1.5% damage increase versus something like 1.25% increase in white damage seems like a wash. I think I'd rather stick with 5/5 sword spec just so I know that Im going to get full use of my talents and not ghosted/doomed before the mob even hits 35%.

MassMan · 11/05/07, 2:59 PM

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator
I'm wondering if 14/13/34 will be a viable raid spec?

- Compared to 11/28/22 you lose DualWield, WeaponSpec, BladeFlurry and WE. The traditional PvE talents.
- But you gain DirtyTricks, 10% AP, Premed, CheatDeath and 15% Eviscerate.

I would *really* like the added survivability of CheatDeath which is the main reason I'm thinking about 14/13/34. The question is whether 10%AP and the other advantages can make up for the disadvantages?

Dominus · 11/05/07, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by Ashere

Overall, I'm still mostly interested in how Weapon Expertise and DD compare.
Deadliness beats Sword Spec, so how big is the actual difference between WE and DD?

As for Prep vs Sword Spec. That's a matter of DPS or Utility. More damage, or an extra vanish & evasion.

WE cuts out 2.5% dodge. Combine that with the fact that expertise isn't something very easy to gear around (think of the really worthwhile pieces with expertise...Vashj belt, Vashj dagger, Hydross shoulders are the only ones that come to mind), and WE basically gives you itemization points to free up. Since DD is only active during the last 35% on specials, and WE is active for an entire fight for specials/white damage (and you also get 1/2 DD, so less dodge on specials makes that 1 point better) I feel it should pull ahead.

Killars · 11/05/07, 3:17 PM

This says a few things to me.

1. Yay more raid debuffs that will fall off, sweet!

2. No more cookie cutter builds for rogues. With the changes and viablity to spec for both PvP and PvE at the same time, as well as other trends of specs, there will no longer be 1or2 cookie cutter specs for Rogues, and I view that as a great thing.

3. You can finally PvP while being hemo and make sense of it!

4. People can stop saying Rogues are just leechs and give nothing to the raid. Now we have a great raid buff so people can stop crying =P

5. Our burst damage is significantly better, something I think we have been lacking TBC.

That's all for now, imma do some testing on the PTR when I arrive home.

Cos- · 11/05/07, 3:17 PM

Originally Posted by MassMan

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator
I'm wondering if 14/13/34 will be a viable raid spec?

- Compared to 11/28/22 you lose DualWield, WeaponSpec, BladeFlurry and WE. The traditional PvE talents.
- But you gain DirtyTricks, 10% AP, Premed, CheatDeath and 15% Eviscerate.

I would *really* like the added survivability of CheatDeath which is the main reason I'm thinking about 14/13/34. The question is whether 10%AP and the other advantages can make up for the disadvantages?

Premed, cheatdeath, and improved evis are: basically useless, unnecessary, and worth having in 2-3 fights in t5+ content respectively. That build just bleeds lost dps out of every pore.

Edit: Not to mention you take prep which also doesn't contribute meaningfully to your dps in most situations.

Starsprophet · 11/05/07, 3:27 PM

I havnt gotten to read through the whole thread yet, but i was wondering if anyone has talked about specing into a 0/31/30 spec. I realise that the first 11 points in assassination is a fairly big dps loss, but im thinking that 2x AR in any boss fight could counter that. My reasoning of going 5/5 deadliness is that it is a FAR better raid scaling factor than 5/5 malice when you take buffs into account. With this spec you can get hemo, 2/2 DD, and prep. The way i would play the spec would be to use a normal, but limited, cycle duing the first 65% of the fight. Once the boss hits 35% one would pop AR 1 for 15 seconds then Prep and pop AR 2. This would give you a pretty substanital burst to help drop a boss if it is close to the enrage timer.

The spec i was thinking about would look somthing like this 31/30

Tell me what you guys think

kegs · 11/05/07, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by Dominus

Note that it's only yellow damage that is affected by dirty deeds. If it were ALL damage, dirty deeds would be heads above any other talent on the same tier in any tree. That's a good question, though. Sword spec scales well, but losing 1% chance to proc to gain an additional 10% to hemo at sub 35% is something to look into. Actually, now that I think about it, shouldn't that affect rupture as well? It very well may be worth losing 1% to sword spec for that extra 10%.

I agree and understand that aspect, but at the same time we have to look at how many Hemo's will be fired off between 35% and 0%. SS would be a different story, but with the lower energy cost, as well as (rupture?) 20% could be a huge increase in dps in the time frame.

I guess my only concern with 2/2 DD > 5/5 sword spec, is that in some of the bt/hj fights, 35% --> 0% is a matter of seconds, where as some fights it can be substantially longer.

Is there enough fights that DD would really shine through? or would 5/5 sword spec be better regardless of particular fight situations, and be consistant throughout the entire instance(s)

aleyro · 11/05/07, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by MassMan

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator
I'm wondering if 14/13/34 will be a viable raid spec?

- Compared to 11/28/22 you lose DualWield, WeaponSpec, BladeFlurry and WE. The traditional PvE talents.
- But you gain DirtyTricks, 10% AP, Premed, CheatDeath and 15% Eviscerate.

I would *really* like the added survivability of CheatDeath which is the main reason I'm thinking about 14/13/34. The question is whether 10%AP and the other advantages can make up for the disadvantages?

I'm assuming that your going after sustained raid dps, amirite?

Drop 3/3 imp. evisc- you should rarely be eviscerating in raids.
Drop premed- an extra 2cp on an opener is going to be inconsequential for long fights.
Use those 4 points to get 2/2 sprint and 2/5 DW spec. DW spec is crucial.
dirty tricks is not a PVE talent; drop it.
Imo, remove points from elusiveness and put them in setup. extra CPs are more valuable than shorter blind (pvp talent) and vanish (you already have prep if you need to vanish more frequently). Also, setup is the only talent that will really benefit from all of the dodge your getting from Lightning Reflexes.
consider removing 1/2 heightened senses and putting the 3rd point into setup.
opportunity > mod, at least from a DPS standpoint (though opportunity isnt too impressive..).

the end result looks sorta like this:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator

If your goal all along was to try to sneak some pvp utility into a gimped pve build, well done.

kegs · 11/05/07, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by Starsprophet

I havnt gotten to read through the whole thread yet, but i was wondering if anyone has talked about specing into a 0/31/30 spec. I realise that the first 11 points in assassination is a fairly big dps loss, but im thinking that 2x AR in any boss fight could counter that. My reasoning of going 5/5 deadliness is a FAR better raid scaling factor than 5/5 malice and with this spec you can get hemo, 2/2 DD, and prep. The way i would play the spec would be to use a normal, but limited, cycle duing the first 65% of the fight. One the boss hits 35% one would pop AR 1 for 15 seconds then Prep and pop AR 2. This would give you a pretty substanital burst to help drop a boss is it was close to the enrage timer.

The spec i was thinking about would look somthing like this 31/30

Tell me what you guys think

Last I had heard, relentless is a far greater energy gain than AR (even twice) in any fight. I'm not sure if this is still true, but as far as I know the first 11 points in assassination are a must (in pve) as well as the first 20 or so in combat (up to DW)

Please correct me if I'm wrong in this thinking.

Killars · 11/05/07, 3:49 PM

ar is definitely worse as far as energygain, but AR is pretty amazing when you use it in combination with other cooldowns/etc. TBH AR is more of a PvP talent nowadays with this new hemo buff I doubt many pure DPS raid builds will include it even if you can use it 3-5 times.