• Vulajin

Most likely your on-the-fly cycle will greatly resemble the "set" cycle you would be recommended in a thread like this or in the Roguecraft thread. As has been explained, the point of a cycle is to keep ~100% Slice uptime and as much Rupture uptime as possible. Since Rupture's damage depends on the number of CP used on it, and Slice's effect remains constant regardless of the CP used (only the duration changes), it's obviously a good plan to revolve your cycle around 5-CP Ruptures. However, if you're pressed for energy, you can downgrade to as little as a 3-CP Rupture and still get mostly the same DPS (3 through 5 get the same amount of AP bonus DPS, the only difference is 4.5 base DPS per combo point).

Constructing an on-the-fly cycle is great for short fights and highly interrupted fights, but for fights like Morogrim where you can stand in and DPS (at least while you're not getting graved), having a set cycle will likely be superior to altering your cycle constantly (although, again, the aforementioned concern about getting graved). It's not a "special education" method of playing, it's just a more calculated way of doing it. I alter my cycles plenty, but I also like having a set one to use on those fights like Morogrim so that I can figure out, for example, ways of working in cooldowns for maximum output.

 

HENNESSY

Is it with a hemo spec like 11/28/22 still good to stack a lot of +hit gems like with combat? I read some people say its better to have agi gems with hemo, is this true?

 

Ruqas

The EP ratings Vulajin provides in the Roguecraft thread are very helpful for this. Check spreadsheets to be sure, but generally, hit rating is still good for Hemo-swords.

Now how she taketh mine eye.

 

Killars

I'm 11/27/33.

I just got a DST. I have WSC and Madness. Taking into account armor pen from procs and passive gear (executioner, full sunder, FF, and CoR) which 2 trinket should I use. If DST come out as one of them, which I'm sure it will, should I up my hit from the 249 it will be at. I can simply switch out some 5hit/5agil with +10 hit still maintaining socket bonuses in some places. Throw me some feedback please, thanks.

 

Mideci

Feedback: Download one of the spreadsheets. Plug in your choices. Your answers are quite literally there.

 

koaschten

My guess, the spreadsheets will tell you to up your hit, wear DST and toggle between WSC and BT Class trinket. Just an educated guess, thats how it looks for me anyway.

PS: ffs use spreadsheet

 

Ashere

I found with 11/2x/2x that it usually takes between 13 and 15 seconds to get 5 CP's. Effectively, this means that when I have about 15 seconds left of SnD, I do my rupture, and then build up fresh CP's for the next SnD to have the next 5 pointer lined up when SnD runs out. So the first 15 seconds of an SnD are for the Rupture, then the next 15 seconds are for the next SnD, and both will be 5 pointers on basically every cycle.

You could try a 4/5 cycle, but you'll find that you're usually about 1 second short to refresh your SnD. A 4/4 cycle works very well, it gives you plenty of time to refresh it, but a 4pt Rupture gains less AP bonus then a 5 pointer, so that's why the 5/5 cycle is better, even if it is much tighter.

 

◊ Hanos

The spreadsheet puts +hit as worth more then Agi at your level of gear, and from my experience, I am getting a larger percentage of my damage from white damage then the Combat Swords rogue, and he has 2-Piece T5, and I don't (stupid drops....), and I am still seeing 5% more of my total damage in white damage, which is what +hit is going to affect.

Wow Web Stats
Clear through RoS this week (I forgot to parse Mother - Illidan + Rage, Anetheron last night)

Apocc is Combat Swords (got the helm last night, so he was using T4 in the parse, I got the OH Sword last night, so I was using th S2 Offhand before, those are the only changes).

My guess with trinkets would be to use DST + Warpsping on almost everything. I would use Madness with Warpspring on low armor bosses (Mother, Council, etc.), and possibly DST + Madness on trash (due to larger non-proc based DPS Stats... nothing like having WSC proc on your last SS/Hemo).

For a boss fight, with ideal gear the DPS ranking should be as follows according to the spreadsheet:
1. Warp-Sping Coil (33.7)
2. Dragonspine (28.7)
3. Madness (27.1)
4. Tsunami (23.9)
Value listed is the upgrade over Drake Fang Talisman, which has similar DPS to most of the other rogue DPS trinkets (not including the new ZA one). As you can see you are looking at about a 1.5 DPS difference between DST and Madness.

On a side note... damn you for having all 3 trinkets, killing Gruul since March... seen 1 DST drop after transferring to a new guild, never seen a Madness (guild has 1).

 

Killars

Sorry, I tend to ask before plugging in SS stuff. Truthfully I just trust human testing and opinion over a generalize spreadsheet. I'm just one of those guys... You could always ignore me though =P

O and BT Class trinket is crap for my build. If I was combat I would use that in a heart beat.

Hmm im a bit sceptical about it all... Well sceptical about the rankings of trinkets. I figure WSC with armor pen is extremely strong, but taking into account its 35sec hidden CD I'm a little uncertain. Is the spreadsheet showing DST as a 25second hidden CD, because I hear a lot of people saying it's 45 and from personal use I'm pretty certain its 25.

I think my guild will kill me if I don't use MoTB so I think I have to use that by default (we only have one in about 6or7 kills). Ashtongue is clearly not better than the three for Hemo so I cancelled that out completely. WSC I really do like, the hit is something that becomes a pain in the ass to replace, even though the DST has a pretty nice passive 40AP on it. Just doing some thinking and I really can't deny my previous statement from pages back about WSC prob being the best trinket for a end game raiding rogue, the armor pen just scales too well. So I guess I'll just do random testing seeing if I like WSC/DST or WSC/MotB. I'll prob use WSC/MoTB on low armor bosses, and MoTB/DST on high armor seeing as how they WSC becomes a lot worse with high armor bosses.

O and the DST came from a 4hr Gruul pug where I actually had to nicely ask my guild MT (who has every tank item in the game basically) to come in and help out. He actually had to shield wall at 12 growths due to healing, yea it was a fun night to say the least, and it was the first DST I have ever seen drop in the 9-10 months I have ran Gruul. My guildies are most likely going to kill me if they find out I don't use MoTB or DST considering the Rogues/Warriors in my guild all don't have either of my trinkets, their own class trinket, or a TT. eeeek!

 

◊ Hanos

Armor Penetration doesn't scale quite as well as we were guessing, but it is better then we thought when not stacking it. Here is a post I made on my guild forum (warning... this is long and sort of stream of consciousness... short version at the bottom):


The bottom line is that even if you assume that the mob has full armor with no debuffs, 175 armor penetration will give you a 0.9% increase in damage on every hit affected by armor, which for me is about 90%, so .9 x 90% = 0.81% increase in damage. Armor penetration appears to be valued at .1 so 175 -Armor costs the same at 17.5 Hit Rating. 18 Hit Rating will give you 1.14% more hit, which affects 68% of my damage (according to our last Teron kill), 1.14 x 68% = .77% increase in damage. So even on an debuffed mob, -armor is better then the same amount of +hit, and if you go to a fully debuffed mob, that last 175 armor penetration is worth 1.46% x .9 = 1.31% increase in DPS.




As far as the trinkets, the spreadsheet puts WSC at 375 average -Armor, 15 seconds of uptime, 35 second internal cooldown, 1000 armor on proc, so you assume it procs every 40 seconds, and you get an average value of 375. Assuming just raid debuffs you are going to see 2780 Armor (Sunder, FF, CoR, Shoulders, Gloves, and Serrated Blades), that 375 armor is worth a 2.3% increase in total damage. 21 Hit Rating is worth a .9% increase, so WSC is worth 3.2% more damage.

Dragonspine, if you assume a 25 second internal cooldown, 10 second uptime, 325 Haste (which is 20.7%), then I would assume you would see a proc every 30 seconds, so essentially 33% uptime or 6.8% more Haste on average. For Hemo, the Haste only benefits White damage so you would see 6.8% x 68% = 4.6% more damage, 40 AP is worth about .7% more DPS, so 5.3% gain.

Madness, not sure what the internal CD is or if there is one, the spreadsheet models it at 120 average armor penetation, with 20 Hit, and 84 AP. So you assume that the 84 AP is a 1.5% increase, the 20 Hit is a .86% increase and 120 armor is .73% increase and you get that Madness is a 3.09% increase, and slightly behind Warspring, even if Executioner/Warp-Spring Procs aren't up, if they are up, the War-Spring is even better.

I am going to stand by:
Dragonspine with Warp-Spring on bosses and Madness on trash.

 

Trazhenko

It doesn't change the ranking, but 10s proc every 30 sec is only 33% uptime for dragonspine. It brings the gain down to 5.39% from your 7.5%, but it's still the best trinket.

 

◊ Hanos

Thanks, fixed. I thought that looked high.

 

Killars

Yea, people are gonna be pisssed...

MoTB is gonna take a seat next to the Ashtongue trinket for some fights, o well. The CD is 0 btw, I see it refresh itself all the time so actually the DST buffs MoTB you can say.

Man I really hate to "bench" the MoTB, I guess it's a mental thing that is just in my head considering how I wanted it ever since I heard of it back before I even entered BT. Eh, with the little noticable difference I think I'm just gonna stick with my plan of using WSC only for lower armor bosses, with always keeping DST on.

Anyways, back to the purely Hemo discussion, even though this kinda is one... Sorry for the derailing. I also have a great WWS parse of Bloodboil and Teron coming up for the first time giving me a good idea of how good hemo was, even though I didn't have a Enh shaman (I usually do) and on Teron my resto shaman dropping WF died very early.

 

Anked

So, if I'm reading this correctly 19/42/0 combat swords is on par (as in comparable) to 11/27/23 Hemo hybrid for raiding on all levels. Both using the same itemization and both using 2x swords. The spreadsheet would say the hemo build should pull ahead, but what I'm seeing is that the combat sword build pulls a little ahead. Am I correct in that summation?

As a side note, I gave 31/0/30 a shot. I must say this has been the most fun build I have ever used to PvP/5-man in. For 25 man raids i find it annoying at best. The only cycle that really showed promise was a 3s/3r cycle inserting a 5r when crits were nice. It did decent damage, but overall was a personal hit in the dps department. It was nice for boss fights though... having that extra vanish really comes in handy. Sadly, not handy enough to make up the damage difference.

I'll be going to either 19/42/0 or 11/27/23 tues night prior to raiding.

 

ekval

If you PvP at all with same spec that you PvE, combat is far more better in PvP compared to trispec hemo.

 

Killars

To answer the build questions, yes combat vs the hemo build is pretty close in comparison, but I'd say it would depend a lot on how much armor pen you have via procs, passive gear, and debuffs. So in lower raiding content Hemo may become more significantly worse.

As far as a PvP spec the double AR via prep build is pretty much the new competitive rogue spec. I hit 2225 in 2v2 with a similar specced rogue who used maces. I have swords, so technically it could have been even better. We are now at high 2100's, but kinda don't care due to the fact we're both point capped and are disgusted with Pally teams. lol god damn BOP, we get owned by those.

Yea and sorry to do this again, but I can't get it off my mind.... Yes it's again about armor pen and trinket with a Hemo build

This is the senario I will have indefinitely.

take the 7700 and 6200 armor bosses into consideration.
-2600 Sunder
-800 CoR
-610 Faerie Fire
-560 Serrated Blades
-175 Shoulders
-175 Gloves
-125 Ring

Thats 2655 and 1155 respectively before procs.
-1000 WSC
-840 Executioner
-300 Madness

So clearly on lower armor bosses I and the other poster was wrong, or at least that's what I think. Using a WSC on lower armor bosses is a bad idea considering Exc has no hidden CD and WSC could easily proc with it making the trinket or enchant pretty useless (boss would be at -700~ armor). So typically I would rather use MoTB there making a double proc, which is frequent due to no CD on MoTB either, very effective (boss would be at 15~ armor).

High armor bosses would however would get a big benefit from WSC. I would prob still use DST over MOTB because I think it's still flat out better and a triple proc isn't as frequent, but that im the least sure of over anything else I said. So the high armor boss with a double proc I'd get it to be at 815 which is pretty sweet for a high armor boss.

Think I'm done, just wanted to fix my/our mistakes on the choices made in earlier posts. Ok, apologizing again... sorry!

 

Anked

How do you figure? Sub > Combat for PvP any day... You want utility & burst over long term dps in a PvP world, so how could a combat build be better then a competent build that goes up the sub tree?

Fact is I'm leaning more toward 11/27/23 because I like to PvP. I made the statement originally because the spreadsheet and actual testing seem to conflict in results, and I wanted to clarify where the line between the two specs really sit. The spreadsheet says 11/27/23 should be better then 19/42/0 in all regards at all levels of gear. In practice it seems that most are saying that 19/42/0 is marginally better in personal dps but on par with 11/27/23 when the hemo debuff is taken into account for the raid.

If it turns out the majority of testing shows 19/42/0 to be better for raiding by 5% or more I'll go that road, otherwise I will happily be a 11/27/23 hemo hybrid for a good while.

 

◊ Hanos

My guess is you aren't using the spreadsheet correctly, turn off Hemo in both the gear and talents tab, and show me a set of gear that beats Combat straight up. With my gear, I am showing Combat is ahead by about 2.5%. With an Arena rating in the 1300's your spec really doesn't matter as you are playing against 13 year old kids who don't have a clue, however if you are at 1700+ (no my main's team isn't there currently but my alt's is) then 41/20/0 (Combat Mutilate) and 0/31/30 (Hemo/AR/Prep) are the preferred specs, the advantage of 0/31/30 is you get 30 seconds of AR, which is enough to burn down almost anything if timed correctly. Tri-Spec Hemo is a Raid Spec, it works for your level of Arena, but it is far from ideal.

 

Anked

I think you're missing the point here. I want a raid spec... I'm not looking for a PvP spec. I like to PvP, I have never been in a serious arena team. Those I have been in were just to farm points and I took whoever wanted to go and made the best of it. Still ended up with a 50% win record only doing casual arena PvP. The majority of the arena I have done was 2v2 with a little 3v3 and one week of 5v5.

I find it hard to believe 19/42/0 is better in the arena then 11/27/23.

I'll look at the spreadsheet again, but why would you turn off both if you are using hemo? That sounds a little silly to have a setting where you can turn it on if when you are using hemo it should always be on... or for that matter why you would turn it of if you were using hemo for a comparison. Is there some kind of mysteriously retarded reason for this?

 

Melnor

The OP was referring to the Tri-spec hemo build only. AR/Prep subtlety builds need not apply.

11/27/23 is inferior in that regards because the build really has no burst capabilities. What makes deep combat good in pvp is AR, undodgeable finishers, the slim chance of combat potency proccing, stun/fear resist, and a minute amount of stamina. In 5v5, tri spec may be acceptable but in 2s or 3s where a rogue's burst ability is relied upon more, tri-spec would not be the best choice.

 

Killars

Yea Hanos is on the money. Along having 30 seconds of AR you can get 2 Imp sprint, 2 Evasions, and 2 Vanishs. You also can still get the Fear/Stun resist along with 4% more stam and 2% more agil. Getting Riposte is also something very useful you can take. The survivablity of this build along with the insane burst damage is flat out ridiculous. Mutilate might be comparable, but IMO nothing is better than that AR/Prep/Hemo build.

 

◊ Hanos

There are 2 options:
Talents Tab: Include Hemo Debuff, DPS Estimate - This there to calculate the damage you add to the raid NOT your personal damage, every time you Hemo you put up 10 charges, this is the value of those 10 charges being used by people other then you.

Gear _ Buffs Tab: Hemorrhage under Boss Debuffs, this is adding 36 damage every time you melee the boss, this might be the case if you have 3 or 4 Hemo rogues, and you never use all the charges

You will never get both, because the first one assumes that all your charges are used, and the second assumes that there are charges available for every hit.

The realistic thing for your PERSONAL DPS number that will show up on WWS or SWS, is closer to not checking the Hemo Debuff on the Talents page, and getting maybe 20-30% of the Hemo Debuff on the Gear Page, depending on the number of Hemo rogues compared to the number of melee. Aka if you have 3 Hemo rogues, and not much other melee DPS, then you will get closer to the number with Hemo selected on the Gear tab, but right now with Rank 4 bugged anyway... unchecking both will put you closer to your realistic DPS.

 

Anked

And that would explain it... See it would be better to have a more realistic setting for the hemo debuff rather then just always on and always off. I don't code the spreadsheet, so I won't say much more on it, but that is indeed frustrating.

Indeed, what you say is true. The kicker is the "Include Hemo debuff DPS estimate" in the talent section. With it off 11/27/23 comes in 5.9% behind unbuffed and 4.7% behind buffed... check that little box and it's 3.1% better unbuffed and 2.1% better buffed.

I'm thinking I'll go back to 19/42/0 until they finish getting the bugs worked out with hemo and it's raid benifit can truly be tested.

 

◊ Hanos

At your gear level there is no personal benefit to Hemo, and due to the fact that rank 4 is bugged, the raid benefit is minimal. When you get into T6 level gear, the personal DPS is close enough, that the added benefits make it viable.

 

Ariashley

Believe it. First, you would uncheck the count the hemo debuff box for arena because all 10 hemo charges are unlikely to be consumed, so you don't count them in your damage output.

There is nothing good about 11/27/23 for arena really. It has no burst damage at all. It doesn't have any improved resistances to anything, no survivability from cheat death, no prep for extra cooldowns. The only burst is SnD and Blade Flurry - just speed boosts, which don't do you a darn bit of good if someone gets away from you.

Full Combat (at least to AR) has decent burst, when you combine Blade Flurry with AR, not too many survive. When you can blow AR a second time with AR prep and you use maces for stun, that's burst without much retaliation. I have a lot of fun with 23/0/38 in arena (Cold Blood, Cheat Death). Cheat death has won a lot of battles. 2 Cold Blood Eviscerates with Improved Eviscerate and 2/5 T5 set bonus and often with recent stealth bonus damage hurt someone a lot (ouch, yes, I just hit you for 3k). A 4-5 pt premed beginning of fight bleed on a warrior (that I then can hopefully leave to someone else to kill) is nice too.

If you want a hybrid build, 19/42/0 will do very very well in raid and is a good arena build (esp with maces). It will often destroy any rogue that isn't sub down to Cheat Death, since it blows through evasion with finishers. I accept that with 11/27/23, I respec anytime I want to PvP. Let's just say that 100-300g a week in respec costs is pretty much the norm for me now.