Sarlunas

About the SF modeling in the DPS sheet, it is currently completely bugged. It is not a model of some kind of ideal situation but simply wrong. It seems to shorten the cycles but retain the previous number of instants, thus vastly inflating the hemo dps. If you look at the breakdown of DPS sources SF increases hemo dps by about 175 and finisher dps by about 60, I would expect the actual gain from SF to be a lot closer to 60 dps than 235. Nothing to see here, move along.

 

Primalr

...And you have some people in the raid with +3% crit dmg meta gem.
...And you have some classes in the raid with extra big crits-bonuses aswell.

 

Oki

After some raiding i estimated (based on wws logs) i use 15-25% of hermo charges

Also 5/5 Swords spec / 1/2 expertise gives better results on the spreadsheet (2dps or something) than 4/5 SS 2/2 Exp, i wonder why that is


So is generally agreed that overall 25-man raid dps will go up with a 11/27/23 spec, right?

 

aleyro

This thread rocks, but maybe its time to move some of this discussion into the roguecraft thread? I think the answer to the question "what is the combat vs. hemo point of inflection" turned out to be "patch 2.3".

 

• Arawethion

Yeah, that's what confused me, coming into the thread late.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Vestalina

I don't know if this was mentioned or not but:

If you are going SF/HEMO you need to use 2 fist weapons.

This build's effectiveness is directly correlated with how much crit you have.... 5% more crit with fist spec should boost the viability of SF/HEMO greatly. You really shouldn't be using swords or maces with SF/HEMO build IMO.

 

Wodahs

Was about to say that getting a weapon spec, and seal fate, and hemo would be quite a feat, till I saw the 'troll alert' sig.

 

Vestalina

Almost had you.

But yeah, on a serious note. I don't see SF/HEMO being viable whatsoever unless you have the right amount of crit.

Maybe 30/31/0? Still iffy. This build will never be as good as the cookie cutter builds.... maybe the next level cap will change that.

 

Ozzmar

That ventures pretty close to a dagger spec I've really enjoyed fiddling around with:

(30/26/5)
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I've always hated how thin Combat Daggers has to spread its points, and how slowly it generates combo points. This spec got a little more of the "fun" from Assassination that Mutilate enjoys (SF, QR, RS, etc) and still gets a lot of the key DPS talents from Combat.

In practice, I couldn't quite catch the Combat Dagger or full Mutilate rogues on the damage meter, but I think there's some definite potential in this spec with a high enough crit rating (which I have yet to see).

 

rooppa

I am curious as to find out if there are any mods in relation to Hemo. I have posted in this thread but there seems to be no response in connection to my wishful dreams of having a Hemo mod.

Therefore am asking the question in this thread also, does anyone know of any Hemo monitoring mods out there?

 

◊ Hanos

My eyes have served as a fine mod so far, but I guess you could use Debuff Filter... even if it is a resource hog. I haven't used it since back in the Naxx days but it might still work. Really you just have to watch for the Hemo Icon on the mob debuffs.

 

Darlal

elk's buff bars include hemo and work well for this. I have 6 different buff/debuff groups:
debuffs I apply: hemo/rupture/cs/ks/garotte/kick_silence
buffs I watch: snd/trinkets/haste pots/heroism
target's buffs/debuffs - those I apply
my buffs - buffs I watch
my debuffs
my poisons.
This mod is great because it lets me format/position each group wherever I like.

 

Wodahs

I ran a ZA group last night, with a hemo spec, and must admit I was quite impressed. The overall run dps was about on par with my last run, and the utility of hemo has its advantages. I have best in slot gear in almost every slot( at least I think its best in slot), and I am gemmed for a lot of hit, which I do not think I will change, just due to cost factors. I have 338 hit unbuffed, which was hot in my combat sword build, but may be a bit more hit than I need with hemo. I plan on trying it tonight on our najentus-ros clear, and see how well it works.

In regards to mods, I use 'demon' an ace2 mod that can be found at files.wowace.com, to show the presence of hemo. It doesnt show charges, just if its up, or not, and thats enough for me.

 

PSGarak

I don't think there are any raid-centric hemo-specific mods yet, because until now hemo wasn't a widely-used raid spec so there wasn't much incentive to create one. Once it becomes more mainstream you'll start seeing more specific debuff monitors. The nature of the hemo debuff means that it might be useful to have a propriatary display method, but in the meantime an ordinary debuff tracker should serve well enough. If DoTimer can track it, the mod as a whole comes highly recomended.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Punkrocker

Quartz works well for me.

 

aleyro

I don't understand why you would want a hemo mod... Basically, whether its up or not, you should be spamming hemo if your hemo build. what will a mod tell you on top of that?

 

Ozzmar

If you read the link he posted, he explains that.

 

Cyn

I Use the ACE mod called ClassTimers, this shows a set of timer bars for whatever buffs/debuffs you specify for yourself and your target. You can add Hemorrhage as a debuff on your target.

It will then show a timer bar for how long until the hemo debuff expires, and the Text on the timer bar will say 'Hemorrhage (x)'

 

aleyro

Honestly, i've read the post, and I still don't understand the need for such a mod. I don't understand how a rogue could be applying the hemo debuff "too fast"- even if there are 9 charges available, if the rogue has 35 energy, he should hit hemo- the instant damage of the hemo strike far outweighs the benefit of letting a few more charges of +36 damage be consumed. As for applying the hemo debuff "too slow"- again, the rogue should simply be applying hemo every chance he gets- regardless of whether there are 9 charges, 1 charge, or zero charges.

Further, as for using such a mod as a starting point to determine the overall contribution of hemo to raid wide DPS: again, the overall contribution is the same, regardless of how many times the rogue refreshes the debuff. The number of physical attacks is constant, whether the debuff is there or not.

For arguments sake, lets say there are going to be exaclty 1000 physical attacks from other raid members over a given time span.

Lets say the rogue applies hemo before the first attack, then waits until 9 charges have been spent, then refreshes hemo at the very last second. all told, 1000 attacks will recieve +36 damage, for a grand total of 36k damage added to the raid.

Now, lets say that same rogue refreshed hemo before each and every attack- once again, 1000 attacks will recieve +36 damage, delivering the exact same raid wide benefit (of course, in the second scenario, the rogues individual contribution will be 10x what it was in the first scenario, because he will have done 10x more hemo attacks).

A hemo rogue doesn't need to concern themselves with how many charges are being "consumed" or "wasted", she simply needs to maximize her debuff uptime, by any means necessary. Every raiding rogue has always kept a close watch on their buff/debuff timers, and did everything possible to maximize their uptime- hemo fits into that same category, just like SnD, Rupture, Deadly Poison, Find Weakness, etc.

Any of the standard buff tracking mods that have served us well for months work perfectly fine for tracking hemo, as well.

 

Wodahs

A hemo mod doesnt do anything in a 25 man, except let you know hemo landed. I did a bt run, entry through reliquary and the hemo debuff disappears in like 1/4 a second. Its almost not even on, it goes off so fast.
I still need to find a rotation that works, but dmg was good, very good. I had a 100k dmg lead over 2nd in dmg on gurtogg, before getting fel rage and killing Gurtogg. I did not get marked for death on Gurtogg, and I did kick duty for low dps on reliquary, but I was still able to pump out some good dmg.
Wow Web Stats

 

Dontmindme

Yeah, but that might change somewhat when Blizzard fixes the debuff. It will be interesting to see how long the debuff actually stays when it isn't eaten up by spells and other effects.

 

Axiss_Lothar

Xperl unit frames can be set to show your debuffs larger than others above or below the target frame. It also shows time to expire and charges. I use that primarily to know when my charges are consumed. I also use bongos bars which highlight active buffs/debuffs in conjuction with omniCC for cooldown timers. The highlight fades when the charges are consumed. So i have 2 pieces of feedback on when the most raid damage optimal time is to apply hemo. That's about as good is possible I think.

The only times I don't let my hemo charges be fully consumed in a raid are 1) the target is going to die soon and i have energy to spend before it dies or 2) my energy is about to tick over 100 if i don't use some. As long as you're not wasting energy, don't spam hemo.

 

rooppa

It seems that people are more concentrating on the timer of the debuff it's self other than my true intension. Wasted charges; as it stands right now, there are no mods which are used to detect how many Hemo charge’s where wasted. If there were, then raids would be able to assess how much damage extra the Hemo rogue was bringing to the raid. Also from a modelling PoV, everyone has assumed that every single Hemo charge is going to be used 100% of the time. From my own experience this is not the case. Opening up on a mob for example, rogues generally want to get S&D and Rupture ticking ASAP; therefore on a normal mob they will Spam Hemo after the opener to get these 2 running ASAP. Now this altar’s the normal time that Hemo is applied from 3-4 seconds to the GCD of 1 second. (As long as the rogue had a period of time that they where away from the mob they where attacking and regenerated energy, which is quite common in TBC fights) Now think of every single time that you open up on a mob on a run starting from 60-70 energy by switching targets and regenerating energy as you move. If mere 2 charges are wasted per mob that you open up on, this may add upto thousands of damage over a typical run lost in these lost charges. As we are trying to make a direct comparison in terms of damage for this build Vs other builds. Would it therefore not make sense to try and accurately model what Hemo brings to a raid. Every real log I have seen at this point in time is basing there figures on how many Hemo hits where applied and then working out there “extra damage” from this figure, but how much damage was lost due to wasted charges?

 

rooppa

I don’t agree at all, if a rogue Spam’s their button like a crazed maniac they are loosing the benefit of Hemo.

The whole perk of Hemo is that it increase's raid damage. SS Vs Hemo, SS wins in a direct comparison for the instant damage per application, it is the debuff of Hemo that make's it comparable. The fact that each application increase’s each applications damage caused by using up the charges and generating an extra minimum of 360 damage. Now in your way of thinking, not using this benefit of the debuff by wasting charge's over and over again. You are loosing DPS from the debuff. If you and your raid are not getting the fully benefit of the Hemo charge's, what is the point of you specking Hemo?

/edit.

What exactly in terms of DPS does a rogue loose if they wait till the charges are used? my response would be nothing.

 

koaschten

Up to the point where you waste Energy because you waited too long, a delayed style in a sustained combat situation will not waste dps. This fact stays true unless rogue dps is not limited by energy regeneration anymore.

edit: And indeed in theory spamming hemo mindlessly is worse than spamming sinister strike due to the charges on hemo you wasted. We will have to wait for the fix on hemo though.