Mideci

Go ahead and spam hemo. Otherwise, suggest an actual alternative.

What? You are going to alternate and use the higher-energy required to SS? Going to spend the talents in improved SS instead of elsewhere?

To maximize rogue damage, you have to spam. You want things ticking as soon as possible. You don't want to conserve energy to load up the bar and then spam it down in some quixotic effort to ensure your hemo charges are all used up. Nor, I suspect, can you even do that. Depending on your lag and your guildmates' lag, it might not even be possible for your client to represent in real time who is and is not eating hemo charges.

We are currently running with 2-3 hemo rogues in our raids. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe our overall rogue dps is within the margin of error of being the same as before (consistent with the "it's about 2% less personal damage" theorycrafting). The raid dps is doubtless higher as we have 2 prot warriors, a feral druid, 2 hunters, a dps warrior and an enhance shaman in every raid. Apparently, hemo was bugged and some charges were misappropriated before. That's also apparently fixed.

There is reasonable theorycrafting and min-maxing and then there is worrying about solving problems that don't exist. Unused hemo charges and trying to somehow squeeze them out by applying hemo "later" falls into the latter category.

 

koaschten

1. The fix is scheduled for 2.3.2, its not live yet.
2. We'll see how the benefit of Hemo scales in raid environments accounting for the number of rogues specced hemo. Once its fixed to not be consumed by Magical and other non-physical attacks.

@Mideci: Just for you again, you do not waste energy you do not loose dps by delaying specials.

 

rooppa

I really don’t understand why rogues/raid leaders/guilds in general are running raids with more than one Hemo rogues. It has been said quite a few times before in this very thread that energy ticks are synced. At best, you are getting a slight difference in Hemo application timing due to lag, but in generally running with 2 or 3 rogues the amount of charges that would be wasted on each of the rogues Hemo applications would be extremely high. This will be even more prominent when they bug is fixed and spells do not consume the charges also. So therefore why do it? It has been said that sword spec + Hemo spec is behind combat swords in personal DPS. The only thing that makes the whole spec interesting is the buff in damage the raid will receive from the Hemo charges. This should offset any loss in personal DPS the rogue will experience. BUT, if each of the rogue is receiving less than 100% of the benefit of there charges then the difference is not being offset. The raid would benefit more if 2 out of the 3 rogues went back to a typical combat sword build and only leaving 1 rogue as Hemo, for the simple reason that there would be a far less charges being wasted on the application of Hemo.

Think about a warlock for a second, it is strongly recommended that they renew their dots ASAP they have run out and not before. Why? Because if not they are loosing DPS on there dots by not receiving the full amount of damage ticks. The lose of damage that they loose by constantly renewing there dot's without allowing it to run it's full course can amount to a very large amount of lost damage on a run.

How is this different to a rogue's Hemo? They apply the charge; they need to get the full 10 charges out of that Hemo application in order to get the full benefit. If they are loosing charges due to another rogue renewing Hemo before those charges are used up or renewing it themselves without getting all 10 charges used up (very likely in running more than 1 Hemo rogue that at least a proportion of the charges will be wasted) then they are loosing DPS. If they are loosing a greater amount of DPS as a Hemo rogue Vs if they specked back to a typical combat swords rogue, Then why the hell use more than 1 Hemo rogue in a raid?

Until someone can come up with 100% proof that running with more than 1 Hemo rogue in a raid is more effective than running with just the 1 Hemo rogue. Then I am certain that the answer is simple, wasted charges through running more than 1 Hemo rogue = wasted dps.

 

Lieska

I doubt that any guild would choose to have more than at most one Hemo rogue in a raid from a minmaxing point of view but some guilds are simply more casual and flexible about allowed specs.

 

Azaziel

Well hemo gives around 100 dps if all charges is used, the diffrence between hemo and combat is way less than 100 dps for all gear setups I have seen. Say that with a normal situation with one hemo rogue you use up 90% of the charges giving an extra 90 dps to the raid. Bring in another hemo rogue and maybe 70% of the total charges get used up. thats another 140 dps to the raid and the second rogue brought in their personal dps + 50 dps from hemo extra over the first one. If diffrence in specs between combat and hemo for rogue2 was less than 50 dps then he would still benefit from being hemo. All these numbers is just rough guesses though and I would think the exact numbers differs quite a bit between diffrent setups and people.

 

rooppa

I personally think that the amount of charge's that would be wasted by bringing 2 Hemo rogues would mean that the overall amount of charges wasted would be far greater than 30% from both. I think it will be closer to 40% or even 50% due to energy Syncs and also engaging mob’s at “roughly” the same time (something as simple as moving from one mob to the next on trash mobs after each one dies) But without any means to "track" the amount of wasted charges my thoughts can not be proven.

 

Killars

I also use x-perl big debuffs. This works well for personal hemo debuffs, but is not very helpful for showing the other rogue's debuffs which I think is what people really want. Regardless it is helpful.

To respond to the people who seem to think if you don't spam you lose dps, that is entirely false. If your not going over 100 energy your still using your energy and still doing the same amount of DPS. If you are good enough to wait for hemo debuffs to fall off (if you even have to wait) you should indeed wait. I personally have 2 hemo rogues in my raid and never get a chance to refresh my own debuff.

As far as syncronized hemos, that is a great theory, but again false. I know for a fact in my raids me and the other rogue don't have identical cycles and we definitely don't use hemo everytime at the same time. Sure there are going to be times we might put it up at the same time and effectively waste a lot of charges, but with 2-3 hunters, 3 rogues, 4 warriors, 1 feral druid, and an enhancement shaman those charges are being used up pretty god damn fast. The only way most charges can possibly be wasted is if we have them up at the same exact time. Two rogues is optimal IMO and I doubt otherwise. As I said most charges, as in some will obviously be wasted, but not most of them.

 

rooppa

Again though, is this not the charge's being used up with spell's as apposed to melee DPS using up the charges?

Once the fix is in place, and also "if" there was a mod that tracked wasted Hemo charges that you applied, I think that the amount wasted may become more prominent and also measurable.

If I am proven wrong than I shall rather graciously see the errors of my ways and concede that I was wrong in what I have stated. But from what a lot of people are stating that it "feel's" or "appears" that all of the charges are being used up and that there is no overlap of Hemo charge's being applied. This is all based on looking debuff bar of some sort, there is nothing out there that will track the lost charges (or at least no-one has provided a link to anything that could do this). That is the same counter argument that I am coming up with; unfortunately there is no proof either way at this point in time to say who is correct.

 

aleyro

Wow, I am really not getting this... either a.) I'm misunderstanding something fundamental about hemo, or b.) we're taking up a page of this thread with something really inconsequential.

how exactly are we *wasting* charges? please demonstrate this using the following scenario:

In Raid 1, Rogue A waits until the very last charge of hemo is about to be consumed, and then re-applies the hemo debuff. For arguments sake, Rogue A maintains 100% debuff uptime. Ten other physical damage dealers in the raid produce a total of 10,000 physical attacks. Every physical attack consumes a single buff of hemo, and produces a total of 360,000 additional damage.

In Raid 2, Rogue B applies the hemo debuff as soon as his energy allows, regardless of how many charges were remaining. For arguments sake, Rogue B maintains 100% debuff uptime. Ten other physical damage dealers in the raid produce a total of 10,000 physical attacks. Every physical attack consumes a single buff of hemo, and produces a total of 360,000 additional damage.

Rogue A and Rogue B have both delivered the exact same raid-wide benefit, because in both cases, the same number of physical attacks consumed the same number of hemo charges.

The main determinant of raid-wide benefit isn’t the number of charges consumed per application, its the total debuff uptime achieved. As long as both rogues strive for 100% uptime, they will both deliver the same benefit to the raid as a whole. Rogue B, however, will have landed more hemo attacks, and will thus have contributed more individual damage.



What benefit is there to being Rogue A?

 

dinesh

Disclaimer: I have never specced hemo, and don't really understand its cycles or attacks intuitively.

As far as I can tell, the issue is that Rogue A is a strawman - no one is really advocating a rogue who sits there and does nothing except occasionally apply hemo when the stack depletes.

Rogue C applies Hemo only when necessary to maintain the hemo uptime, and weaves in other (higher DPS) non-hemo attacks [SS?] in the interim.

Right now with the buggy hemo behavior there isn't really time for any other attacks, so Rogue A, B, and C are all doing the same thing - spamming hemo. But when that is fixed, perhaps Hemo will stay up longer, and a Hemo rogue will have alternative choices to make while waiting for the hemo stack to deplete. In that case, using the attack[s] which generate the highest DPS while not putting you in an energy hole will be tantamount to maximizing your raid DPS.

Perhaps you are saying Hemo is still that attack, and no other attack will do more DPS. I don't know enough to argue.

 

Ashere

As hemo is now, bug or no bug, the charges will be used up in seconds. Even in a 10-men raid, the charges will all be used before you have the energy to reapply another. So if there's only 1 hemo-rogue, then there's no problem here.

In a 25 men raid, the charges should normally be used up within a second and a half if there wasn't this bug. Right now the bug is there, so they're gone in half a second. But an uptime of a second and a half makes it possible to bring two hemo-rogues to a raid, but they will need to sync their attacks to get the best out of it: i.e. rogue B only applies hemo when rogue A's hemodebuff expired.

Bring a hemo rogue C, and hemo aplications will overlap, which means loss of DPS.

So ideally, bring 1 hemo rogue. If they can work together well, bring another, otherwise, any other rogues would preferable be non-hemo.

 

Dontmindme

Well, once you have specced Hemo, then Hemo is the best combo-point building instant dps-wise. Hemo is to the Hemo build as Sinister Strike is to Combat Swords. With Hemo, you are running a cycle just like with Combat Swords. All people are saying is that it is better not to overly spam Hemo where you pop 2 Hemos so close together that all the charges aren't used up.

Delaying the Hemo attacks a little bit, isn't going to lose you any DPS. It's just like delaying your Sinister Strike to keep enough energy to kick in cases where Rogues are asked to interrupt.

 

aleyro

there are no higher dps, non hemo attacks to weave in, from a DPE standpoint, assuming the gear/weapons used in hemo builds.
yes, thats basically what i'm saying. Technically, there are other things that rogues are doing besides spamming hemo- theres SnD and rupture to keep up, theres movement, vanishies, kicks, etc...but as far as damage dealing attacks, theres no such thing as too much hemo.

 

◊ Hanos

As long as you don't let your energy tick with more then 80 energy, and as long as you end the fight with less then 35 energy your DPS doesn't suffer. I personally like to try to keep my energy just below 100 while doing trash so that I can drop 3 quick Hemos when the mob hits 34%, I also tend to let my energy tick up on bosses as they approach 35%... does it make a big difference... probably not, but whatever I can do to improve my DPS I do. The general feeling is that Hemo Spec'ed you are energy starved more often then not, so you aren't going to be Hemo'ing more then every 3-4 seconds during the fight unless you had to run out, and you really don't want to hit it 3 times on the GCD when you run in, unless you like pulling aggro and dying. Even with it functioning properly I don't see more then a couple charges ever going unused with only 1 Hemo Rogue.

 

Sarlunas

You're missing the fact that in a 25-man raid you will be hard pressed to reach 25% hemo uptime even without the bug, you won't see 100% even with 4 hemo rogues. In short, your posts and the responses to it are a complete waste of space.

 

Oscarvil

There were arguments for and against hemo uptime earlier in the thread (around post 1045 onwards). I suggest you all read them if you want to add anything useful to this thread which hasn't already been said.

 

rooppa

@ Aleyro

Two identical rogues, both same build, both same buffs, the run is on Gruul, where the rogue is constantly thrown away and therefore is placed back onto 100 energy at regular intervals on the fight. Both use the same damage rotation and therefore all other damage is identical apart from the damage incoming from the Hemo charges used.

Rogue A use's 100 Hemo hits in a fight, thus having 1000 charges applied. He waits till each of the charges are used before he reapplies Hemo, he therefore get's the full benefit and gets the full amount of damage and does not waste a single charge.

Rogue B is a crazy key spammer, he Use's Hemo 100 times in a fight, but instead of waiting he choose's to bash's his Hemo button at every opportunity he can. This over the identical run means that he overwrites a mere 50 of the 1000 charges he should have used, because when he re-engages Gruul he spams Hemo like there is no tomorrow due to not having to fear agro.

Rouge A generated a mimimum of (1000* 36 =) 36,000 in extra damage from the Hemo debuff
Rogue B generated a minimum of (950*36 =) 34,200 in extra damage from the Hemo debuff

The difference between Rogue A and Rouge B is 1,800 damage, and this is only an example where the Rogue B only wastes 0.5% of their charges, and none of those charges being a crit. The chance's are that spaming on the GCD on each and every possible opertunity would infact waste alot more than 0.5%. Now do you see how you would loose DPS?

 

Kirion

Last few posts confuses me. From my point of view, the only thing that matters is hemo debuff uptime. Now you need to think if maximum debuff uptime in given raid can be achieved with wasting charges.

42.

 

sltyntzhrt

I use a . It has no internal cooldown and have sceenshots of 3 procs in a row.

http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?i...sunkinght0.jpg

Once it procs once, no matter how synchronized energy ticks become, I don't become worried about over-riding others' hemo charges.

 

Mideci

Yes you do.

Only one of your ruptures can be ticking at one time on a mob. Sitting around waiting for it to fall off while attempting -- foolishly -- to min/max your hemo charges would cost you dps.

And quite frankly, that's hardly the best example. The best example is... hemo.

You can either spam it whenever you have energy -- which is at a remarkably steady clip given you don't generally have hemo and combat potency -- or you can wait for it.. wait for it... ok, hit it because your hemo charges are used up and you're pretty sure... uh oh, hit it again because you are now at max energy and gonna lose energy regen. Uh oh, now you didn't use up your charges.

Again, I realize this confuses people, but what you see on your screen and what the server sees and what another client sees are not the same thing. There is way too much lag overall and inter-client lag in particular for that to be true. Even if you don't think all the hemo charges are used up, they probably are. And they will generally certainly be so used before you hit your hemo button again. And even if they weren't, your brilliant energy storrage plan is not only delaying your next 5cp finishing move -- another reason why delaying specials costs you dps* -- it's also making it more likely you'll eat hemo charges by spamming the move back to back to prevent energy overrun. Or losing energy regen.

* Consider the very real case where the non-spammer has 4cp and ruptures at 5cp. Delaying pressing hemo for the 5th cp delays the restart of rupture ticking. That delays the start of the next rupture. The time rupture is not ticking is lost dps. The only way this isn't true is if there is some other energy dump that has equivalent damage per energy. As far as I know, there isn't.

Feel free to blow holes in this, but bear in mind that cycles are built on using energy as it becomes available in order to maximize uptime of slice as well as rupture. Delaying finishing moves is a necessary consequence of delaying the move that builds combo points. Even if the delay is nothing more than the additional GCDs -- and as a pratical matter due to imperfect player ability to interpret how long to delay the spam it will be worse -- it's there. You don't ever get back the time your finishers are not ticking. They are or are not ticking.

Furthermore, spamming hemo makes it more like that the debuff will be up for others to consume. Waiting for it to fall off and then hitting it makes for countless more attacks over the course of the fight where the debuff will not be up until you or someone else reapplies it. If it's true that charges are "wasted" from spamming, attempting to not spam is guaranteed that numerous physical attacks will do 36 less damage than if the debuff was up when they landed. Again, there is lost dps from not spamming.

Spamming at worst wastes charges that ultimately will be wasted anyway (physical attacks either land fast enough to eat up all the charges before there is enough energy or eventually you have to weave in non-hemo attacks that are slower to generate CPs on an energy basis or you have to burn energy -- and you require tremendous precision in doing this). Not spamming ensures attacks land without the debuff.

 

koaschten

Maximum debuff uptime can't be reached unless you show me a 25 man raid that doesn't manage 10 physical hits every 3.5 seconds (35 energy per hemo, 20 energy every 2 seconds averaged) per hemo rogue in the raid.

The point about maximizing hemo efficiency is to have no charges overwritten if possible, as lost charges are a loss in dps. It was mentioned that delaying specials, unless you tick over 100 energy, is no loss of personal dps. The conclusion from that is, delay hemo if not all charges are used and you are not at 80+ energy. It will be a dps gain for the raid and no loss for your personal dps.

 

Mideci

With regard to your first point, 2 hunters, 2 warriors, 2 rogues, 2 pets has got to be some kind of reasonable baseline. I'm not sure how they could reliably manage less than 20.*

Lost charges are not a loss in dps unless the charges could otherwise be consumed without causing a second order effect. In this case, the second-order effect is not having hemo up due to waiting for it to drop off before reapplying. Attacks will land in the meantime. The third order effect would be your slice or rupture losing a tick while you are waiting to reapply hemo for a combo pt to get the correct amount of cp into your finisher. The fourth order effect is that if the charges are not being used up, delaying your hemo will only buy you some time before you must hemo again and overwrite unused charges. Or you must use a different special which you are not likely to be "talented" for (unimproved SS) or you must spend talent points you could spend elsewhere to improve said special (improved SS) or you must use a lousy special (shiv) to ultimately push out your hemo reliably wihthout overwriting it.

The conclusion from this is don't delay hemo. It doesn't buy you anything.

* Our raid group has 2 hunters, 3 warriors (one spec-ed dps), 2-3 rogues, a feral druid and an enhance shaman. Two of the rogues are sword spec and windfury is up nearly all the time. That's 9-10 people + 2 pets. Someone more expert can tell you how many physical attacks that averages in 3.5 secs.

 

Zurgat

As a guesstimate i'd say.
MS warrior 2 attacks per 2.6 seconds + 25% chance on WF. ~ about 1 attack per second.
Feral druid has a 2 sec attack speed iirc, and will do a "backstab" every 60 energy ( 6 seconds )
Rogue ~1 attack per second.
Hunter pet ~1 attack per second
BM Hunter ~1 shot per second
Enhance shaman ~1 per second, so about the same presuming he has flurry active. (2.6 sec weapons become 2 sec)

So with 4+3+3+2 = 12 targets each attacking at about 1 attack per second :
Resulting in about 10-12 attacks per second as a "very" rough guesstimate, those hemo charges should be gone in less than a second.
With our regular raid balance we have a similar setup. My hemo charges don't last a second either.

-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.

 

koaschten

(moved edit to new post for readability)

Lets assume a 11/28/22 spec.
Aldriana's Rogue Gear Spreadsheet tells me that the optimal cycle for my gear (if i logged out in pve gear just click on my profile) will be 5s4.8r.

For the sake of the discussion, lets say we run a 5s5r cycle.
CP required: 10, due to Ruthlessness, lets assume we get 1 free CP per cycle.
Finishers will be free as rupture and snd are 25 energy, which is returned 100% by Relentless Strikes.

To sustain the cycle we will need the energy for 9 Hemo, which is 315 energy which we can gain in 31.5 seconds if we only look at the energy requirement.

Slice'n'Dice time with 3/3 Improved SnD is 30.45 seconds. Rupture will tick 16 seconds at 5cp.
You can't get higher Rupture uptime.
And you will even see a drop in SnD uptime if you don't get a Ruthlessness proc in a cycle.

You CAN'T clip Rupture and will only loose dps by it if it doesn't finish ticking and you have more energy left at the end of the fight than you would have needed to dump the last CP in eviscerate or another hemo.

Feel free to drill a hole in this Mideci.


edit: Zurgat please lets be careful about stating "I see my hemo drop within 1 second" until the fix is implementing that non-physical attacks and spells consume charges. I know, its a bit nit-picking, but well...

 

songster

Mideci, are you reading what people are writing, or just what you want to see? Nobody is talking about waiting for a full energy bar - they're talking about waiting 1 or 2 seconds.

Say you have enough energy to hit Hemo twice on successive GCDs. That is a spacing of 1 second. Now say it takes 1.6 seconds to use all the Hemo charges. After you hit the first Hemo, what do you do? Do you spam it again as soon as the GCD wears off (and thus waste almost half the charges), or do you wait 0.6 seconds and hit it once all the charges are used? You lose nothing by doing the latter - you're still going to be waiting for your next energy tick before you can hit it again, or use a finisher. But you do avoid wasting Hemo charges.

It's not about waiting for extra energy ticks, it's about choosing when within the two second tick window to hit your Hemo button. The answer is obviously to time your Hemo to waste as few charges as possible (or in your language, to maximise uptime - the two are equivalent). This becomes especially important if you have >1 Hemo rogue.

In response to the OP - ClassTimers works very nicely. It will monitor the Hemo buff and give you a note of the remaining duration and the remaining number of charges.