Ok, so I've been reading this getting ready for 2.3 . I was a sub rogue pre-bc and really enjoyed the play style. My raiding experience, during those times was moderate, but I did raid as deep sub spec, molten core, zg, ony, aq20, and even some light naxx. (back then hemo didn't top charts, but it did do well)
When bc hit, it didn't take me long after 70 to realize, if I wanted to see some progression I'd have to change my spec to be helpful to my team. I went back to combat, with a heavy heart.
Finally with the changes to 2.3 I thought I might be able to return to a spec I found really enjoyable, and still be a viable raid rogue again.
Of course, hemo is not a min/max spec for personal dps. The tricks it has, does make up for that imo. (for instance I was sapping with ease in ssc yesterday)
Well let me get to it, my wws report for ssc yesterday: Wow Web Stats
To my surprise my dps actually barely jumped at all from being a full combat mace rogue to a pve hemo spec. (actually if wws doesn't take into account the hemo damage increase to the raid, I suspect that my dps actually increased overall)
One thing which may/may-not contribute to this :
I stacked expertise upon patch day.
Feel free to check my spec, and my armory and take from that what you will. I personally love what they did for us sub rogues on patch, and if you haven't tried it, give it a shot, maybe this spec is for you. It certainly is not a 'scrub' spec as it has often been called.
--Hemo Review from a newly hemo-rogue who'd never played hemo before--
Just a post from rogues considering going hemo--
I found the cycles a lot tighter: there was rarely any randomness to the energy returns, you always knew when you'd be able to hemo, or rupture, or SnD. Keeping 2/5 up was really easy.
So... on one hand, the playstyle was very rigid and easy to maximize
on the other hand, it was very constant; I can see this being a boring-style for rogues, although I know I've been enjoying it.
The only downside from this is that it does require a bit of different play style - if you need to stop a caster, you can't spend lots of energy and hope to get a combat potency tic to free up a kick or kidney shot, so it is one more thing to keep an eye on, but also a lot easier to maximize your damage and keep energy free for the kick (since you'll never proc CP back-to-back and suddenly be at 100/100, wasting energy). I think, for some of the lesser-skilled rogues, it may actually teach proper-energy management (which I know I've never been good at).
Losing Adrenaline Rush never left me in a spot where I was left wanting for it; blade flurry had its moments, and I do still have it - I wouldn't recommend giving it up as it often does have utility in trash pulls and on some bosses (i managed to kill an eagle or two with it on the bird-boss)
For gear switches; if you always have a shaman, there's little difference. Hit becomes a little less important without CP, but it still out-values agility. If you don't have a shaman, the loss of windfury brings hit basically equivalent to agility and, if you aren't sword speced, I would assume hit would be further devalued, especially if you went in to deadliness. If you plan to go 11/2x/29(30), you may need to consider re-gemming for agility instead of hit.
In a 10 man raid, the debuff was never up long enough for me to reapply over an old hemo except immediately on pulls, and losing a few charges on a debuff is well worth getting the SnD up earlier so I wouldn't worry about that too much. With only 4 melee (2 tanks, fury war and me, no hunters or pets), the charges never lasted more than 2 or 3 seconds.
All in all, I like the hemo build... if you're considering it, it's good damage, a decent raid debuff that requires very little management (if any), and it makes for better play as it takes away a lot of randomness in the rogue play, as well as adding utility (faster, improved stealth came in handy on the scouts in Zul'aman, and will be excellent on arena teams). If you're on the fence, I would definitely recommend giving a hemo-build a try for a week at least. We'll see how it goes in a 25 man tonight with other rogues on the run.
(for the record, I'm 11/27/23 with 2/2 DD and 4/5 SwSp - My gear level is early tier5)
"Such ... is the state of life, that none are happy but by the anticipation of change; the change itself is nothing; when we have made it, the next wish is to change again."
Okay, since I'm sick of hearing how everyone 'feels' about things, and in a (and my personal) last ditch attempt to pull this thread out of the craphole and into a meaningful discussion with actual analysis, I took Bagofchip's log, which has him and another rogue both Hemo spec'd, and ripped out all the hemo hits to see how spaced apart they were.
Now, Kaz'rogal is possibly not a great fight for this, due to stuns - but what I did was strip out all the Hemo hits, and figured the time between them. There were 18 hemos in that fight (out of 101) where it was performed < .5 seconds after the previous one. I then went to calculate an average time - over all the hits, it's 1.21188 seconds - but from looking at the data (PM me if you'd like it, btw), I decided to filter out all the times where it wasn't switching between the two different rogues, and also killed off any gaps of > 4 seconds (stuns or running from exploders I suppose..). When averaging the gaps left over, the average comes down to .81064 seconds.
From this and the anecdotal assertion that the debuff is being used up within .5-1 seconds (which can be challenged seperately if someone desires, but I haven't seen anyone doing so yet), my conclusion is that there's enough variation to say that 2 rogues with hemo is not wasting a large number of the debuff charges.
Some notes on possible sources of inaccuracy:
- One rogue had the Rod of the Sun King, affecting his energy regeneration in a way that could definitely prevent any syncing from happening. He only regained 20 energy 5 times throughout the fight. Whether or not this is significant I will leave to others.
Opinions:
From looking at the data, there seems to be a fair amount of evidence that there is NOT server-side syncing of energy regeneration going on, unless one rogue had much worse framerate/reaction time than the other. < 20% of the hits were < .5 seconds.
Okay, since I'm sick of hearing how everyone 'feels' about things, and in a (and my personal) last ditch attempt to pull this thread out of the craphole and into a meaningful discussion with actual analysis, I took Bagofchip's log, which has him and another rogue both Hemo spec'd, and ripped out all the hemo hits to see how spaced apart they were.
I'd like to applaud you Shaker on this post, I too am getting more and more pissed off at the 'feelings' presented in this thread with a complete lack of substance to the posts. Especially the people who ignore this and the other 3 rogue threads containing spreadsheets which answer every question about gear/gems/cycles. >.<
It is indeed a very nice conclusion you have come to. I would like to see the same analysis done in a more controlled environment. Firstly would anyone be able to test whether energy regen syncs between rogues? Possibly someone 2-boxing (with the same latency between the two) and making attacks from full energy at different times (1 second apart?) to see when the energy ticks occur.
A controlled environment with which to test the amount hemos overlap would be 2 rogues with similar ping (same spec, same raid buffs) and comparing it to say 3 rogues using hemo in a similar situation.
From a personal view (no maths done yet). My dps was about the same as usual on trash. But I got a new record tonight on tidewalker. With about +100 dps.
I was going with 11/28/22 (5/5 sword spec). I will try 11/27/23 next time to see the lost of 1/5 sword spec vs. 2/2 Dirty Deeds. I'm the only hemo at the moment. The two others are regular 20/41. I'm the test dummy
Unless you managed to apply .8% of a hemo that's not 88 hemo buffs at 36 damage each it's 88 applications of 10 hemo buffs at 36 damage each. Basically you missed a 0. Pretending we live in a magical world and they all got used that would be 31,680 damage. I don't know how long that particular fight was so I can't tell you if it was a good trade or not. From your # of hemo buffs it looks like about 6min but I can't really tell.
Without knowing all sorts of things that we may be able to (length of fight, poison/murder immune) and some things we could only guess at (# of hemo buffs that get overwritten) there really isn't any way to tell if hemo was better or not.
Also, keep in mind you aren't compairing your old DPS to your new DPS because the change from Skill to Expertise significantly changed what your old DPS would now be.
Yeah, It seemed the change to Expertise positively effected my dps. I used hit food and I always raid with a draenei warrior. Although I haven't gotten any upgrades or done any re-gemming in the time between the combat logs.
Sorry, I left a zero out on my inital post, and assuming all the hemo debuffs were consumed it did not make up for the loss in dps. The fight was also a poison/murder immune mob, so my normal combat build saw a loss due to imp poisons in that fight and both saw a loss(hemo moreso) from being unable to rupture. That fight(voidreaver) was the only one I could accurately compare with yesterday. With Al'ar phase 1 add duty and phase 2 spawning in random positions after a 'dive bomb'. And kael with the legendary weapons and having to save energy to kick, since I don't have combat potency. Although the Kael fight seemed to work more in hemos favor with Dirty Deeds and 125% weapon damage. I will run and compare again today when I do Rage-->Kaz'rogal and as much of BT as time allows.
Nice to see your wws but i got one question Galéndil,before going hemo,where you always higher than the other two on the dps list in the same encounters?
Okay, since I'm sick of hearing how everyone 'feels' about things, and in a (and my personal) last ditch attempt to pull this thread out of the craphole and into a meaningful discussion with actual analysis, I took Bagofchip's log, which has him and another rogue both Hemo spec'd, and ripped out all the hemo hits to see how spaced apart they were.
Now, Kaz'rogal is possibly not a great fight for this, due to stuns - but what I did was strip out all the Hemo hits, and figured the time between them. There were 18 hemos in that fight (out of 101) where it was performed < .5 seconds after the previous one. I then went to calculate an average time - over all the hits, it's 1.21188 seconds - but from looking at the data (PM me if you'd like it, btw), I decided to filter out all the times where it wasn't switching between the two different rogues, and also killed off any gaps of > 4 seconds (stuns or running from exploders I suppose..). When averaging the gaps left over, the average comes down to .81064 seconds.
From this and the anecdotal assertion that the debuff is being used up within .5-1 seconds (which can be challenged seperately if someone desires, but I haven't seen anyone doing so yet), my conclusion is that there's enough variation to say that 2 rogues with hemo is not wasting a large number of the debuff charges.
Some notes on possible sources of inaccuracy:
- One rogue had the Rod of the Sun King, affecting his energy regeneration in a way that could definitely prevent any syncing from happening. He only regained 20 energy 5 times throughout the fight. Whether or not this is significant I will leave to others.
Opinions:
From looking at the data, there seems to be a fair amount of evidence that there is NOT server-side syncing of energy regeneration going on, unless one rogue had much worse framerate/reaction time than the other. < 20% of the hits were < .5 seconds.
Well the personal dps of hemo should on average only be a little lower than combat sword, so you need to lose most of the charges for it to turn worse. If you assume your raid removes the debuffs within 1 second, and the average diffrence between hemo charges getting reapplied is 0.8 seconds. Then the 2nd rogue still gives an extra 60 dps to the raid over his personal dps.(With only one rogue he would provide 100% of the debuff and with 2 rogues getting 80% it brings the extra dps added by 2nd rogue 60% which is roughly 60 dps)
And were those rogues actively keeping an eye on debuff to see when to reapply it? If you on average do a hemo every 3.5 seconds thats a very big window to adjust when to apply the debuff in.
Nice to see your wws but i got one question Galéndil,before going hemo,where you always higher than the other two on the dps list in the same encounters?
Yeah, I use to be abit higher.
So i have a feeling (still no maths done) that hemo is about the same. Here is a wws from 1.11.07 where I'm "normal" combat: Wow Web Stats 1.11.07
It should be mentioned that I've gotten a warp spring coil, since the 01.11.07 raid. And that we used drums of war (the haste ones?) for the first time. So there is some extra dps there. But that goes for everyone of the rogues. So the only change to my dps gear wise is the WSC.
And were those rogues actively keeping an eye on debuff to see when to reapply it? If you on average do a hemo every 3.5 seconds thats a very big window to adjust when to apply the debuff in.
I'm not sure how easy it would be to try and sync with another rogue. I tried hemo on Gruul last night and we run with quite afew people who do physical damage. I was the only rogue present and the majority of the time I never even saw the debuff icon due to it being consumed so fast. It was disconcerting enough that I even double checked a couple of times to make sure I wasn't still using Sinister Strike.
- One rogue had the Rod of the Sun King, affecting his energy regeneration in a way that could definitely prevent any syncing from happening. He only regained 20 energy 5 times throughout the fight. Whether or not this is significant I will leave to others.
Even without this, syncing is pretty much impossible, because each rogue has a 40% chance of getting 25 energy when they refresh their slice and dice. That should be more than sufficient to break up when special attacks land.
Even without this, syncing is pretty much impossible, because each rogue has a 40% chance of getting 25 energy when they refresh their slice and dice. That should be more than sufficient to break up when special attacks land.
It isn't, iff energy ticks are synchronized. That's really the key question on synchronization - if all rogues are operating on the same 2 second tick, then nothing is going to break up that synchronization.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
I have been reading over this thread with great anticipation of 2.3 and now it's finally here and I'm getting cold feet. First off this is my first post here and I cant think of a better time then now to ask the big question.
I want to still have viable dps in 10/25man raids as we are just about to down KT (hopefully later this week) and that will begin our tour into Hyjal and BT shortly there after. As most of you I have been enjoying ZA, the new encounters are a breath of fresh air even if the loot isn't all that great for our current progression level but I worry about my ability to deliver enough dps on smaller raids after the respec, since hitting a 10man again.
The first build I worked up after looking over everyone else's and I tried to go with what I thought would be a good mix of PvP and PvE talents since I like to spend off days messing around in the Arenas.
Here is the HYBRED build I though might work. I used the wow talent calc, hopefully that's not a problem.
Don't feel shy about answering either.
Edit: Also I thought my Armory profile might help.
Combat Hemo sword template (without combat potency, with relentless) tested yesterday , looked pretty efficient/equivalent to pure combat template on Morogrim. (and you get the debuff on top of that for all physical dps)
I have been reading over this thread with great anticipation of 2.3 and now it's finally here and I'm getting cold feet. First off this is my first post here and I cant think of a better time then now to ask the big question.
I changed mace to swords for my build, I really do feel like it gives much better damage to do it that way, and even for pvp I'm still rocking the kills. I don't have the WWS yet but last night I out DPSed the raid on several attempts of archimode. I don't think SWStats counts the hemo buff I give and counts that to the people getting the buff, so I feel REALLY good about this change for me. You'll be fine spamming hemo as the charges don't last past the GCD, haven't tried it with the 10 man but I assume it's roughly the same.
IMO just take the plunge, I spent like another 1k+ gold on enchants but I think it's well worth it.
Here is the HYBRED build I though might work. I used the wow talent calc, hopefully that's not a problem.
Don't feel shy about answering either.
Edit: Also I thought my Armory profile might help.
You are wearing swords and show an AR-Prep-Build with Maces as Hemo-Template?
Honestly I don't think this is the right direction to take if you want to have viable PvE-dps, esp. by leaving out Weapon Expertise and Relentless Strikes.
You might want to try the more "classic" apporach of a 11/27/23 Build when going Hemo. You still keep a lot of PvP-viability but get much higher PvE-dps.
The first build I worked up after looking over everyone else's and I tried to go with what I thought would be a good mix of PvP and PvE talents since I like to spend off days messing around in the Arenas.
Here is the HYBRED build I though might work. I used the wow talent calc, hopefully that's not a problem.
Pick PvE or PvP or fail at both. You have a 0/31/30 build... without WE. You really give up a lot in Assassination to get that extra 10% AP and AR. Basically that is one of the preferred Arena Specs, but it isn't the best for PvE and your damage will suffer as a result. If you want to go Hemo for raids do it to buff the raid while providing similar DPS, with some increased utility (aka 100%+ dodge on RoS, extra Vanishes, etc).
Apocc is Combat Swords and out gears me slightly, Combat we were normally pretty close (he has the sword off Mother and shoulders of HWN, and I forgot to wear 2-piece T4), I did 1224 DPS in the last parse I had as Combat.
Gurtogg:
Combat - 1448 DPS (Got Fel Rage 1 Time) - Wow Web Stats
Hemo - 1480 DPS (No Fel Rage) - Loading... (Some of the gain is due to Vanish Timer Reduction
Most of the other fights this week had mitigating factors that screw up the comparison (aka Teron we didn't have a single warrior in the raid so no Sunder, no Battle Shout), Council is now a more mobile fight etc.
What I am seeing is my WWS DPS is very close to my Combat DPS, which is also what I have noticed in game.
IMO just take the plunge, I spent like another 1k+ gold on enchants but I think it's well worth it.
What did you spend 1k on? I don't see Executioner on either of your weapons or anything like that.... So far I haven't seen much I would change from Combat to Hemo, granted I prioritized gems the following way before: Hit > Agi > AP > Crit (I only have the Purple AP Gems because we didn't have Agi/Stam at the time), going Hemo just means I don't need to regem gear to up my +hit.
It isn't, iff energy ticks are synchronized. That's really the key question on synchronization - if all rogues are operating on the same 2 second tick, then nothing is going to break up that synchronization.
There is no if about it. Energy ticks are based on a fixed server-side clock. We have known this for years. People have even written tick timer mods to help people synchronise their PvP openers to the server-side "tick" and thus get an optimal opening burst - i.e. if you use your opener immediately prior to the tick, you can get 20 energy back almost immediately. Remember all the hell that erupted on the forums when then changed energy regen to being pro-rated? That was entirely due to the fixed server-side tick. In the end, they reverted than change, but the fixed tick is still there, and has been from day 1 of WoW.
The only remaining question is whether the rogues in the raid have different latencies and/or reaction times, and thus end up desynchronising themselves from the server-side tick through these lag effects.
Thanks, I tried but only clicked the top one, didnt realize the bottom was your armory link since most people dont have it set up like that
I have S2 maces I usually respec for pvp every week with, If I went hemo I would use those becasue they are bett er then my current swords and I could get some free points because mace spec combines WE+ the proc. (unless I am wrong about the way mace spec+skill works)
Would allow for prep which is nice for pvp and pve. I think with that build you could pvp with pretty good success, though not as good as 31/30
What did you spend 1k on? I don't see Executioner on either of your weapons or anything like that.... So far I haven't seen much I would change from Combat to Hemo, granted I prioritized gems the following way before: Hit > Agi > AP > Crit (I only have the Purple AP Gems because we didn't have Agi/Stam at the time), going Hemo just means I don't need to regem gear to up my +hit.
I used to be fist, I switched to sword and that mace just this week so I put mongoose on both. From what I understand we're still not 100% on Executioner and it's procs so until I figure this out I'll keep mongoose. For the extra damage going back and regemming my items and putting on items that give me more hit has been well worth it for even just my personal damage.
11/14/07, 7:20 PM
Similar Threads
