I believe this has been confirmed again Reliquary of Souls, the first phase on which has 0 armor to start with; my recollection is that people have tested and found that Armor Penetration provides no damage benefit against it. I don't remember specifically where the testing appeared, but a bit of searching should be able to turn it up.
Well, i specced hemo like most others, and it's pretty nice so far.
My dps seems the same, but that'll need more testing.
As for the hemo buff being used up by the raid, the buff lasts between 0.2-0.5 seconds anytime i apply it.
So it seems to give the raid the full benefit that it can. (36*10+avgRaidCrit%) = 360*1.30 = ~468 dmg
Morogrim should be the best place to test the new numbers, as most other fights are rather dynamic.
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Morogrim should be the best place to test the new numbers, as most other fights are rather dynamic.
Teron Gorefiend comes to mind. Our Healers improved their healing gear vastly since the release of Black Temple, so some of us started dropping their rule of thumb for wearing 3 pieces of their Shahraz gear to ease the burden on the healers. Its kind of Patchwork 2.0 if you don't get ghosted.
Ok i dont know that much about the mechanics ect like u do. everything i know, i learned form this site. ive been following this thread along time, and was happy to see that hemo might get viable in the 2.3 patch. So i respected when the patch got live.
Anyways. i got the stats from last nights Hydross kill. I have exactly the same gear and same grpbuffs and raidbuffs. I used the same amount of pots ( 2 haste potions ) the only different buff i had, was the +20 hitrating foodbuff.
I have the 11/27/23 build. with 4/5 ss and 2/2 dd.
hmm ye. damn im sry. i overlooked that. i just assumed that the shaman used his totems the same way in both fights.
But its not all that bad thou, as i dont have AR. Anyways, hemo was better then i first expected.
His melee damage was also lower, which isnt what youd expect with hemo given serrated blades, so it might just be a case where two values behaved in an unexpected manner but gave us expected (averaged) results.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
My real question now isn't what spec I should be, but rather what trinkets I want to use. With T6 Shoulders/Gloves, Stormrage Sig Ring, and serrated blades I'd have 1036 passive (560 + 476) pen. I also have Executioner now so thad be 1876, roughly 300 armor away from the base armor on lower armor bosses and 1800 from high armor bosses.
I have the Ashtongue trinket, the MoTB, and WSC. My question is which two should I use for the higher armor bosses and even the lower armor bosses. Should I use MoTB/WSC against the higher armor bosses (if all proc id have the high armor boss at around 500 armor if all procced together).
Using the senario where they usually wouldn't proc together (WSC/MoTB/Exec) should I still use both armor pen trinkets on low armor bosses to make the chances of having atleast 1 up at a time more likely. If all did proc together or actually if only Exc w/ WSC procced together id basically be wasting most of the trinket (id go over cap by 700), but atleast the boss would be at 0 armor. Atleast the proc on WSC alone would bring the boss to 0 armor, making it prob the most powerful proc/trinket in the game at that point.
Let me know what you guys think.
I would go ahead and use both trinkets, they both have interal CD's, so the odds of them being up at the same time are slim, and Ashtongue's uptime with Hemo is lower then with Combat. Only trinkets I would even consider using over WSC and Madness are Dragonspine and Tsunami and if you have those two and take Dragonspine over another melee or Tsunami over a hunter you are asking for drama.
Originally Posted by Katherine
Teron Gorefiend comes to mind. Our Healers improved their healing gear vastly since the release of Black Temple, so some of us started dropping their rule of thumb for wearing 3 pieces of their Shahraz gear to ease the burden on the healers. Its kind of Patchwork 2.0 if you don't get ghosted.
Out of curiosity is this not your main? You are posting as if you have BT Experience, and are in a world top 5 guild, but you don't show as having any Raid Loot or heroic keys, and are definately not keyed for Hyjal/BT.
Out of curiosity is this not your main? You are posting as if you have BT Experience, and are in a world top 5 guild, but you don't show as having any Raid Loot or heroic keys, and are definately not keyed for Hyjal/BT.
I would go ahead and use both trinkets, they both have interal CD's, so the odds of them being up at the same time are slim, and Ashtongue's uptime with Hemo is lower then with Combat. Only trinkets I would even consider using over WSC and Madness are Dragonspine and Tsunami and if you have those two and take Dragonspine over another melee or Tsunami over a hunter you are asking for drama.
Out of curiosity is this not your main? You are posting as if you have BT Experience, and are in a world top 5 guild, but you don't show as having any Raid Loot or heroic keys, and are definately not keyed for Hyjal/BT.
I finally got to do BT last night (Nej-Shahraz - the WWS isn't up yet) and I used the 2 trinkets, as I thought id be best with the spec. Almost always had a proc up (Exc/WSC/MoTB) and was hitting pretty hard due to some of them stacking on trash where mob armor is pretty high. I definitely am really starting to like this spec. I saw no decrease in damage, and even though there was no WWS yet, I definitely did more damage on Souls and I think Bloodboil too because of not being threat capped. Sadly I go ghosted on Teron (first time in over a month, go figure!), but my DPS should still be accurate for the most part when looking at WWS, however I missed 35%-14% which is a huge DPS loss imo. I also had no buffs from 14%-0 while DPSing so that prob did lower my DPS in total.
I'll bb later tonight with the WWS, but as far as the trinkets go I'm definitely liking not only the procs, but the hit as well. Going from Black Featherlight boots, to the Shadow Master I lost a lot of hit. I'm currently sitting at 270 Hit with BOTH trinket on (20 and 21 = 41 from both). How much hit do I even want right now with this Hemo build anyway? Should I sacrifice some of the +5agil +5hit gems for +10hit? I do have a large amount of unbuffed crit and ap (around 31.5 and 2100) so I think increasing my hit wouldn't be a bad idea, I'd like some thoughts on that. Keeping in mind that the Illidan ring will inc my hit by 11 and the MH Legendary (if it ever decides to drop!) will increase my hit by 21. We'll the help would be appreciated, as always. Thanks.
ps. DST would be better in most cases over either MoTB and WSC. I'd prob lose WSC for low armor bosses. I've been waiting on my guilds first DST since back when we founded it (I was one of the founders). Not 1 has dropped and I still hold the most DKP on that table aswell as having the only other active rogue in the guild besides me not even being on that DKP table. I would take the trinket, sorry it's just too good to pass up. Also, in all likelyhood they will be adding more armor pen items in Sunwell, making passive armor pen own WSC viability and making DST a better choice on all grounds.
Questions about Gemming can be answered with the DPS spreadsheet. I don't know how many times it needs to be said: If you have questions about what gear / gems / cycle to use.... open the spreadsheet and do some work for yourself.
With the current change in my spec, hit, and WE I don't know how much I value hit or how much the spread sheet values it. Is there a change in how much a spread sheet will value hit on a combat build vs a hemo build? I'm sorry if I'm not a blind "/check spread sheet" type of guy. I rather discuss things and see what some other rogues have to say along with possibly looking at a spread sheet. The question really wasn't based on gems either, it was more or less how the value of hit was effected by the patch and what the "sweet spot" of hit currently is being that WE reflects dodges, and the new hit cap is in the 360's I believe.
(Hi everyone, long time reader, first time poster)
Originally Posted by Faytte
His melee damage was also lower, which isnt what youd expect with hemo given serrated blades, so it might just be a case where two values behaved in an unexpected manner but gave us expected (averaged) results.
Looking at the numbers, his total uptime as Combat Swords was 495,080/1,016 = 8m 7.3s. Total uptime as Combat Hemo was 477,527/1,013 = 7m 51.4s. That's a difference of 15.9 seconds. Taking his 64% white melee damage, you're looking at another 10,300 white damage if the fights were the same length, which puts the white damage from Hemo a slim 4k margin over Combat Swords. Combat Swords picks up the difference plus 2k because of more SS damage, resulting in the trivial 3 dps difference we see at the end.
However, he used Hemo 88 times, and 880 charges of debuff probably went a long way toward raid DPS, even if many charges were wasted (doubtful, considering data from the thread thus far). Assuming he himself used 30%, he still added 22,176 raid damage from 616 charges of the Hemo debuff, or 47 dps. Although the Windfury proc difference from the parses skews the results, probably by a factor of 30k damage, that still puts Hemo roughly equivalent.
Please tell me if I'm totally off-base on any of my info. In the end, I'd be satisfied satisfied knowing that Hemo gives me (within a reasonable margin of error) about the same dps as Combat Swords, because it lets me choose freely between Subtlety goodies and Combat goodies. Personally, I think the ability to sacrifice some damage at the beginning of a fight in exchange for a damage bonus during the last 35%, when it's often really needed, is invaluable.
I'm currently sitting at 270 Hit with BOTH trinket on (20 and 21 = 41 from both). How much hit do I even want right now with this Hemo build anyway? Should I sacrifice some of the +5agil +5hit gems for +10hit? I do have a large amount of unbuffed crit and ap (around 31.5 and 2100) so I think increasing my hit wouldn't be a bad idea, I'd like some thoughts on that. Keeping in mind that the Illidan ring will inc my hit by 11 and the MH Legendary (if it ever decides to drop!) will increase my hit by 21. We'll the help would be appreciated, as always. Thanks.
I would say that stacking hit isn't anywhere near as important as it was for Combat and especially before the Sword Spec and Windfury Nerfs. This is mainly due to the fact that when everything could proc everything else, 1 miss was potentially several misses, as opposed to miss being potentially 2 misses worth of damage. Right now if you miss a MH Auto attack you are missing a potential MH Attack, potential WF Attack, and a Potential Sword Spec attack, so you could potentially get double damage, however if you could increase you stats more elsewhere then you should, in addition you cycles are not dependent on hitting to get CP Procs, with Combat if you had a string of misses you could end up energy starved the same way Fury Warriors can end up rage starved with misses. With Hemo this isn't an issue, the procs are less of a factor so you can take what gives more total damage. Hit is better then crit due to the lower cost, although most of the analysis on Hemo I have seen suggests that Agility is as good or better, so I personally plan to run all +5 Agi/+5 Hit Gems, with 2 blue gems for the Meta. I am personally aiming for around 305-310 hit and plan to use the +hit food to put me at 330 with means I am missing/getting dodges 0.75% less then in 2.2, which I am fine with, I don't feel the same need to be hit capped right now.
ps. DST would be better in most cases over either MoTB and WSC. I'd prob lose WSC for low armor bosses. I've been waiting on my guilds first DST since back when we founded it (I was one of the founders). Not 1 has dropped and I still hold the most DKP on that table aswell as having the only other active rogue in the guild besides me not even being on that DKP table. I would take the trinket, sorry it's just too good to pass up. Also, in all likelyhood they will be adding more armor pen items in Sunwell, making passive armor pen own WSC viability and making DST a better choice on all grounds.
Obviously that is a personal decision, but when you realize how few melee trinkets there are, unless your other rogue is using some combo or WSC, Tsunami and Madness, you are depriving him of a 30 DPS upgrade so that you can pick up a 3-5 DPS upgrade (aka smaller then any real upgrade in BT by a significant margin... most are in t 15-25 range). I also expect to see more armor penetration and expertise gear in Sunwell, but WSC, DST and Madness all scale exceptionally well, and are so close in DPS that taking a third when you have two and others needs them seems greedy.... atleast to me.
I would say that stacking hit isn't anywhere near as important as it was for Combat and especially before the Sword Spec and Windfury Nerfs. This is mainly due to the fact that when everything could proc everything else, 1 miss was potentially several misses, as opposed to miss being potentially 2 misses worth of damage. Right now if you miss a MH Auto attack you are missing a potential MH Attack, potential WF Attack, and a Potential Sword Spec attack, so you could potentially get double damage, however if you could increase you stats more elsewhere then you should, in addition you cycles are not dependent on hitting to get CP Procs, with Combat if you had a string of misses you could end up energy starved the same way Fury Warriors can end up rage starved with misses. With Hemo this isn't an issue, the procs are less of a factor so you can take what gives more total damage. Hit is better then crit due to the lower cost, although most of the analysis on Hemo I have seen suggests that Agility is as good or better, so I personally plan to run all +5 Agi/+5 Hit Gems, with 2 blue gems for the Meta. I am personally aiming for around 305-310 hit and plan to use the +hit food to put me at 330 with means I am missing/getting dodges 0.75% less then in 2.2, which I am fine with, I don't feel the same need to be hit capped right now.
Yea I figured as much, and yea the Hit food is gonna be great. I think I may still put +10 hit in my legs as well as changing the 8agil in my shoulders to +5/+5 when I get the shoulders. Both im next in line for provided they actually drop =P I'll be around 310 w/ the two trinket and my full set of gear that I want, sounds good to me.
Originally Posted by Hanos
Obviously that is a personal decision, but when you realize how few melee trinkets there are, unless your other rogue is using some combo or WSC, Tsunami and Madness, you are depriving him of a 30 DPS upgrade so that you can pick up a 3-5 DPS upgrade (aka smaller then any real upgrade in BT by a significant margin... most are in t 15-25 range). I also expect to see more armor penetration and expertise gear in Sunwell, but WSC, DST and Madness all scale exceptionally well, and are so close in DPS that taking a third when you have two and others needs them seems greedy.... atleast to me.
Obviously this seems greedy I agree with you 100%, but I wanted the item since we started raiding and like I said the people up for it after me weren't long term members, so just because it drops now rather than before doesn't change the situation for me. I wanted it then, I deserved it then. I want it not, I deserve it now. Good upgrades I do pass, I usually keep the mindset that "eh I'll get it next time, he can get it first", but with items like MoTB and DST I can't see myself passing after waiting 10months for it. The rogue loot distribution in my guild has never been very competitive, it was clean and dry and pretty evenly distributed. People in my guild wouldn't cause Drama if I got it, I'm sure of that.
I had an almost crazy idea 5 minutes ago(actually I've thought of it pre-TBC but totally forgot it), even though I'm sure I'm not the only one. Rogues rarely use a Guardian Elixir, they usually have just a Battle Elixir or a Flask. I, personaly don't use any flasks, as an alchemist without FoRA discovery(no discoveries at all actually /cry). So what if I use Gift of Arthas as Guardian elixir? The effect lasts 3 min and it's +8 damage. Of course this is not directly connected to Hemorrhage, but fits the role of increasing raid DPS. It's a constant +8 damage for all the raid plus 360 everytime I use hemorrhage. What do you think?
Gift of Arthas is a chance you are hit to give the debuff to the attacker, not a chance on hit by you, which is what I think you were getting at. So its more of a tanking elixir (of course).
The primary problem, I think, with this argument right now is the unreliability of predictions and absence of observations of Hemo's debuff damage.
So I started writing a combat log parser in java. It rapidly became plain that this, too, would be imperfect; enemy armor damage reduction can be estimated, but with a wide margin of error. Then I realized that I would have to test for every melee ability in the game in order to distinguish physical attacks from spells - I spent all damned day on this, I'm not going to spend all week. I'm a newbie programmer; this stuff is hard work for me.
Then I ran into a bug I couldn't find, and the overpowering meh took me.
But even though I'm abandoning it (at least until next week, when I get back from where I'll be for Thanksgiving) I don't want this to die: the code seems to be sound, though it's incompletely commented it should still be fairly penetrable. Especially to someone who knows more java than I do.
Another idea I had was to try to integrate it with the old WWS codebase (until 1.6 WWS was open-source), but it seemed like I would spend WAY more time fixing that than I would actually writing the hemo calculator. And the comments are in French, QQ
// Hemo damage parser. Takes an argument of a filename and reads standard-format combat logs to estimate contributed damage from hemo.
// Programmed by Tirith from Feathermoon.
import java.io.BufferedReader;
import java.io.FileReader;
import java.io.IOException;
import java.io.InputStreamReader;
import java.util.StringTokenizer;
public class HemoParser {
public static String fileName = "C:\\Program Files\\World of Warcraft\\Logs\\WoWCombatLog.txt";
/**
* @param args
*/
public static void main(String[] args) {
String name = "";
int mHemo = 0;
int range = 0;
BufferedReader stdin = new BufferedReader( new InputStreamReader( System.in ) );
if (args.length == 1) {
fileName = args[0];
}
System.out.println("How wide is your damage range?");
try {
range = Integer.valueOf(stdin.readLine());
}
catch(Exception e) {
System.err.println("Use a number you idiot " + e.toString());
}
try {
mHemo = maxHemo();
}
catch(Exception e) {
System.err.println("File read error. I bet it's your fault. " + e.toString());
}
try {
System.out.println(hemoDamage(mHemo, range));
}
catch(Exception e) {
System.err.println("File read error. I bet it's your fault. " + e.toString());
}
}
static String hemoDamage(int maxHemo, int range) throws IOException {
int armorless = (maxHemo-range/2); // Yes, this means that sometimes the hemo mod will behave as if armor is less than zero; it also means that sometimes hemo will behave as if armor is greater than it is. It should balance, statistically speaking. Any better ideas?
float armorFactor = 0;
int damage = 0;
int yourDamage = 0;
int charges = 0;
int wasteCharge = 0;
int crit = 0;
String line = "";
String tar = "";
StringTokenizer st;
BufferedReader in = new BufferedReader (new FileReader (fileName));
while (in.ready()) {
line = in.readLine();
if (line.length() > 40 && (line.substring(20,40).compareTo("Your Hemorrhage hits") == 0 || line.substring(20,40).compareTo("Your Hemorrhage crit") == 0)){ //on a hemo
wasteCharge+= charges;
charges = 10;
st = new StringTokenizer(line);
while(st.hasMoreTokens() && !(st.nextToken().equalsIgnoreCase("hits") || st.nextToken().equalsIgnoreCase("crits")) ); //the bug is around here somewhere
if (st.hasMoreTokens())
tar = st.nextToken(); //TODO: add multi-word targets
st = new StringTokenizer(line);
crit = 1; //these next lines hunt down how hard your hit or crit was to estimate armor
for (int i = st.countTokens(); i > 0; i--) {
String tok = st.nextToken();
boolean done = false;
if (tok.equalsIgnoreCase("crits"))
crit = 2;
for (int j = 0; j + 1 < tok.length(); j++) {
if (tok.charAt(j) <= 48 || tok.charAt(j) >= 57) {
break;
}
if (j + 2 == tok.length()) {
armorFactor = (Integer.valueOf(tok.substring(0, tok.length()-1))/crit)/armorless; // this hemo's damage (adjusted for crit) divided by the maximum hemo.
}
if (done)
break;
}
}
}
else if (charges > 0) { //on a non-hemo line with charges remaining
st = new StringTokenizer(line.substring(20));
crit = 0;
if (physical(line)) { //Test for physical damage
while(st.hasMoreTokens()) {
String str = st.nextToken();
boolean you = false;
if (str.equalsIgnoreCase("you")) { //we're only adding others' benefit from hemo here, not yours. This might be edited.
you = true;
}
if (str.contains(("hit"))){
if (you) {
yourDamage +=36*armorFactor;
charges--;
break;
}
else {
damage += 36*armorFactor;
charges--;
break;
}
}
else if (str.equalsIgnoreCase("crits")){
if (you) {
yourDamage +=72*armorFactor;
charges--;
break;
}
else {
damage += 72*armorFactor;
charges--;
break;
}
}
}
}
}
}
return ("Others' damage from hemo: "+damage+"\nYour damage from hemo: " +yourDamage+"\nWasted Charges: "+wasteCharge);
}
static boolean physical(String line) { //TODO: make this an actual test for whether the attack is physical >.>
boolean phys = true;
return phys;
}
static int maxHemo () throws IOException {
int maxHemo = 0;
String line = "";
StringTokenizer st;
BufferedReader in = new BufferedReader (new FileReader (fileName));
while (in.ready()) {
line = in.readLine();
if (line.length() > 40 && line.substring(20,40).compareTo("Your Hemorrhage hits") == 0){
st = new StringTokenizer(line);
for (int i = st.countTokens(); i > 0; i--) {
String tok = st.nextToken();
boolean done = false;
for (int j = 0; j + 1 < tok.length(); j++) {
if (tok.charAt(j) <= 48 || tok.charAt(j) >= 57) {
break;
}
if (j + 2 == tok.length()) {
if (Integer.valueOf(tok.substring(0, tok.length() -1)) > maxHemo) {
maxHemo = Integer.valueOf(tok.substring(0, tok.length() -1));
done = true;
}
}
if (done)
break;
}
}
}
}
return maxHemo;
}
}
As said before, I took one hemorrhage build for a spin, the Hemo/Seal Fate one and made a log out of it. Note that I disregarded the general comments about this build and the steep requirements it involves. I also respecced back to my original Combat fist build, because the Hemo/Seal Fate didn't feel right at all. This produced two logs each providing a different build, but the exact same group setup and some interesting data if I might say so myself.
1st log was a 3% wipe and the other one a genuine kill.
As said before, I took one hemorrhage build for a spin, the Hemo/Seal Fate one and made a log out of it. Note that I disregarded the general comments about this build and the steep requirements it involves. I also respecced back to my original Combat fist build, because the Hemo/Seal Fate didn't feel right at all. This produced two logs each providing a different build, but the exact same group setup and some interesting data if I might say so myself.
1st log was a 3% wipe and the other one a genuine kill.
OK, so you see a difference of about 100 personal DPS in favour of combat. In a 10-man group, it is probable that you use up at least 3-4 of your Hemo charges yourself, thus these have already been vectored into your measured DPS.
That leaves 6-7 charges per Hemo as "unseen" DPS in this comparison, assuming they all get used. Since you will be hitting Hemo about once every 3.5 seconds, a reasonable estimate for this is (36 * 6.5) / 3.5 DPS = 67 DPS. Now, this gets multiplied up by the average crit rate of the other physical DPS - something around 30% is likely. 67 * 1.3 = 87.1 DPS. That's not quite enough to close the gap between the builds, so it would be fair to say that your combat build almost certainly outperformed the Hemo/Seal Fate build by a small margin. However, the margin's not more than 1 or 2% of your DPS.
Gift of Arthas is a chance you are hit to give the debuff to the attacker, not a chance on hit by you, which is what I think you were getting at. So its more of a tanking elixir (of course).
Correct, it was too late to come up with ideas >.<
I don't think it's worth if only the tank can use it though.
OK, so you see a difference of about 100 personal DPS in favour of combat. In a 10-man group, it is probable that you use up at least 3-4 of your Hemo charges yourself, thus these have already been vectored into your measured DPS.
That leaves 6-7 charges per Hemo as "unseen" DPS in this comparison, assuming they all get used. Since you will be hitting Hemo about once every 3.5 seconds, a reasonable estimate for this is (36 * 6.5) / 3.5 DPS = 67 DPS. Now, this gets multiplied up by the average crit rate of the other physical DPS - something around 30% is likely. 67 * 1.3 = 87.1 DPS. That's not quite enough to close the gap between the builds, so it would be fair to say that your combat build almost certainly outperformed the Hemo/Seal Fate build by a small margin. However, the margin's not more than 1 or 2% of your DPS.
If paired with the original ideology that such a build needs an abundance of crit and the Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality to gain leverage. I would say that such a build does have a future in end-game content, correct testing needs to be done to say anything conclusive about it though, varying in different settings as well.
Notable points that do not bear any positive effects on raiding are that this build is a pleasure to play out in pvp and solo farming. It's something different, but not necessarily a handicap to your guild.
Hmm. Also of note is the fact that as Hemo he had 27% crit rate on specials, but only 20% as combat. There's no reason for that in the spec, so that must be down to the inherent variability of the dice. Given that, the SF build is probably overstated relative to the combat build in this test.
In general the SF build will have much higher variability from fight to fight depending on crit streaks. This is not a desirable characteristic when raiding. The only way to eliminate this as a factor is to have a crit rate high enough to reliably average out over short (few minute) timespans. In practice this means the only raiding builds with SF are dagger builds with the extra crit from improved backstab (i.e. Mutilate builds).
Personally, I think it easier to just say raid crit is canceled by the armor reduction and call it a wash. I just add 100 dps and call it good since its an approximation anyway.
Hmm. Also of note is the fact that as Hemo he had 27% crit rate on specials, but only 20% as combat. There's no reason for that in the spec, so that must be down to the inherent variability of the dice.