42 debuff is a bummer. Lower personal dps, lower overall dps. Is it time to spec back to combat?
It's lower than we hoped true, but the end result is only a small nerf.
I've listed my gear / values here : http://rrvs.blogspot.com/
When using the spreadsheet it tells me that my own dps goes down by an estimate of 15 dps,
while my total raid dps only goes down by 1 dps.
Speccing back to combat wouldn't really improve that much i think.
Plus the bigger debuff, which should hopefully last longer as magic effects no longer eat it, will allow the tanks the get more threat as well, basically increasing the raid's aggro ceiling.
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I doubt it's not normalized. The new debuff is in fact a "spreadsheet" nerf. What I mean is since magic effects burn the debuffs on live, it will probably be a raid DPS increase with the bug fix(Hemo gets fixed and nerfed at the same time).
What questions me is about tri-spec talents. I had greater DPS with 4/5 Sword Spec 2/2 DD, but now with personal yellow damage nerfed, won't it be better with 5/5 Sword Spec?
I doubt it's not normalized. The new debuff is in fact a "spreadsheet" nerf. What I mean is since magic effects burn the debuffs on live, it will probably be a raid DPS increase with the bug fix(Hemo gets fixed and nerfed at the same time).
What questions me is about tri-spec talents. I had greater DPS with 4/5 Sword Spec 2/2 DD, but now with personal yellow damage nerfed, won't it be better with 5/5 Sword Spec?
I just did a check with the Spreadsheet, and 5/5+1/2 gives me about 1-2 less dps total than 4/5+2/2 would.
So, it mainly still depends on the situation.
For Vashj i'd take 2/2 as the last bit of the fight starts at 50%.
For Kael i'd take 1/2 to burn the shield faster.
And there are other examples.
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Actually I've been looking on the stats of last night's SSC and it seems that my yellow damage(Hemo & Rupture mainly)is more like 32-34% of my damage, and hemo being 22-24% of it, so even with a 12% nerf on Hemo my yellow damage is still over 28% so it's still worth it having 2/2 DD over 5/5 Sword Spec. That's from bosses, on trash white damage is greater since I can't lay off a full duration rupture(except against the bog lords)but trash doesn't matter anyway. I can't comment on Vashj and Kael, since we haven't started Kael yet and we've just started Vashj(still stuck on phase two).
Just did some extremely rough calculations, and I will loose arround ~42 personal dps and gain ~17 raid dps.
Hemo raid dps buff has been said to be ~100dps iirc, with calculation on armor reduction, critrates etc iirc?
42/36*100 --> 117dps, so a gain of 17 raid dps.
Say 1400 personal dps and roughly 25% of that comes from hemo, thats 350dps from hemo.
Direct hemo dmg is lowered from 125% to 110% --> Loosing 12% of the hemo damage.
350x12% --> 42dps lost in personal damage.
Do you think it could become an issue for other members of the raid if they increase the Hemo debuff too much? At least as Rogue's we can control our aggro easily enough. Could 42 damage end up being too much for others who might already be close to being threat capped?
Do you think it could become an issue for other members of the raid if they increase the Hemo debuff too much? At least as Rogue's we can control our aggro easily enough. Could 42 damage end up being too much for others who might already be close to being threat capped?
Unless you use a paladin tank or other class that is dependang on spell damage, it shouldn't matter much in theory.
Since, a warrior or druid will also be benefitting from the hemo buff and gain more threat because of it.
The only classes that might have a tiny bit more threat to deal with would be fury warriors, or enhancement shamans since they hit more often and have a higher crit rating than the tank would.
Hunters and rogue won't likely have an issue with it, since they can reset their threat.
Since the MT also gains the hemo buff for his hits, his threat goes up more than that of the mages, warlocks and shadow priests.
So it should actually make it easier for most people in the raid.
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Yeah. Good points. I was mainly thinking of situations where only the DPS might consume the charges instead of the MT. With only 10 charges available I think there is the potential for that to happen.
Yeah. Good points. I was mainly thinking of situations where only the DPS might consume the charges instead of the MT. With only 10 charges available I think there is the potential for that to happen.
It's highly dependang on the attack speed of each physical class in the raid.
*Hunters + Pets
*Warriors
*Druids
*Shamans
*Rogues
But the tank should have just as big a chance to grab a hemo charge as any of the others.
Over the entire time of the fight he'll just use less of them because his number of physical attacks is probably less than that of a BM pet or rogue.
I posted a "very rough" calculation sometime which presumes just about every physical class in the raid to have ~1 attack per second.
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My initial run through on the change as a Kara/Gruul geared Rogue with a fair bit of Arena gear is showing about a 28dps drop off in damage, with a net loss of 10 dps for the raid as a whole with the debuff on longer boss fights.
Adding in the fix on magic consuming charges, and I can't feel bad about this one at all.
It certainly won't move me away from Hemo, speaking as someone raiding mainly at the 10-man level.
Hmm - when I put the 110% change with the 42 damage debuff change through the spreadsheet (when I program through those changes myself), I still come out with higher raid DPS with 11/27/23 than 19/42/0 wearing 2/5 T4, 2/5 T5 and similar quality gear. After I updated the spreadsheet, I verified that I came out with exactly the same unbuffed and buffed DPS for combat swords on both.
You neglected to change a LOT of cell formulas for the PTR change for hemo. Cells overlooked include B4, C4, D4 on the Buffed and Unbuffed DPS sheets, cell X8 on the Buffed and Unbuffed cycles sheets.
Combat swords (before and after update):
777.67 unbuffed
1199.29 buffed (raid & personal DPS)
11/27/23 (before update)
805.39 unbuffed (hemo debuff on gear page of 1 - assumes I consume my own charges with specials, solo or 5 man)
1261.18 buffed - raid contribution (hemo debuff checked on talent page, hemo debuff on gear page 0)
1189.50 buffed - personal raid DPS
So yes, it's not quite as good as 125% and 36 debuff, but it's still better than combat swords, both buffed and unbuffed. It's far less of a change than I thought it would be truthfully. It's a 2.7% decrease to personal DPS in raids compared to 11/27/23 in the live server and a 1.6% decrease to raid DPS in the live server. However, even the PTR version is a 3.5% increase in raid DPS over combat swords.
I knew my personal DPS was almost exactly the same in the live server 11/27/23 and other melee were commenting on the improvement in their personal DPS, I didn't realize how good 11/27/23 was to be honest. Since the debuff is broken, I really didn't notice a marked increase in other people's DPS. When I properly check buffs and turn off racials (since Belfs can't use Arcane Torrent against bosses) and adjust for armor of specific bosses, I achieve almost exactly the DPS reflected in the spreadsheet on static fights (like morogrim) using 11/27/23 in the live server.
My feeling's otherwise. Maybe it's my playstyle, but I don't think I've ever managed to "drive" the tri-spec properly.
On trash, it's unquestionably worse on every parameter than combat. Longer cycles and less energy income means you don't "wind up" as fast as combat, and the mob dies before you've got properly started. Constant moving between targets mean you frequently get to a full energy bar and end up spamming Hemo, which is likely to waste the odd charge here and there IMO. Finally, you get almost no benefit from Dirty Deeds on trash - your finishers are dropped well before the critical number, so the only thing that gets the DD boost is maybe 1 or 2 Hemos and that's it.
On bosses, it may be that I'm too used to combat, but my timing was constantly off, letting S'n'D drop occasionally. Might also be the impact of the change in the hit cap meaning I'm no longer capped, of course. Once again, I think Deadly Deeds is getting overvalued, because the last few percent do not last anything like as long as the first few. Cooldowns are being blown, everyone has wound fully up to speed, the mob is fully debuffed, warriors are executing their tits off and mages sizzling with Molten Fury. Finally, I just miss AR too much. AR is considerably undervalued in both spreadsheets, as it assumes you pop it randomly without regard to other cooldowns, particularly Heroism/Bloodlust.
Finally, it goes without saying that the "PvE Hemo" spec sucks absolute balls in PvP. You sacrifice your burst DPS by losing AR, but you still don't have enough other PvP talents to be effective. If you want to PvP, get a proper PvP spec. As for me, I'll be going back to combat maces. For me, it's more effective in PvE, as well as being pretty monstrous in PvP. The only better spec PvE-wise would be combat swords or fists, and I don't have the itemisation for that at the moment.
Hmm - when I put the 110% change with the 42 damage debuff change through the spreadsheet (when I program through those changes myself), I still come out with higher raid DPS with 11/27/23 than 19/42/0 wearing 2/5 T4, 2/5 T5 and similar quality gear. After I updated the spreadsheet, I verified that I came out with exactly the same unbuffed and buffed DPS for combat swords on both.
You neglected to change a LOT of cell formulas for the PTR change for hemo. Cells overlooked include B4, C4, D4 on the Buffed and Unbuffed DPS sheets, cell X8 on the Buffed and Unbuffed cycles sheets.
Cells B4, C4, and D4 are not calculation cells and they have been really screwed up for awhile anyway. C4 and D4 are calculating off the wrong cells, all of them are using incorrect formulas. The only good thing is they mean nothing in terms of the overall calculations. Cell X8 looks correct to me on both cycle sheets. 1.1 multiplier and 420 debuff. Maybe you clicked on the one prior to the post stating the new debuff amount.
I plan to go make through some of those cells and fix them on my sheet, but I've been looking at other things in my free time, primarily the correctness of calculations that matter.
My guess is that Hemo is still the raid choice for lower gear levels. The debuff should be enough to make up for most of the difference until you have enough additional damage from instants that the difference is greater than the debuff.
Pleased to see that tri-spec still beats combat for raid DPS (in my t4 gear anyway)
I'm the only rogue in my guild who's even remotely interested in a Hemo spec, and I actually like it a lot, so I'll definitely be sticking with it.
AR is considerably undervalued in both spreadsheets, as it assumes you pop it randomly without regard to other cooldowns, particularly Heroism/Bloodlust.
How in particular do AR and Heroism/Bloodlust synergize? The first affects strictly yellow, the latter strictly white damage, so there's no difference between popping them simultaneously or one after another.
How in particular do AR and Heroism/Bloodlust synergize? The first affects strictly yellow, the latter strictly white damage, so there's no difference between popping them simultaneously or one after another.
More energy yields more yellow attacks, which in turn yields more mongoose/executioner procs, leading to an increase in white damage done during heroism.
My feeling's otherwise. Maybe it's my playstyle, but I don't think I've ever managed to "drive" the tri-spec properly.
On trash, it's unquestionably worse on every parameter than combat. Longer cycles and less energy income means you don't "wind up" as fast as combat, and the mob dies before you've got properly started. Constant moving between targets mean you frequently get to a full energy bar and end up spamming Hemo, which is likely to waste the odd charge here and there IMO. Finally, you get almost no benefit from Dirty Deeds on trash - your finishers are dropped well before the critical number, so the only thing that gets the DD boost is maybe 1 or 2 Hemos and that's it.
All true, but I don't think anyone specs to be better at trash.
Originally Posted by songster
On bosses, it may be that I'm too used to combat, but my timing was constantly off, letting S'n'D drop occasionally. Might also be the impact of the change in the hit cap meaning I'm no longer capped, of course. Once again, I think Deadly Deeds is getting overvalued, because the last few percent do not last anything like as long as the first few. Cooldowns are being blown, everyone has wound fully up to speed, the mob is fully debuffed, warriors are executing their tits off and mages sizzling with Molten Fury. Finally, I just miss AR too much. AR is considerably undervalued in both spreadsheets, as it assumes you pop it randomly without regard to other cooldowns, particularly Heroism/Bloodlust.
SnD shouldn't fall off in any spec, it is by far the biggest increase to damage esp. w/ 2piece T6. I for one get a consistant 4/5 or 5/5 rotation for the most part. I don't bind myself to only using 4/5, but that is my norm and I keep SnD up at all times. DD maybe overvalued, but that is on farm content, and as far as I'm concerned farmed content is not something to spec for. When your progressing in Sunwell or w/e and your guild is wiping or on the first kill where lots of people die, that last 35% will be long, and if your still up that is a marginally bigger inc to your damage overall than 1/5 SS. AR is not undervalued at all, that is just an illusion that Combat rogues have because they had their only burst talent for so long, and I am guilty of once thinking this way. AR is energy, what you do with energy is limited by ticks of energy that you have. AR gives double energy PER TICK, so you get 140 energy effectively from the talent, which is 3-4 Sinister Strikes or 4 Hemo's. The benefit your trinket, proc, etc. will give those 3-4 attacks is tiny esp if your evis doesn't even crit, you just made yourself use an ability that does a lot less damage because you had too much energy. Unless your combining AR w/ BF the benefit isn't at all "undervalued".
Originally Posted by songster
Finally, it goes without saying that the "PvE Hemo" spec sucks absolute balls in PvP. You sacrifice your burst DPS by losing AR, but you still don't have enough other PvP talents to be effective. If you want to PvP, get a proper PvP spec. As for me, I'll be going back to combat maces. For me, it's more effective in PvE, as well as being pretty monstrous in PvP. The only better spec PvE-wise would be combat swords or fists, and I don't have the itemisation for that at the moment.
PvE hemo sucks for PvP.... Who'd a thunk it. If you want to PvP competitively, respec. Maces for PvE is a laugh and I would personally never mix my PvE spec and PvP spec when I know I'd want to min/max all the talents to be best suited for the environment/encounters.
When I first came to this thread we actually discussed the topic at hand being Combat vs Hemo. I'd like to recall that topic and say striaght up how disappointed I am after all the spreadsheets, all the replys, and all the back and forth cross referencing, that Hemo got nerfed and is now not even close to Combat swords as far as I'm concerned. We got jerked pretty hard there, just when we thought there was an alt to Combat =/
0/35/26 PvP
20/41/0 PvE
That's just the way it's gonna be for me here on out. GL to the rest of you all comming to a conclusion.
12/05/07, 11:30 PM
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