Ariashley

My calculations based on 2 hrs of actual 25-man raid test data show the calculations of hemo charges being used up pretty much exactly correspond with the time frames over which they should be used using the average number of physical attacks per second. Those mobs were also experiencing magical damage and that did not appear to be using up the debuffs (or the debuffs would have faded twice as fast).

Is it possible that they hotfixed this or that the data calling out the bug was inaccurate? I can go back through my combat log and see exactly how many attacks were between Void Reaver is afflicted by hemorrhage and Hemorrhage fades from Void Reaver. Like I said, averages show that the up times were all within a reasonably expected ranges based solely on the physical attacks.

 

Drinyth

I believe the current bug is that hemo charges are being consumed by both spells and physical attacks. It's supposed to only be consumed by physical attacks. This is supposed to be addressed in an upcoming patch.

 

Killars

Yea used up by spells not to mention the spells gaining no benefit!

 

◊ Hanos

Easier way to test... go Hemo a Mob, stop attacking, have a caster hit it with a spell... did the Hemo stack decrease? If yes, then it is still bugged, if not then it isn't.

 

Ariashley

I do all my dailies with a shaman partner to speed them up a lot. We'll test this out today. Have to make sure that the entire stack isn't just fading due to the passage of time since it only lasts 15 seconds. Should be enough time for shaman to get off a couple of spells. I should also be able to tell from my raid combat logs, since there are very clear afflicted by and fades from messages with a bunch of stuff happening between. Shouldn't be tough to count how many things hit Void Reaver and what they were.

I went to the US WoW Bug report forums. I saw 3 places where people reported this as a bug (around Nov 17th), no blue responses and it doesn't appear in their list of known issues (though a Cheat Death bug does appear there). Either they hot fixed it or haven't tested it or it's circumstatial or they couldn't recreate it.

I definitely have Rank 4 Hemo, which is what the bug reports have been about.

 

◊ Hanos

It is listed in the 2.3.2 Patch Notes as something they are fixing.

 

Radical

A couple people have asked about it, and I tried it. 31/0/30 is a fun spec in pvp, but really misses the mark for raid dps. I raided with the build through a clear of Hyjal through EoS in BT and was very disappointed. No WWS to back this up, but their is wasted energy/combo points in the build and ended up with an ~100-150dps loss (compared to 19/42/0). I dont think the hemo debuff (if it worked correctly) cold make up for this.

The build suffers from:
1) waste of combo points when SF procs with 4 CPs. Someone else may wish to just use 4 CP finishers (or 5 CP finisher only if you get a SF proc from 3CP).
2) extemely streaky CP generation in general makes keeping up any type of cycle up very hard. I took vigor in anticipation of this to help with managing my energy and cycles but it wasn't enough to smooth out the cycles.

In the end, this build lacked hit, OH dmg, and the extended SnD talent which made SnD a poor finisher if/when it was up. Also 2p T6 is not optimised without those talents. If someone is really interested to try it, this build may have a future in the right hands. I did find that favoring rupture over SnD in my cycles actually increased dps due to the low hit, so there may be a cycle that works, but i don't care to find it. I enjoyed the build alot in arena and BG pvp, but after one raid, I went back to home to combat.

 

virtuzoso

I switched to 11/27/23 last week from 20/41 and my opinion so far is that it is probably one of best respecs I have ever done. I have been playing a rogue since release, and the farthest I have ever specced in subtlety was 22 points back in the day when Barman Shanker was king and 21/8/22 was one hell of a good PvP build. My experience has actually been an increase in my personal DPS. Fights like Morogrim where you basically do nothing but DPS I may suffer a bit, but in fights where you switch targets alot or are more dynamic I feel that hemo is superior. Thats all anecdotal, so take it for what it is worth.

It took me a little while to get used to not having combat potency anymore, but once I adjusted to the 'feel' of it I am really happy with it and probably will not be switching for a long time. I don't really miss AR at all and the trade of of equal or better DPS for buffing the physical DPS a bit, having a shorter cooldown on vanish and being much more effective in PvP, its a respec well spent. It may not be to everyone's liking, but personally, I couldnt be happier with it.

 

ekval

Maybe little offtopic from main topic but I had same feelings when I respecced from typical combat swords to 11/27/23 spec, I loved it. It was easy to predict and work around with, lower vanish cooldown is pure win in few fights. After about a week I got totally bored of that spec. It didn't have any twist at all and it felt way too predictable. Problem probably for myself is that trispec hemo has quite alot longer cycles than combat one, it lacks twist from combat potency and doesn't have AR with it (one cooldown less to play with). What I got from your post was "much more effective in PvP", I can't agree at all. When I tried to arena with 11/27/23, it was pain, it just lacks AR burst, NoS and CP for example.

I'm sorry if this is going way too out of theorycrafting and over purpose of this topic but how are other people feeling trispec hemo as in funfactor? When all content of game at this moment are on farm status I've started to consider alot more of how fun the spec is to play with. Still kinda disappointted that 3x/0/3x spec doesn't deliver in PvE and it lacks that something. It has good chances in paper and its more fun to play than most other specs.

 

Drunkmunky

I threw together a 30/0/31 Hemo build on the weekend, fell completely in love with it for pvp/solo play. I will probably go back and redo the talents to a more focused and thought out 31/0/30 but I am loving it so far. I have to agree with above posters though, it's too difficult and unpredictable for pve. No imp S&D, wasted CP's etc.

 

Mooch13

Obviously hemo makes no sense for dagger rogues, but all this talk about serrated blades and the boost to white damage coupled with how the bottom part of the combat tree only really address special attacks has me wondering...should a combat dagger rogue respec to something more like 15/28/18? From a purely raid-damage perspective, by the way. There are a lot of 'wasted' talent points spent in sub to get to SB and most math seems to say GS is not very useful so can this be justified? I'm struggling to get my feet under me when it comes to theorycraft so anyone with some numbers would be a big help.

 

PSGarak

Serrated Blades is good, but it's not Surprise Attacks good, or Combat Potency good. If you're not getting Hemo at the end of it, I can't imagine that the points you dump into subtlety can be worth it. Being able to benefit from Opportunity means less of them are being wasted (10 vs 15) but it's still the same new talents that you have compared to the standard combat build. And the standard daggers combat build is already at a disadvantage. I would recomend throwing it into a spreadsheet just to be sure, but since people have been saying that hemo trispec isn't an upgrade until you factor in the hemo debuff itself I have very low hopes.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Zujamar

Could someone come up with an estimate if there's a phase in gear progression where hemo builds would fall dramatically behind combat ones (i.e. the static damage increase from the debuff is little compared to everyone's personal dps, but the superb scaling hasn't 'kicked in' yet)? I know my gear level is far from optimal, but I'm failing to do the maths to discern exactly how badly it would, or wouldn't, hurt in the not-so-distant future.

 

◊ Hanos

If you are looking at total raid DPS, Hemo adds 360 damage every time you Hemo or every 3.5-4 seconds... that is close to 100 DPS, as long as you aren't concerned with personal DPS, then Kara level gear or high should be fine.

 

Zurgat

If you take into consideration that the average raid member has about ~30% crit chance, then it adds about 468 damage.
It's definitely worth it.

-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.

 

Dontmindme

But don't forget that the bonus damage is still mitigated by armor, so back to about 100 DPS.

 

Ariashley

The loss of hit would be a sad day indeed for any raid spec. Was there a contention that 31/0/30 would be a good raid spec? I've been using 23/0/38 for PvP for the last 2 weeks (first week was horrible since I couldn't remember what any of my buttons did). Burst from Cold Blood and survivability from Cheat Death are big benefits to arena play (I know I slap on 2/5 T5 for arena to get the boost to Eviscerate, which is pretty hot on cloth). Yesterday, my shadow priest partner and I won 7 and lost 3 (2 to the same warrior discipline priest team). I know for sure I'm still not using that build to its best advantage in PvP, since I keep forgetting about Premeditation.... Cheat death won at least 3 of those 7 fights, even if it's still slightly buggy, since it kept me up long enough to finish off an opponent, so I didn't leave my partner 1 v 2.

Tonight - if we get enough people to actually raid - should be a nice test drive for 11/27/23 in a fairly controlled environment. I haven't changed any gear since my last logs of this set of fights (which were since patch 2.3 and when I was 19/42/0). However, our enhancement shaman quit raiding this week, as did one of our resto shaman, so if we don't get any shaman in the melee group - that will make a big mess out of test results. My guess is that one of our 3 remaining resto shaman will find his/her way into the melee group for some proper testing. We are scheduled to murder Hydross, Lurker, Leo, Fathom Lord, and Morogrim tonight. I think we're missing a lot of people, so not sure we actually will...

And yes, the bug still exists on Rank 4 Hemo - that the debuff charges are removed by magical spells without the 36 dmg bonus being applied. I confirmed last night with an in game GM, since I was reporting a bug about being stuck behind the candelabra in the Ruins of Lordaeron after being feared back there by a warlock (who was incidentally also feared and got stuck back there with me, effectively trapped within my killing range).

 

• Arawethion

So, I'm doing a spreadsheet comparison between 19/42 and 11/27/23 (what's the current wisdom on 2/2 Expertise vs. 2/2 Dirty Deeds?). Gear is slightly below full Kara-quality, weapons are Gladiator's Slicer/Latro's.

Now, Hemo comes up about 30 DPS behind with both relevant options checked off. This is how most people seem to be doing the comparison. However, Hemo is significantly ahead (~40 DPS) when I check the "Hemo" debuff on the mob only (this makes sense, as I give about 45 white hits in 30 seconds, enough to consume half of the Hemo charges myself).

Isn't the latter method the more valid comparison? The worst possible case for Hemo is when I'm the only person consuming my own charges. In this case, Hemo comes out ahead even with my weak gear.

So am I missing something here, or is assuming a perpetual Hemo debuff on the target the correct minimum for comparison?

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

songster

It absolutely depends on context. When soloing, you will be the only person consuming charges, and you will not be able to consume all of them. Your own personal DPS (i.e. what you see on WWS) will be best modelled by assuming a perpetual Hemo debuff. Also, since you're the only person in the party, the total DPS will be best modelled by assuming a perpetual Hemo debuff.

In a 5-man group, you and the tank will be consuming charges, and maybe one more melee DPSer. There should be enough charges to make sure the debuff is almost always up. Your own personal DPS will be best modelled by assuming a perpetual Hemo debuff, however the total DPS will be best modelled by assuming all the charges get used (i.e. the checkbox in the Talents sheet).

In a 25-man raid, the charges will be used much faster than you apply them. Your own personal DPS will be best modelled by ignoring Hemo totally (i.e. you assume that all the charges are being used by someone other than you). Your total contribution to raid DPS will of course be best modelled on the assumption that all charges get used.

A 10-man group will fall somewhere between the 5- and 10-man scenarios. All the charges will get used (so you should model total DPS on this assumption). You personally will use some of the charges, but the debuff is unlikely to be up for 100% of your attacks.

You should never tick both options, as you will by double-counting all the charges that you personally use.

 

Drinyth

Also keeping in mind that in the current patch, some of those charges are being consumed by non-physical attacks (according to the 2.3.2 patch notes). And if those charges consumed aren't adding to raid DPS, the larger your group size, the less benefit the raid is going to get overall from the hemo debuff.

 

• Arawethion

So, I understand all this--let me be clear about what I'm asking:

Assume that I care about real damage contribution, in whatever setting I'm in, rather than my own DPS bar (the distinction probably only matters in 25-man raids and/or the presence of multiple Hemo Rogues).

The worst possible performance of the Hemo debuff is the case in which I am the only person using up my own charges. The presence of additional physical attackers can only make the debuff stronger from that point (note that this is true even when multiple Rogues are refreshing Hemo).

Hence, the most conservative estimate of Hemo DPS is found by using only the "Hemo debuff on target" assumption in the spreadsheet. Estimates with neither option checked are quite meaningless.

However, using that assumption, Hemo outperforms Combat at even low levels of gear.

So, assuming the spreadsheet is accurate, how do we avoid the conclusion that Hemo is clearly the optimal spec for raid DPS?

EDIT: this is after the non-physical attack bug is fixed.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Killars

You would do 4/5 Sword Spec and still get 2/2 in both DD and WE.

As for hemo charges, you would mostly use only a few of them in your white damage if any. It might just be due to the current bug that has casters use the charges, but mine get used up nearly instantly in 40man raids. We now have 2 Hemo rogues so it's a bit better, but still the hemo debuff itself is mostly going to be a raid dps boost far more than a personal. Honestly the Hemo debuff is just 1 factor of saying 11/27/23 is better because overall the raid damage has increased from where it was when I was combat.

 

songster

You don't. As far as I'm aware, the first rogue in your 25-man party should always be Hemo. For the second rogue, it's less clear cut because at least a few charges are likely to end up being wasted. For the thids and subsequent rogue, combat is the way to go.

 

Radical

When you plug a 3x/0/3x build into the spreadsheet, the buffed dps is higher than the 11/27/23 or 19/42/0 builds, but for the reasons I mentioned in my post above, its actual dmg does not approach the theoretical dmg output by the spreadsheet.

EDIT: provided you re-gem.

 

• Arawethion

1) Ok. I thought the tone of the discussion was that it was still up for debate.

2) How is it that the optimal spec suddenly reverts back to Combat for the 3rd/4th/etc. Rogue? If 5 Rogues are all whaling away with Hemorrhage, completely saturating the mob with the debuff, then yes, lots of charges are "wasted." However, they're still doing no worse than the minimum case I outlined above, where every attack from every Rogue benefits from the debuff. And according to the spreadsheet, that's still more DPS than a Combat Rogue.

EDIT: Never mind, I get it. With 2 Rogues doing it, there's enough Hemorrhage going around that further Combat Rogues get large benefit from the debuff, even when they're not applying it themselves, so there's no point having them switch.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.