I just got done with an SSC run this evening, testing out 31/0/30 seal fate/hemo because I had found it quite fun in PvP and was hoping to make it work in PvE. I found that on Tidewalker I had lost quite a bit of damage and the cycles were quite often more trouble than it's worth. Despite having a 49-55% crit rate per boss fight, I'd usually find myself needing to use a 5s/5r/3-4s rotation, depending on my luck with crits. Also, instead of blowing everyone else out of the water on damage, as I often do, I was sitting squarely behind our warlocks and on more melee friendly fights just barely ahead of them. Actual WWS data is not available at this time because we're waiting on people to roll their logs and our man to upload them to Lossendil's site, but I am pretty sure that I underperformed using this spec.
Just to be clear, I was using 31/0/30 with vigor as opposed to 30/0/31 with premed, and I was using the Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality as well as having regemmed my gear from 10 hit gems to 5 hit/5 agi gems. Not having Precision from the combat tree, combined with a 236 hit rating, was pretty atrocious. I'm not used to missing that much and it was pretty obnoxious.
I really enjoy this spec in BGs because it tears through undergeared opponents like nothing else, but it's just not something I can see myself using in PvE and I don't need to have the math in front of my right now to know it's probably overrated in the DPS spreadsheet. It estimated something like 2200 dps with my gear and instead I came out with 1894 after a perfect Tidewalker with 0 watery graves.
If you wanted it to proc more, wouldn't MH be the way to go no matter what your OH speed is? I was under the impression that normalized PPM meant that a 1.4 offhand would only get half the proc chance per swing of a 2.8 mainhand. Add in that every Hemo gets the 2.8 proc chance, and if you're rocking swords every OH swing that procs a MH swing gives another 2.8 proc chance, and you come out with a massively larger proc rate from the MH.
Let's say it's normalized at 1 PPM. You get 21.4 mainhand swings per minute, and 42.8 offhand swings. That means a 2.8 mainhand has ~4.7% chance per swing to proc. A 1.4 offhand would get ~2.35% chance per swing. Add in another 17.1 MH swings per minute from Hemo (ignoring marginal energy gains/losses from finishers), ~1 swing per minute from MH Sword Spec, and ~2 swings per minute from OH Sword Spec. That means you actually get ~41.5 swings per minute, meaning your MH will proc 1.95 times per minute, compared to 1 per minute from the OH. This would change if you use Shiv a lot, but I've never seen that in a consistent ability rotation, so I'll ignore the possibility. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, because it's the assumption I've been running on
Thank you, I've never cared or asked about which procs more and as stated in many posts I don't know or follow up on all the math behind the mechanics of the game even though I feel I do know a good deal about the ins and outs of a rogue.
Regardless I intend to someday soon get a new MH so I guess I didn't feel like wasting the money as the deciding factor. TBH this might not be that bad, with the possible hidden CD of Executioner and the fact I can sometimes go over the Armor cap if too many procs go off, I may actually rather have mongoose proccing more. O and I have no degree of saying you are wrong, in initial testing I did see even while shivving a mob I had 2 mongoose procs before 1 executioner, that doesn't seem to have been a flook.
Originally Posted by Brandontu
You're right. Killars doesn't have a clue how PPMs work if he thinks that his OH is going to be procing the enchant as much as his MH (because of instant attacks) unless he uses shiv as his main attack.... which I wouldn't put past him.
This made me chuckle esp. after I had already stated I was completely uncertain about my decision.
Don't be an idiot. Cold blood applies to one attack every 3 minutes.
Sure it only applies every 3 minutes, but it still can have a noticeable effect. (Not 7%, but more like 2%.)
Take, for example, a rogue with a 25% crit rate, and assume a 3 minute fight. Over the course of a 3 minute fight, let's assume (for simplicity), that 100% of energy generated goes into Hemo attacks.
3 * 10 energy/sec * 60 seconds = 1800 energy
1800 energy / (35 energy/Hemo) = 51.4 Hemos
(In reality, it will be less than this, since some SnDs won't proc Relentless Strikes, etc.)
Now, assume that exactly 25% crit:
51.4*0.25 = 12.85 Hemo crits
Now, assume that we use Cold Blood to make exactly 1 more Hemo crit (and for simplicity we'll say it's one that wouldn't have otherwise crit):
13.85 Hemo crits / 51.4 Hemos = 26.9% crit rate
So, in this theoretical case, Cold Blood can account for >1.5% crit rate increase. Not 7%, certainly, but it does bring the numbers closer. In a fight where there isn't 100% energy usage, Cold Blood will bring the crit rate up even more than that.
Sure it only applies every 3 minutes, but it still can have a noticeable effect. (Not 7%, but more like 2%.)
Take, for example, a rogue with a 25% crit rate, and assume a 3 minute fight. Over the course of a 3 minute fight, let's assume (for simplicity), that 100% of energy generated goes into Hemo attacks.
3 * 10 energy/sec * 60 seconds = 1800 energy
1800 energy / (35 energy/Hemo) = 51.4 Hemos
(In reality, it will be less than this, since some SnDs won't proc Relentless Strikes, etc.)
Now, assume that exactly 25% crit:
51.4*0.25 = 12.85 Hemo crits
Now, assume that we use Cold Blood to make exactly 1 more Hemo crit (and for simplicity we'll say it's one that wouldn't have otherwise crit):
13.85 Hemo crits / 51.4 Hemos = 26.9% crit rate
So, in this theoretical case, Cold Blood can account for >1.5% crit rate increase. Not 7%, certainly, but it does bring the numbers closer. In a fight where there isn't 100% energy usage, Cold Blood will bring the crit rate up even more than that.
Thanks for the more dignified response, however I should have made it more clear that I did not factor all of the percentage point change into Cold Blood.
At the moment I'm trying to decide if I should try out 11/27/23, but I like having a spec that doesn't require me to use only swords (and prep works wonders for repair bills on vashj attempts ).
Please enlighten me did you outgear other rogues badly or how did you make 30/0/31 spec worth of it? I've tried similar spec in Illidan also and was blown away by combat sword rogues by about 40-80k (2-5%) only in Phase1+2 combined. I am probably missing some key things with that spec, what cycles/finishers did you use? The damage just felt kinda weak when I tried it, even with BT trinket.
I dont outgear the other rogues. As far as im aware armor ignore is as usefull for this build as a combat build since it doesnt only increase damage on white atacks. I used s4-5/r4-5 rotation as I dont want to waste my points by criting on a hemo when I already have 4 points. I used evisc on the rare occasions when I have 10 sec + on both other finishers running and high energy. But as I said before I still dont believe this would be the best build and am sure there must have been some exceptional circimstance. But I cant think what so I will test it on Teron.
I dont outgear the other rogues. As far as im aware armor ignore is as usefull for this build as a combat build since it doesnt only increase damage on white atacks. I used s4-5/r4-5 rotation as I dont want to waste my points by criting on a hemo when I already have 4 points. I used evisc on the rare occasions when I have 10 sec + on both other finishers running and high energy. But as I said before I still dont believe this would be the best build and am sure there must have been some exceptional circimstance. But I cant think what so I will test it on Teron.
Imp. Poison seems better than Vile Poisons for this type spec (like you have taken also according to Armory) because of really high missrate on white attacks (probably better be able to keep DP ticking than seeing it falling all the time). Im still not convinced about Premed over Vigor (or even poison talent).
The only odd thing I notice is that it only shows SND once on the hemo parse even though I know I kept it up the entire fight. Combat build I ran a 3s/5r cycle and hemo I run a 5s/5r cycle, so it's possible that it's not counting refreshes and the combat parse I actually had snd drop off during the fight.
The only odd thing I notice is that it only shows SND once on the hemo parse even though I know I kept it up the entire fight. Combat build I ran a 3s/5r cycle and hemo I run a 5s/5r cycle, so it's possible that it's not counting refreshes and the combat parse I actually had snd drop off during the fight.
If it doesn't ever drop it will only show once, if it does drop it will count every time it drops and you refresh it.
If it doesn't ever drop it will only show once, if it does drop it will count every time it drops and you refresh it.
Makes sense, I've never noticed that before in our WWS parses, but I'm usually not looking at buffs that closely. 3s/5r cycle was very tight at times, so it may be that my combat parse wasn't optimal. The hemo parse is, I was pretty much dead on with my rotation, though that's not that difficult when you run 5s/5r.
Incidentally I start off with garrote, then build up to 5 combo points and let my energy regen almost to full before starting my snd cycle. This allows me to keep up the Ashtongue trinket for almost all my specials and I can jump on the mob immediately without having to worry about initial agro. The hemo debuff is dropping very quickly, as you would expect with another rogue, two feral druids and a fury warrior in the raid, so I'm able to re-apply it at the gcd until I run low on energy. This seems to be the optimal rotation for me, but since it's my first time really raiding as hemo I'm still playing with it.
I'm loving 11/21/29 and the benefits but I'm finally gonna grab 4 piece tier 5 even though I'm still in MH/BT. As of now I'm wearing stacked Expertise and have 13 at the moment. When i lose the side pieces to the Tier gear im going to lose maybe 8 expertise. I'm thinking of going 11/27/23 with 4/5 Mace Spec even though its mathematically does worse damage. The question is when the spreadsheet calculated the potential DPS did dodged ruptures and the energy loss get mixed into the numbers.
The only odd thing I notice is that it only shows SND once on the hemo parse even though I know I kept it up the entire fight. Combat build I ran a 3s/5r cycle and hemo I run a 5s/5r cycle, so it's possible that it's not counting refreshes and the combat parse I actually had snd drop off during the fight.
Hrm...you had 5 more WF procs under combat, but 10 less sword procs. The fight seemed much shorter as well, and you had 5 less mongoose procs, as well as 1 less unleashed rage proc (unless thats a bug) and 5 hastes vs 6 as combat. Seems with some of those lost procs/effects in place you would be much closer to the combat dps output.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
Hrm...you had 5 more WF procs under combat, but 10 less sword procs. The fight seemed much shorter as well, and you had 5 less mongoose procs, as well as 1 less unleashed rage proc (unless thats a bug) and 5 hastes vs 6 as combat. Seems with some of those lost procs/effects in place you would be much closer to the combat dps output.
I think I misunderstood you or you flip-flopped the numbers.
Combat - 25 extra attacks due to windfury, 23 extra attacks due to sword spec (3m 54 sec)
Hemo - 31 extra attacks due to windfury, 14 extra attacks due to sword spec (3m 32sec)
The lower number of sword specialization attacks can be attributed (at least partly) to running 4/5 sword spec, though in a sample size this small that could simply be a function of a bad run on the random number generator. We did kill him 22 seconds faster last night because we ran with 7 healers and an extra dps vs. what we normally take to BT. All our kills were faster due to the extra damage output.
As far as the extra windfury attacks under hemo...I blame the rng.
Far from conclusive data, but it's enough to keep me specced hemo for a few weeks and continue analysing my parses. It appears that the gain in overall raid dps from the 6 - 7 charges (a rough estimate) that the rest of the melee utilize per hemo application outweighs my loss in personal dps.
EDIT - The lower mongoose procs on last night's parse is due to me having Executioner on my mainhand now, vs. mongoose on both swords in the combat parse. The 5 executioner procs make up the 5 missing mongoose.
It's safe to say that with variance in the random number generator a good hemo run would be as high or higher than a poor to mediocre combat run, but the math (and the personal parses) show it to be consistently behind combat with all things being equal. However, it's close enough, in my opinion, to be competitive.
/EDIT
Yeah I attributed the difference in SS and WF primarily to RNG. Also a shorter fight lends preference to combat whom is able to better capitalize on the AR dps buff (in terms of listed dps). Just seems between procs which largely are probably rng, you could easily make up some/much of the personal dps differences.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
Hrm...you had 5 more WF procs under combat, but 10 less sword procs. The fight seemed much shorter as well, and you had 5 less mongoose procs, as well as 1 less unleashed rage proc (unless thats a bug) and 5 hastes vs 6 as combat. Seems with some of those lost procs/effects in place you would be much closer to the combat dps output.
The number of UR procs isn't all that important; far more important is uptime, since WWS isn't going to see UR refreshes. That one less UR proc is easily explained by 1 overlapping UR proc, for example, or even more.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
I'm aware of the WWS refresh thing, where it doesn't show things that are refreshed, but you may have lost your groups warrior that may have accounted for you not getting a battle shout on the Hemo parse.
I'm not 100% on this, but I think the Ashtongue trinket is not that great with hemo builds and having only let 1 SnD fall off it would leave me to believe your wasting some SnD time by overlapping a bit causing a bit of decreased DPS, but not a lot (well at least that's a fair assumption). You also only had 7 haste over the 6 on the hemo parse, but it slips my mind what that buff is (Drums? DST?). I also think if you had more armor pen you'd see a pretty significant increase of damage. I noticed on your parses your warlocks do not apply CoR, which is a bigger increase to Hemo damage then Combat, further closing the gap. Add some more passive armor pen, Madness of the Betrayer or Warp Spring Coil and you would see that 50-60 DPS decrease to either a much smaller amount or purhaps you may actually be beating your combat spec. I truely believe that WSC while raiding hemo with Exc is prob the best trinket in the game or at least has the potential to be.
As you said, it's not conclusive but 50-60 personal DPS is definitely worth being Hemo, and I think you can do better (not to say you did poorly on your hemo parse). As you may already see I'm 100% a backer of the Hemo spec, and it being the new raid build for atleast 2 of the rogues in your guild. The 3rd/4th rogue that you may have be combat, would most likely do the best damage though, so that's something to keep in mind.
I still have to get some new parses of my own DPS, but that isn't atleast for another week, so let the debating and cross referencing continue =P
Just had a good laugh when i had a look at the 2.3.x ptr patch log...
* Hemorrhage: Rank 4 of this ability no longer has its charges consumed by non-physical attacks and spells.
n/c....
Well, that explains why people's observations of how quickly the hemo debuff dropped didn't match the math...
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Well, that explains why people's observations of how quickly the hemo debuff dropped didn't match the math...
Exactly, the debuff was vanishing instantly. It was insane. The real question is if the spells were getting the 36 bonus damage. If not, raids with only one hemo rogue(like mine) will see a DPS increase. If yes, then enjoy it as it lasts : )
I'm really not sure about this whole "xs/xr/xx" cycle business.
I've never though about having to do something like "ok, i must get 3snd then apply a 5 rupture and then wait for 3 points and use next snd".
I just refresh what needs refreshing. I don't really see how i could be losing dps by "not having 95% rupture uptime" or something.
Can anyone explain it to me - if i just snd, get 5 points, rupture, when snd runs out, refresh it with as much as i have and then rupture again with 5 points. (Opening garrote followed by snd and then just see where it takes me)
At times i have 5 points ready and about 6 seconds more of snd, but i can just wait for my energy regen and apply the snd as late as possible without wasting energy and the doing a rupture after that.
I've tried to accomodate the lethality trinket by using mostly 3 point finishers and having great trinket uptime but even so, i never have a certain cycle i use because variables change and doing it on-the-fly is much more efficient imo.
Here's my latest Teron WWS which worked out quite well WWS
Also, about having 8 snd applications, it's because i usually wait until the snd time reaches 0 and then apply a new one. This sometimes just refreshes, without the buff fading and sometimes it is off for a split second and reapplies.
Anyway, my point is - is it really worth it to do a "3/5, 5/5, 4/5" or whatever cycle and then saying "do this cycle with this gear"?
How can keeping 100% snd uptime and rupturing as often as possible be any less dps than an xx/xx cycle.
If you don't really want to obey a "cycle", then just keep doing what your doing- keep SnD up as much as possible, and keep rupture up as much as possible. The cycles are meant as guidelines for Special Education rogues- those cycles are the easiest way, given a certain build, to maximize uptime. In a perfect raid, following the cycle would give you close to 100% uptime for both rupture and SnD, thus maximizing your dps- we all know, though, that with positioning, knockbacks, procs, etc, theres no such thing as perfect, so tweak as you see fit.
Short answer? Ruthlessness and Relentless Strikes.
Longer answer:
Lets say you do 100 1pt SnDs, or 20 5pt SnDs. which will return more energy per combo point,through relentless?
The 20 5pt relentless procs will return exactly 20*25=500 energy.
as for the the 100 1pt SnDs; only 20% of them will proc relentless. 20% of 100 is... 20 procs. 20*25 energy = 500 energy.
So, in terms of relentless, your essentially getting a constant stream of energy returned, regardless of how many CPs you use your finishers at..
However, Ruthlessness has a 60% chance per finisher of returning a CP.
To absolutely maximize ruthlessness procs, you should use the *minimum* number of CPs per finisher that you can get away with, and do as many finishers as possible.
The damage output of rupture, however, increases with the number of CPs you use. You generally want to use 5CP to maximize rupture uptime and dmg output.
So, if your only going to use Rupture and SnD, the question becomes whats the minimum number of CPs you should use on SnD, to maximize snd uptime and also maximize the number of relentless strikes procs.
Well, do you have imp. SnD? do you have 2pc t4 equipped? if so, then you can maybe get away with 2-3 cp SnDs. if you don't have either of those talents, then your going to need 4s/5s in order to maintain SnD uptime.
11/20/07, 3:26 AM
).
Similar Threads
