Carmak

But in the fights you mention the hard parts include killing mobs from 100->0 so it's not that much different. And being able to kill Vashj faster isn't bad.

 

Sarlunas

What worries me about the new hemo is that it appears 11/27/22+1 is going to scale significantly worse than combat. According to the DPS sheet hemo will still be viable at low-end gear/buffs but with T6 gear and full raid buffs combat pulls so far ahead that the loss in personal dps becomes greater than what the debuff can provide even under ideal conditions.

I guess you could say the point of inflection is going in the other direction now, and even well before T6 I would be quite dubious about giving up a big chunk of personal dps only to get roughly the same amount of raid dps back. If these numbers are correct I'd say PvE hemo is pretty much dead, the only real utility in the sub tree is cheat death and you'll give up a heck of a lot of dps to reach that.

 

Wodahs

Ill wait till I play with 11/27/23 in a raid before I pass judgement. Ive pulled 2k dps on many many fights with this spec, even when only getting 1 heroism. The nerf should drop a 2k dps fight to a ~1940 dps fight or somewhere around there. Add in the utility hemo provides, and Id have to say its still viable.

 

aleyro

so... I know we've beat this horse before, but maybe its not as dead as we thought.

If shadowstep is on a 30 second CD, increases dmg of your next backstab by 20%, produces a CP, and only costs 10 energy.... it seems pretty attractive. is there any viability to a x/x/41 build yet?

 

koaschten

Aleyro, then please enlighten us how you want to get enough combat talents for sustained dps after you have taken Maliciousness, Remorseless Attacks, Relentless Strikes and Improved Backstab. However you will twist that specc, you are forced to get at least 8 in Assassination for Imp. Backstab. That leaves as little as 12 points in combat, aka 2/3 SnD and 5/5 Precision. No Dagger Spec, no DW Spec.
No way this specc will do any good in PvE, the only thing i can think of it will be good for is for ganking low geared people in Warsong Gulch. And for that it was pretty viable before 2.3.

 

Killars

Yea I use daggers for one thing and one thing only, throwing on my full T6 etc. and ambushing kids for 6k+. I can't wait for the next patch btw. Watch your backs if your on the Ruin battle group =P

Other than the above the spec is complete garbage. As he said Aleyro, you simply just lose too much of the things that allow for sustained raid DPS. I do dream however of one day speccing it for illidan so when he's in a trap I can shadowstep/vanish ambush him and see a huge crit. Not sure how much the trap adds but assuming raid buffs consumables and the trap effect, im sure 12k would be expected. I can dream....

 

Ashere

Apart from swordpec (and sometimes even then only when dual wielding swords), every weapon spec is more then compensated by Deadliness, for most weapons enough to make up the difference between WE and DD as well. The things you'll miss most from combat would be Dual Wield and WE, and the build you'd end up with would be something like this 12/8/41 build:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

About 5% below hemo-hybrid if you include the debuff in your calculations. But that's on paper of course.

 

Buanna

I'm going to show my Rogue stupidity here, but doesn't Shadowstep remove you from combat? Once you're out of combat, can't you just use regular stealth instead of Vanish?

 

PSGarak

Nope, shadowstep no longer has any relation to either combat or stealth.
Also since shadowstep is now any ability rather than just backstab/ambush, you don't really need daggers to support it. I'm reasonably sure that, illidan traps aside, the best use of it would be ruptures. This is not to say it's at all viable, just ever-so-slightly more tractable.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Killars

Hemo-hybrid is not worth it most likely anymore, and hemo-hybrid also has a raid debuff which is the only reason it was competetively good, the shadowstep build would not include hemoing thus no debuff. Against a Combat build you'd lose much more than the few talents you listed. Combat potency is a glaring talent you avoided mentioning, its nearly the whole basis of being combat in the first place.

As far as you link of a build goes, not getting Precision is just a huge no no. If your in PvE and you don't have Precision there is something wrong, very wrong. The build also loses (compared to combat) Bladeflurry, 1/3 Ruthlessness, Murder, Vile Poisons, Suprise attacks and Lethality to just name a few.

No, thad be a bit OP in some cases.

 

Killars

Well it's a ridiculous argument but wouldn't a higher damage ability scale better with dirty deeds % inc, the % inc on the trap, the % inc on the master of sub damage, and the % inc on shadow step?

20% + 20% + 10% = 50% inc to damage on top of the trap effect.

50% of a 6k ambush would seem to be more valuable than 50% of a 3k Rupture. My objective anyway would be to get a big crit for cool factor, not to make it a viable spec for the fight. If you really want the best total damage considering you don't have a big window to damage Illidan with the trap up you'd prob get 3 combo points right before the trap goes up, then Shadowstep, Ambush, THEN rupture. Your rupture wouldn't get the Shadowstep, but id be ticking for a ridiculous amount.

Anyone know how much of an increase the trap is anyway?

 

Ashere

[quote=Killars;571914]Hemo-hybrid is not worth it most likely anymore[quote]
hemo-hybrid in 2.3.2 is basically back at 2.2 viability, with the addition of more viability at lower AP levels and smaller raids. However, it's scaling is a little backward now, so at BT level, it might be no longer viable instead.

No, the old hemo-hybrid, and the new hemo-hybrid alike, rely very heavily on increased white damage and ruptures. These put the build slightly behind combat, while the debuff fills up the last bit of the gap.

And why would a shadowstep build not include hemo? Shadowstep's damage buff is no longer limited to Ambush/backstab/garrote (and the last one didn't need a dagger in the first place). You can also just start out with a hemo, a Ghostly Strike, a Rupture if you have the CP's.. Any one of those could get the damagebuff.

Combat Potency is a strong talent, and it's indeed the basis of being combat these days. That one talent basically makes up for SS's energy cost, bringing it more or less in line with hemo.

Maybe you noticed how I was replying there to someone who was interested in a deep subtlety build? IF someone insists on going deep subtlety, then Assa just happens to be a better sidekick then combat is. Given the choice, Relentless Strikes and Dual Wield basically avarage out in DPS. The remaining choice is.. Take the garbage that you have to get from Combat before reaching Dual Wield, or take the easy to reach DPS talents from Assassination? Since Dual Wield is all that you can reach with a Deep Sub build. Then there is the thing that a backstab/ambush rogue sometimes needs 1 cheap combopoint. Shiv is an option, normalized hemo is now an option, Sinister Strike is definitely no option since it's not cheap, with Combat Potency being out of reach.

Given the choice, a talent point in Imp SnD sorts more effect then a point in Precision

Which is not a DPS but a utility talent, we figured that out in this thread ages ago. The only reason people spec 11/21/29 instead of 11/20/30 is the utility on adds and trash. On single target, it's not that useful.

Yes, maybe that point in precision should go there instead.

Murder is officially a filler talent

Great talent, but it doesn't compare to Imp SnD

A deep sub build with Surprise Attacks.... Keep dreaming. The damage buff is pretty nice, but pre-2.3 theorycrafting in this thread already proved that this talent is definitely not a must-have for raiding.

Of all talents, you name Lethality? That talent is a filler to get to the poison talents, only a coldblood rogue actually has any use for it. Still, it's no comparison to SnD for example. If it wasn't for SnD, the combat tree should be dropped entirely for assa talents in a deep sub build.

And no, I definitely wouldn't dare bring a deep sub gankspec to a raid myself, I'm more then happy with 11/21/29 right now, which is a lot more viable.

 

Left

Shadowstep doesn't initially look useful in a Hemo build when you are talking about Energy efficiency of a single ability. The reason is that the energy cost outweighs the added damage.

25 Energy Rupture -> 35 Energy Shadowstep Rupture = 20% increase in damage, 40% increase in Energy cost
35 Energy Hemo -> 45 Energy Shadowstep Hemo = 20% increase in damage, 28% increase in Energy cost

What I was surprised to see, however, is that it does help with overall energy efficiency, because it allows you to switch energy from a less efficiency move (Hemo) to a more efficient one (Rupture)

What is really comes down to for using Shadowstep on ruptures is whether the 10 energy involved is better applied to increasing the rupture or to getting your next Hemo off earlier. If I use my current Swords gear in the spreadsheet, my Hemos deal about 1000 damage per attack (after accounting for armor). 10/35*1000 = 285 dmg, so that 10 energy applied to a Hemo is worth about 285 dmg.

That same 10 energy applied to a Rupture means that my 1982 Rupture does an additional 396 damage, or 514 more if mangle is on the mob.

 

Cire

I'm sure that this is basic, but I have only ever been combat on my rogue. With a hemo spec, do you spam hemo instead of sinister strike? Or just hit it every other time or something? Seems like you would need to spam it in raids, but not so much in PvP?

 

Killars

Ashere man you are all over the place. I don't get what you are responding to and after I responded to you, you went completely off base. The talents you listed I never said were ground breaking talents, rather the fact of what you are trading for them makes them valuable. Lethality, Precision, DW spec, Bladeflurry, Murder, etc. are all superior talents than most of the sub talents as they themselves don't relly inc damage, but rather give stealth buff's etc. The Sub tree is a Sub tree for a reason, it's not based on raid damage at all which is why it's not a viable raid spec. I was trying to show you and the person you responded to why it isn't a raid spec and you responded to me with... well yea lmao. My objective wasn't to give a better sub based spec, but rather to tell you a sub based spec at all is just a waste of time, and to give you reasons why it was.

You realize the build you linked not only had Imp backstab but also had 5/5 opportunity. I say you wouldn't Hemo, you say why not. Well if your going to Hemo, your going to use it as your main attack as it will wear off by the time you have energy to do it again. So why would you use 8 talent points to increase backstab damage if you're not backstabbing? Also you say Lethality is garbage... What is really garbage isn't Lethality, but rather the damage your Backstab (assuming you use it) will do without it. Again, assuming your making use of the 8 talent point's you would be using daggers, correct? Nice Hemo with daggers... could that be any more worthless? I don't know if im more amazed at the crapiness of the build, the short time it took you to think through it, or the fact you took time to defend it with actual belief it wasn't half bad.


I really don't get why people make a PvP spec that is horrid for raids, and try to bend it in ways to actually use it for PvE. It doesn't work. PvP specs should stay on course with their line of being PvP specs, don't bother trying to get PvE talents and raid with it, it's going to suck regardless. PvE specs go the same way. They are most likely going to suck for PvP so don't try to switch things around otherwise. 20/41 isn't bad for both, but I wouldn't ruin it's use in PvE to make it amazing for PvP.

Don't know if this is going to get an infraction, but I think getting my point across was well worth it.

 

Left

Yes, you use hemo as your primary (only) attack. There is no point to using SS without Comat Potency; you get better damage per energy with Hemo (as was gone over a few pages back). Not to mention better combo point generation, and the fact that at steady state energy usage in a raid all the charges should be used up before you are hemo-ing again.

When I go Hemo sinister strike is nowhere on my bars.

 

Cire

I figured, but was not sure. I tried looking around this thread, but it's pretty large and couldn't find it spelled out. Thanks!

I've really enjoyed branching out with my rogue. I actually made a shadowstep build, similar to the ones in the roguecraft 101 thread. It's really fun in PvP. I realize that my DPS will suffer a lot in PvE but not a big deal in the guild I'm in atm

 

Anked

Left, I hate to burst your bubble but you missed something. The new shadowstep adds a combo point thus decreasing energy cost. The real figure should work around combo points not just energy and damage.

So...
25 Energy Rupture, @4cp -> 35 Energy Shadowstep Rupture = 20% increase in damage, +1cp, 40% increase in Energy cost per damage, assuming hemo as a main ability this becomes a finisher in place of a combo point generation aka 140% decrease in Energy cost per combo point.
35 Energy Hemo, +1cp -> 45 Energy Shadowstep Hemo = 20% increase in damage, +1cp, 28% increase in Energy cost per damage, 36% decrease in Energy cost per combo point.

Unless that's changed and I didn't hear about it...

 

Left

That is an excellent point; I wasn't aware of Shadowstep adding a combo point. (I was just going off the description on Wowhead's talent calculator.)

If Shadowstep does add a combo point, then it has the added benefit of letting you tighten your cycle by one combo point about every 30 seconds. This basically amounts to further energy shifting from high-cost (Hemo) to low-cost (Rupture) moves, and might be as significant as the damage increase itself.

 

songster

Hmm, yes. What this actually does is make Shadowstep/Hemo scale similarly to a Combat Potency build.

Talented SS = 40 energy, comes down to about 32 with Combat Potency, and finishers free through Relentless Strikes.
Hemo = 35 energy. In tri-spec, finishers are free.

35 > 32, so the tri-spec scales worse than a full combat spec.

Now let's look at the energy costs per cycle for a full sub build (i.e. no Relentless Strikes). Assuming a 5s/5r cycle (typical for Hemo), a cycle costs 400 energy. With Shadowstep, this comes down to 375 energy (you replace a 35e Hemo with a 10e Shadowstep). Still much worse than the ~320 energy a combat build uses for the same cycle.

What happens if you look at a build that takes Shadowstep and Relentless Strikes? That means free finishers. Using the same 5s/5r cycle, the cost is now 350 energy with no Shadowstep, coming down to 325 energy if you use shadowstep once per cycle. Now we have almost identical scaling to a combat build.

It's not quite equal though. With Aggression and Surprise Attacks, Sinister Strikes hits for 116.6% weapon damage + a flat amount, while Hemo hits for 110% weapon damage + a flat amount. Thus combat will continue to scale marginally better than Hemo based on raw weapon damage. Set against that, Sinister Calling and Deadliness mean that deep sub builds scale better with Agility/AP than any other build in the game.

So, the conclusion is that if you use Shadowstep as a combo point builder, it's just about possible to create a subtlety build that scales similarly to a combat build. However, to do so, you need to be 11/x/41, meaning you lose dual wield specialisation and precision. I can't see that ever being viable in a raid context. As I've said before (and given feedback to Blizzard in their recent threads), the problems with cookie cutter rogue builds don't hinge on Sub being weak, but on the fact that dual wield specialisation, precision and relentless strikes are essential for every raiding build. That means deep sub is out of bounds however much they buff it.

 

gummy2

Has anyone else tried 31 combat 30 sub in pve? (25 man raids)

I have been using this spec both as pvp and pve and in practice the damage I put out is very comparable in BT/hyjal to combat maces. (I do not have swords yet, haven't had time to pvp for s3 weapons) On paper it is inferior without adding the hemo debuff but I find myself doing much more damage than any spreadsheet says.

I have tried 31combat/30sub with and without imp snd. Both specs did very respectable damage.

 

Killars

At page 57 of this thread you simply just need to read what has already been posted about 18x. No it is awful if you don't get Assassination talents. Please stop reasking the same stuff over and over and check a few pages back.

 

songster

Indeed. I suspect the apparent good performance of this build is due to people using Prep/AR to boost trash DPS, as compared to combat rogues who save their AR for emergencies and don't generally bother with it at all on trash. The freedom of Prep means people will be more willing to blow cooldowns on trash. It's pretty much illusory benefit, as trash DPS rarely matters to the group as a whole and is purely for e-peen.

 

Killars

I'm Combat, I use Bladeflurry/AR all the time on trash. I usually top trash meters (not like anyone cares) for my guild. I especially make use of it in Hyjal. It's part of the reason I get Endurance in my PvE build. I typically try to always tank a trash mob, as I would rather myself tank it anyway. Since I'm the MA I take that on myself to be the one that should pull aggro above anyone else and I'm usually prepared to do so willingly.

 

gummy2

I've been raiding as AR/Prep 31/30 for a couple of weeks and on bosses I don't notice a huge difference in damage when I can make use of both AR's at 35%. I understand that without assassination talents the spec is hard to play, and very diificult to work in an effective cycle to fit in finishers other than snd. However even without using ruptures as much as a combat spec I am finding through practice that the spec still deals a decent amount of damage out.

I'm asking if anyone else uses this spec so we can compare how well it does to tri spec hemo and cookie cutter combat because quite frankly, if I can do similar dps + give a debuff (I really dont care about the debuff but its a small selling point) and pvp with the same spec, why should I bother respeccing back and forth?

Songster I refer only to boss damage, not trash, I can care less about that when people put out 50% effort on trash.
Don't feed me spreadsheet numbers, I know how bad the spec plays out, i'm using it. I want to see numbers from raids not theorycraft.