Zurgat

With 2 hemo rogues in a karazhan group i've seen clipping at 4-5 charges left.
Well even if it gets eaten by magic effects now. After the patch it still shouldn't be more than a second uptime in a 25 man raid with sufficient melee.
So with 2 rogues 1 could hold out a second longer than the other to ensure maximum hemo uptime.

As it is currently, with magic effects eating the charge, does the buff get ignored or does it actually add +36 damage to that spell?
Would be weird ofcourse, but i'm curious whether the hemo buff at least benefits the raid somehow.

-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.

 

koaschten

Only consumed. Has been verified somewhere here on the board. (but i am too lazy to search for it )

 

anastril

This is not in the official patchnotes, but a blue in the German boards posted this 4 hours ago:

- Hemo-Damage reduced from 125% to 110%
- Increased the effect of the hemo-debuff
- lolstep now gives 1 CP

Source: WoW-Europe.com Foren -> 2.3.2 PTR Patch Notes

I don't have a toon on the PTR so I can't check the actual values for the new debuff, if anyone could be so kind and take a look it would be very appreciated.

 

rooppa

The charges do not increase spell damage as far as am aware. I believe this was tested and hence why people noticed the bug in the 1st place. As for being able to "stagger" 2 rogues and their Hemo application, That would need some dam nice co-ordination between the rogues all the time 100% concentration on there none syncing the whole run. It is just not going to happen, we are only but human after all. Granted that there would be less wasted due to staggering of the Hemo charges, but still I think that there would still be an amount over a run that would be wasted. Fair enough this amount of wasted charges may not be a significant amount of damage, it may only amount for 100k on a 4-hour run. But it still means that there are 100k in lost DPS from the wasted charges. That is all I wanted to point out, If there are ANY wasted charges at all then the benefit of the 2nd or even 3rd being a Hemo rogue Vs combat swords is lower. If the benefit becomes so low due to Hemo syncing that the amount of wasted charge’s is around 50% for each rogue, then they would clearly be better off respecting and going back to the traditional combat sword spec.

Before I respected to Hemo swords, I had already asked the raiding rogues in the guild am in atm about their intensions about the spec. Basically ensuring that there was not going to be multiple Hemo sword rogues going on the same raids. The reason being is that; if you can avoid it, why waste any charges at all? Personal DPS for combat swords Vs Hemo swords is quite tight, 2% I believe has been quoted as a good figure of the difference. Now if you are still gaining a greater than 2% of you’re DPS in an amount of damage added by your Hemo debuff then great. Stay that spec, wasted charges are not impacting your raid’s DPS and you are fine. If however, your wasted charges mean’s that you are not getting the equivalent of 2% of your DPS from your Hemo charges, then you and your raid are loosing DPS. This loss in DPS can be avoided by not taking as many Hemo rogues or by attempting not to sync Hemo hits. The difference is small I know, but it is an amount of loss of DPS that can be looked at and avoided by the number of Hemo rogues on a raid.

I know it is just a “feeling” and that is looked down upon, but I can clearly see that the amount of charges being used up by spell’s at the moment is probably a lot greater than people realise. If you think of the number of locks, mage’s, moonkins, shadow priests etc and their spell’s hitting, as well as their dots. I would say that it has to be at least on par with melee/hunters using the charges from Hemo at the moment. If Hemo charges are disappearing for 1 Hemo rogue within 1 second NOW, then it is reasonable to assume that with none of those charges being used up by spells that the time it will last will go up, Am going to say that it might last upto 1.5 seconds depending on the raid set-up. That is a mere 0.15 seconds per hit on average is not a Hugh amount of time between hits when you think about swing timers, instants, incoming shots etc. Everyone is governed by GCD’s so to me it sounds about right for quite a few raids and the amount of physical damage class’s they take.

I am to busy at work right now to sit and go through a random WWS file to see the average time per application of a physical hit on a mob, But I would guess it would not be that far from an average of 0.15 seconds per hit. And if that is the case, then once the fix is in place, I would be very curious to see if the amount of wasted charges through running more than 1 Hemo rogue will become a lot more obvious.

Again though, with no way to track wasted charges, there is no proof to what I am stating. Unless someone would like to put a massive sock in my mouth and show me proof by introducing a mod that tracked wasted Hemo charges and that running with more than 1 Hemo rogue is not wasting as many charges as I suspect it will? There is a cookie in it for you if you can

 

rooppa

It was nice while it lasted, that loss in 15% weapons damage will surly hurt the gap between combat swords Vs Hemo swords by quite a bit. But I also take it that the "increased the effect of the Hemo-debuff" may compensate for this loss. In which case, the argument that I have been banging on about in my last few posts about NOT wasting charges may become even more important.

 

• Arawethion

I imagine their intention to made at least one Hemo Rogue ideal for raid DPS, but somewhat reduce the huge advantage the spec currently has across all situations.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

songster

What I've never understood is why Hemorrhage needs to be a new instant. Why can't it just be "Your Sinister Strikes cause the target to hemorrhage, increasing physical attacks against the target by..."

The trouble is the schizophrenic nature of the talent. On the one hand, it's a PvP talent - a new instant with lower energy cost which gives you faster combat point generation. On the other, it's a raiding talent - a debuff that's pretty much useless solo, kinda meh in 5-man, and shines in 10-man and up.

 

koaschten

songster, i guess i would take two of "sinister strike for 35 energy with boss debuff". Sorry, but that would be too good.

 

• Arawethion

? This is what Hemo is now. Only difference is the constant damage term that SS adds.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Killars

Can we have a direct translation from the German post. Just the Rogue part please. The whole thing if someone could word for word, not just the summary. Is that cheat death as the first change? I can't tell...

 

anastril

The first two parts are the same as in the current patchnotes on wow.com (WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes), the other two are the parts I've posted up there

- Cheat Death: When multiple attacks land simultaenously, all those resolved after the attack which triggered Cheat Death will now have their damage reduced by 90% as intended. However, the combat log will still report them doing full damage.
- Hemorrhage: Rank 4 of this ability no longer has its charges consumed by non-physical attacks and spells.
- Hemo-Damage reduced from 125% to 110%
- Increased the effect of the hemo-debuff
- lolstep now gives 1 CP

edit
If you want a verbatim translation of the hemo-part though, here you go:
"'Hemorrhage'-weapon damage reduced from 125% to 110%, the effect of the resulting debuff got increased though."

edit²
Some numbers, based on my equipment (t4/kara mostly, taken from a 1087dps Void-Reaver-kill):
Average Hemo: 640
Average Hemo-Crit: 1354

New values would be:
Average Hemo: ~563 (~77 diff)
Average Hemo-Crit: ~1192 (~162 diff)

Assuming 30% crit, the average difference would be ~103, so every stack would have to be buffed to 47 +dmg at least to make it worth for me. Generally speaking it sucks, we get a %-based (and thus scaling) nerf and a flat (and thus not scaling) buff, so the better your equipment is, the bigger the nerf will hit you.

 

Ozzmar

Well here's what an online translator says:

I have no idea what Jump of the Shovel is, but I'm interested to find out!

I'm guessing Blood Slump would be Hemo, and it appears to line up with what was posted above.

EDIT: Ah, posted late. Sorry!

 

Shinja

I've check on EU-PTR, the Hemo is still with 125%, and no CP with Shadowstep (I've checked the talent tree), we must wait for an update to see the debuff part I guess.

"Killing is my business."

 

Paislee

You can’t really compare a rogue’s hemo uptime to a caster's DoT uptime. You can’t argue the loss of damage per mana/energy because a rogue’s energy is infinite. Casters are careful not to overwrite their DoTs because DPS is lost from the delay before the new DoT begins ticking as well as from those that never ticked from the previous DoT. This cannot be compared to hemo because the hemo debuff itself does no damage and therefore no damage is “lost” if the debuff is overwritten. Additionally, when a new hemo debuff is applied, there is no delay before it becomes effective.

Or did I miss something?


It has been a lot of fun for the last few weeks raiding with a spec that is something different while remaining competitive to the traditional combat spec for DPS (albeit situational). It saddens me that the next patch may be taking us straight back to Molten Core.

 

aleyro

actually, no, i still don't understand- thank you very much, though, for taking the time to attempt to explain it. I do, however, think I understand the basis of our disconnect. It seems, after reading through your explantion here, that your concerned with how many charges of hemo are consumed by the rogue who is applying the hemo. I'm working under the assumption that, for all practical purposes, all of the charges are going to be consumed by OTHER players (which is deftinately the case now, but will likely still be the case after the fix is implemented).

IF you are concerned about consuming the most charges YOURSELF, then perhaps i can begin to understand why you would want to carefully time your attacks, but i'm still confused as to how your spending your energy while consuming the charges in less than 15 seconds...

If you are concerned about ensuring that the entire raid recieve the greatest possible benefit from hemo, I still believe the only way to do that is to strive for the best hemo uptime you can achieve, and that means using hemo at every possible opportunity...

 

◊ Hanos

Wrong!

Hemo has 10 charges, if it functions correctly and only gets used by melee, there are times when all 10 will not be used during the GCD. For example any fight where you have to run out, and then run back in, and come in with full energy. If you get there before anyone else you could burn charges by reapplying it while you have less then 80 energy: Run in, Hemo, S&D, Hemo charges still present... WAIT, then Hemo while still at 80 energy or less.

Hemo uptime is a stupid concept, it is not a DoT, your goal is to see every charge used every time without missing energy ticks or breaking your cycles. The result is you will end up with it up longer if you time your Hemos as opposed to spamming it (spamming and refreshing it while it is still up will mean time later while you are waiting for energy, and the debuff is down), because there are times where 1 second for the GCD will not be enough time to burn all the charges. Also, I would assume that you get atleast 1-3 of the charges for personal use depending on the number of melee you have in the raid.

 

skorpeo

Looks like the word is with 2.3.2 that hemo will become 110% weapon damage and quite possibly non-normalized which means only a 10% increase from pre-patch after all the changes. If this is true, Im wondering how going impSS, DD, prep spec like-
11/27/23

Would this work out better for personal DPS over the new hemo nerf?

 

◊ Kalman

The whole point of the change is to make hemo personal DPS lower while making the total raid DPS greater than bringing a combat rogue.

The reason for the change is that hemo was arguably too close in personal DPS while the boost to RDPS made it worth bringing more than one. It's a change intended to promote spec variety in a raid. Whether it will is hard to say.

 

Havenwood

With Hemo being nerfed from 125% to 110%, and the debuff being increased, tri-spec personal dps falls a bit further behind combat. Hopefully, tri-spec will still be a viable raid build due to the debuff increase. I suppose we will just have to wait and see what the new debuff numbers are.

My guess is that this nerf is directed at AR/Prep. Heres hoping that the debuff increase is substantial!

 

◊ Hanos

I have to agree, it seems like a number of the changes are directed at Arena play, however I think this nerf will probably end my Hemo Experimentation, I was willing to take a 2-3% personal DPS nerf to buff the raid, but I am not willing to take a 5%+ nerf without a more reliable buff. Give us something like Blood Frenzy, and I will stay Hemo, but the stupid charge mechanic has to go.

 

krusty50

Where did you get that "back to non-normalized" info?

 

Killars

Eh it's a personal choice, but if it increases overall raid damage you'd want at least 1 rogue to be hemo. Now I just wish they would change the mechanics of the hemo debuff. The debuff is effectively a raid debuff yet it lasts maybe a second or two at the most. In PvP the debuff is wasted almost entirely. What kinda debuff is this?!?!?! It needs to be like the hunter's Expose Weakness debuff imo. That would make a lot more sense and remove a lot less theory crafting.

 

Paislee

Hence my reference to Molten Core days. I understand wanting to design the spec around support vs DPS but it doesn't make me like it any better. Unless its debuff is substantial, I predict hemo will once again become the red-headed stepchild of rogue builds.

 

Philosopher

Looking at some basic, back of the envelope calculations it's going to require a significant increase to the debuff to make up the damage. Clearly they thought that hemorrhage used to do too much damage or something, because it is now going to be worse than it was pre-2.3. Since the reports I have heard so far are an increase of 1 damage per tick, or 2.5 dps under the best conditions, I'm finally going to get stuck back in Combat. I thought blizzard had done a wonderful job of balancing it, so it had slightly worse personal dps than a Combat rogue if a Hemorrhage rogue was present and slightly better if one wasn't.

My numbers:
old:
damage*1.25
new:
damage*1.1

% change:
damage*1.25 -damage*1.1
--------------------------------- = damage*(0.15/1.25) = 12% reduction in damage done
damage*1.25

Of my damage, 20% came from hemorrhage last week on tidewalker (maximum white damage time, minimum hemo damage):
0.12*0.2 = 2.4% change in over-all damage.
on most fights, it is closer to 25%:
0.12*0.25 = 3% reduction

my pre-armor theoretical damage (since the debuff is reduced by armor) is about 1800, according to the spreadsheet, so in order to make this reduction up:
best case:
1800*0.024 = 43 dps = 172 damage over the course of the debuff = 17 additional damage per charge
worst case:
1800*0.03 = 54 dps = 216 damage over the course of the debuff = 22 additional damage per charge

For personal damage, it is interesting to compare it to sinister strike:
Untalented SS:
damage*1.16+114
----- = damage*0.026+2.5 damage per energy
45

Talented SS (a 1st tier talent):
damage*1.16+114
----- = damage*0.029+2.85 damage per energy
40

Hemorrhage(a 21-point talent):
damage*1.1
---- = damage*0.031 damage per energy
35

so in order for hemorrhage to do more damage per energy than a talented sinister strike it would need to have damage*0.002 >2.85, or weapon damage must be greater than 1425. In order for it to do more energy than a non-talented sinister strike weapon damage would need to be greater than 500. So with my attack power and weapon (Talon, with 1714 attack power) I would be doing slightly more than someone who spent no talents in Combat, and far less damage per energy than someone who spent 2 points in combat.

The reason I ignored the debuff in these calculations is three-fold. First, there is no guarantee the charges get used. Second, they may get used by a protection warrior, an off-hand hit, someone with lower gear level than me, or any other of a number of conditions that make them not do their full damage. And third, that debuff is how Hemorrhage rogues were justifying their lower personal dps numbers even after the patch.

Edited for miscounting my points while signposting.

 

songster

Can people stop speculating without evidence, please? Save the calculations for when we have actual data on the new version of the debuff. Make sure we know all the details of the debuff - both the amount added and the number of charges. Anything else is just piss and wind.