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Old 11/09/07, 5:37 PM   #841
Killars
Von Kaiser
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Alterac Mountains
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Might be seeing how high he can get regarding the +hit change coming on Tuesday, which is something I have personally played with different gear combinations to check. If that isn't the case, and that is the gear he plays with... yeah he is about 30-31 points over the hit cap.

Personally I am more amused that he is wearing Shadowprowler's Chestguard, yet has BT Gems in his Egdewalkers and Belt of Deep Shadows.

Just Checked - Neutral with Ashtongue and Scales of the Sand, looks like he is a very wealthy player, who farms Kara.
I have full access to hit gear and I have 273 with not a single 10+hit gem. Even if that is a test that must be an expensive one, but I doubt it is. The difference between 270-280 hit - 305 hit is very small as far as a DPS inc as far as I've seen. This also brings me to my next little topic. Come 2.3, when we don't have CP, I think hit will become even less effective (Hemo wise). Sure you still want to hit as much as possible and, and you still want SS procs and other things of that nature, but CP being gone is a huge reason for me to lower my hit a bit in exchange for other stats.


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Old 11/09/07, 7:33 PM   #842
Kenamoto
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Burning Legion
Curious question; I'm not able to acquire a decent MH mace to test with on ptrs, But, If you went a 11/28/22 spec and got a MH mace with an OH sword. Would the benefit of OH sword procs affecting MH hemo strikes be worth it or is it better to just go 2 swords with an 11/28/22 build or with a Mace/sword not benefit hemo?

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Old 11/09/07, 7:48 PM   #843
weirdaljr
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Llane
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Might be seeing how high he can get regarding the +hit change coming on Tuesday, which is something I have personally played with different gear combinations to check. If that isn't the case, and that is the gear he plays with... yeah he is about 30-31 points over the hit cap.

Personally I am more amused that he is wearing Shadowprowler's Chestguard, yet has BT Gems in his Egdewalkers and Belt of Deep Shadows.

Just Checked - Neutral with Ashtongue and Scales of the Sand, looks like he is a very wealthy player, who farms Kara.
Everything seems pretty right in this quote except the word "Very"

I spent a bit of money to raise my +hit a bit for 2.3 without sacrificing too much AP with my gear level. I only have kara and Gruul on farm, and the gear you saw in that armory was for 2.3 raiding. Does anyone think there is something wrong with my 337 hit for 2.3? I usually do 1agi = 1.15 hit = 2 ap - for max RAID DPS... as long as im below the cap (2.3 cap prep)

Last edited by weirdaljr : 11/09/07 at 7:56 PM.

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Old 11/09/07, 10:41 PM   #844
Valdez
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Blackrock
I don't know if this is old news here, but: Hemorrhage is now 132-133% weapon damage, up from 125%. They patched last night.

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Old 11/09/07, 10:46 PM   #845
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
You sure that's not just the 4/5 T6 talking? Since that's been known for a couple of weeks.

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Old 11/09/07, 10:53 PM   #846
sltyntzhrt
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Shattered Hand
What kind of trinkets should we run with as hemo these days? As DST is still an amazing for a Combat build, the 20% weapon speed and 40ap still cant seem to be better then maybe the Ashtongue rep trinket or tsunami(for pure stats). Also WSC might become obsolete with increases armor pen that could theoretically become 0 with CoR,Sunder,FF, and passive armor pen making WSC's 1000 armor debuff way overneeded.

I assume MotB would be a better replacement trinket as a smaller but longer uptime debuff.

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Old 11/09/07, 11:16 PM   #847
Valdez
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
You sure that's not just the 4/5 T6 talking? Since that's been known for a couple of weeks.
You're right, my mistake. I didn't remember it changing my tooltips last time I logged in. Oh well!

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Old 11/10/07, 4:43 AM   #848
Kyreen
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Frostmourne
Originally Posted by finduluin View Post
As anyone tried a Fist-Spec hémo build intead of Sword Spec ?

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

[Talon of Azshara] is equal to [Talon of the Phoenix] regarding damage, overall speed, but I prefer fist weapon btw.

Any clue ?
I would like some feedback on this too, currently i am fist/sword spec Mainhanding Talon of the Phoenix and offhand S2 sword. I'm considering changing to hemo in 2.3 but dont know which direction to go.
Fist/sword doesnt seem viable for hemo (is it?) so i need to know if there is much difference between going fist/fist or sword/sword, or to stay fist/sword.

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Old 11/10/07, 8:55 AM   #849
Yoink
Fire = Hot
 
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Orc Rogue
 
Khadgar
Originally Posted by Kyreen View Post
I would like some feedback on this too, currently i am fist/sword spec Mainhanding Talon of the Phoenix and offhand S2 sword. I'm considering changing to hemo in 2.3 but dont know which direction to go.
Fist/sword doesnt seem viable for hemo (is it?) so i need to know if there is much difference between going fist/fist or sword/sword, or to stay fist/sword.
I'd also be very interested on some feedback regarding this. I might be being somewhat dense and/or stupid, but I'm not able to see where the 4-5% crit from fist spec would be worse than the 8% increased attack power (although, my attack power is only around 1650 currently). Currently, I plan to spec 11/27/23 with 4/5 fist spec and 2/2 WE. Am I misguided in my math (or just not factoring in something that I should be) or would this actually end up being better than the extra 8% attack power?

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Old 11/10/07, 9:38 AM   #850
Ashere
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Khadgar (EU)
Originally Posted by Jojo_el_Mono View Post
I'd also be very interested on some feedback regarding this. I might be being somewhat dense and/or stupid, but I'm not able to see where the 4-5% crit from fist spec would be worse than the 8% increased attack power (although, my attack power is only around 1650 currently). Currently, I plan to spec 11/27/23 with 4/5 fist spec and 2/2 WE. Am I misguided in my math (or just not factoring in something that I should be) or would this actually end up being better than the extra 8% attack power?

For 4/5 fist spec: Divide your AP by 14.5 to get a rough AP damage estimate, then add that to your weapon's avarage base damage to get a total damage estimate, multiply this by 1.04 and make a note of the result.

For AP spec: Multiply your AP by 1.08, divide the result by 14.5 to get a rough AP damage estimate, add your weapon's avarage base damage, make another note.

Now compare the results.
The strong point about Combat is Weapon Expertise here, it's not any weapon spec. So if you really want to make a good decision, then you have to work out (WE + Weapon Spec) vs (DD + Deadliness)

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Old 11/10/07, 2:50 PM   #851
Killars
Von Kaiser
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Alterac Mountains
I'm not a spreed sheet whiz, but I can't see how 8% AP (168 roughly for me) is better than WE 2/2 and 4/5 Sword Spec. Sword spec I think comes out to be 3-4% of my damage on most fights, I don't know how that translates into AP, but add that 3-4% with WE and together those are 2 pretty strong talents. I dunno, I think AP after a certain amount loses its effectiveness per point, but again I'm no spreed sheet whiz.


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Old 11/10/07, 3:51 PM   #852
Ashere
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Khadgar (EU)
Originally Posted by Killars View Post
I think AP after a certain amount loses its effectiveness per point, but again I'm no spreed sheet whiz.
Damage scales linear to your AP, so far no hardcap has been found, every X points of AP is always worth Y damage, so no, it never loses effectiveness. The only reason not to go for more AP is to bring other stats on par, not because AP becomes less effective. More AP is always better, as long as your hit doesn't suffer and drop below a workable tresshold.

Crit relies on these two, there is a huge difference between critting with 1500 AP or critting with 500 AP. And misses won't crit anyway. But, crit relies slightly more on hitting then on AP. Dagger rogues hit faster, so they sometimes rely a bit more on AP again, to improve their base damage and thus their crits, even if they'd occasionally miss.

Haste takes this even further, it depends very much on the previous three: AP, hit and crit. You can deck out a rogue with tons of haste modifiers, but if he doesn't have much damage to deal from AP in the first place, never crits, or worst of all, never actually hits, then you could try to get his warglave to 1 second speed, but it'd be useless. You'll also already want some crit rate before bothering with this. You're increasing your attackspeed, but crit just is a lot easier to get, you don't want to drop 5% chance in critting to increase your attackspeed by 2% You'd basically drop in DPS by somewhere between 2 and 3 percent.

It's just that at some point, some stat may hardly increase anymore, while another is plenty available. In such a case, you might benefit from dropping one stat by 1 or 2 percent, to raise another by a good amount like 5%. And AP is exactly one of the things where that's the case. In BT for example, it raises only marginally, while there's a lot of haste laying around.

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Old 11/10/07, 4:34 PM   #853
drumbum
King Hippo
 
Human Rogue
 
Sargeras
Originally Posted by Ashere View Post
Crit relies on these two, there is a huge difference between critting with 1500 AP or critting with 500 AP. And misses won't crit anyway. But, crit relies slightly more on hitting then on AP. Dagger rogues hit faster, so they sometimes rely a bit more on AP again, to improve their base damage and thus their crits, even if they'd occasionally miss.
Not exactly. The speed of attacks doesn't have any effect on the overall sustained white damage you do. There's no difference in comparing daggers versus swords in regard to the importance of the stats. (However, the difference in weapon specialization talents does change this somewhat.)

Hit chance and crit chance are NOT directly coupled (i.e., improving one does not make the other more valuable).

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Old 11/10/07, 5:48 PM   #854
Yoink
Fire = Hot
 
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Orc Rogue
 
Khadgar
Thank you for the responses guys. I appreciate the help =)

For 4/5 fist spec: Divide your AP by 14.5 to get a rough AP damage estimate, then add that to your weapon's avarage base damage to get a total damage estimate, multiply this by 1.04 and make a note of the result.

For AP spec: Multiply your AP by 1.08, divide the result by 14.5 to get a rough AP damage estimate, add your weapon's avarage base damage, make another note.
From this, I got 494.90 for 4/5 fist spec, and 484.86 for 4/5 Deadliness (1631 AP, 253.5 average MH, 109.88 average OH after factoring in dual wield penalty). I would also need to lose Weapon Expertise to be able to get 4/5 Deadliness, so it would seem that fist spec would be better to take than Deadliness.

As far as Weapon Expertise and Dirty Deeds goes, WE will add 2.5% dodge and parry reduction, so 2.5% DPS increase, and I think Dirty Deeds would be roughly 2.4% increase from the mini-execute part alone, and then you get the additional portion that reduces the energy cost of openers. So if you had to make a choice, I think Dirty Deeds would be better, but getting both is just awesome =D

Last edited by Yoink : 11/10/07 at 6:05 PM.

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Old 11/10/07, 6:14 PM   #855
Seeten
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Rogue
 
Eldre'Thalas
Originally Posted by aegris View Post
This is offtopic but I just have to ask someone who's answer will be respected:

When do you actually want to use shiv in PVE?

On topic:

Would a mace rogue benefit more from hemo in 2.3 or would they be better off doing the standard combat spec? We have a quite a few mace rogues in my guild, either by choice or RNG, and im curious to see what you guys thought.
I shiv Mind Numb onto healers on Solarian?

I shiv Mind Numb onto the casters in Mag's lair?

I imagine any other healer that isnt immune to mind numb and heals/casts something nasty will get a shiv, too.

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