[Rogue]The Combat vs Hemo Point of Inflection - Page 58

Xanthi · 11/10/07, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by sltyntzhrt

Also WSC might become obsolete with increases armor pen that could theoretically become 0 with CoR,Sunder,FF, and passive armor pen making WSC's 1000 armor debuff way overneeded.

I assume MotB would be a better replacement trinket as a smaller but longer uptime debuff.

From [RAID] Boss armor values
"With 4010 armor taken off by outside debuffs, the player themselves only need to deal with 2190 or 3690 armor. It should be trivial to see what benefit certain items have then."

I tried to calculate the max armor penetration you could get from gear (ignoring serrated blade) and it came out to be 4051 if everything procced, 3051 without WSC. Assuming no procs at all that's 1911 ArP, pretty close to the lower end cap.

head Vengeful Gladiator's Leather Helm 84
neck Choker of Serrated Blades 175
shoulder Slayer's Shoulderpads 175
back Dory's Embrace 112
chest Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass 210
bracers -none- 0
gloves Slayer's Handguards 175
belt Bladeangel's Money Belt 77
pants Shady Dealer's Pantaloons 175
boots -none- 0
r1 Stormrage Signet Ring 126
r2 Signet of Primal Wrath 126
t1 Madness of the Betrayer 300
t2 Warp-Spring Coil 1000
mh Boundless Agony 210
oh Prowler's Strikeblade 140
range Ancient Sin'dorei Longbow 126
enchant Executioner 840

Looking at the gear choice though, some of it is rather unfeasable for raiding and although i still get to keep my 2pc t6 bonus, i doubt it'll be worth it to stack so much armor penetration at the cost of other stats. With min-maxing swords though it's likely that i'll only have around 602 passive armor penetration (no proc/serrated blade). With procs accounting for 2140 ArP (motb+executioner+wsc) it looks like there is still room for wsc in high armor encounters, making it very situational at best with executioner being the new MH enchant of choice for pve. Sorry if my post seems like its going in a circle, but my initial thought was that it's not possible to reach 0 armour, but i guess i proved myself wrong.

When do you actually want to use shiv in PVE?

You're not gonna be using it in your dps cycle, but it has a few situational uses in pve to make it worth keeping on your bar. For example at illidan, for p1/3/5 i put wounding on my OH and shiv to stack 5 (esp p3/5) or to refresh the stack if it looks like its in danger of dropping off, while in p4 i switch to my spare OH which has crippling poison and shiv the demons before killing it. At RoS i shiv mind-numbing when it's in danger of dropping. Ultimately, shiv is pretty useless in pve if you're looking at pure snd/rupture cycles but has its situational use when you need the poisons to be up.

Neckface · 11/10/07, 11:13 PM

Some more data on the 11/28/22 vs. 11/27/23 question, "Which is more valuable: a point of Sword Spec or a point of the new Dirty Deeds?"

Methodology:
I went through the WWS data for a recent night in Hyjal, and for each boss I computed the benefit of one point of sword spec and the theoretical benefit of one point of DD, if I had it. (I'm currently 11/28/22).

SS: I simply divided the number of sword spec procs by 5 (keeping the decimal) and multiplied by average mainhand damage. Normally it's hard to tease apart mainhand from offhand damage, but fortunately pre-2.3 Hemo = normal white hit. The product of those two numbers is a reasonable approximation of the contribution from SS.

DD: For Dirty Deeds I added up rupture and hemo damage, then multiplied by 0.035 (i.e 35% times 10%). That product is approximately what a single point of DD could be expected to contribute.

Lastly, I divided the DD number by the SS number, to get a percentage of how much the Dirty Deeds would have contributed relative to Sword Spec, point for point. The results:

Rage: 57% (i.e., DD would have been 57% as good as SS for this fight)
Anatheron: 86%
Kaz'rogal: 76%
Azgalor: 89%

It should be noted that on Azgalor I was on Doomguard duty the entire fight.

Edit: Oops. I forgot to include crit rate in the sword spec estimate. Numbers above are now revised.

Also, in terms of overall impact on dps, moving a point do DD in those 4 fights would have lowered overall dps by: 0.75%, 0.15%, 0.33%, and 0.11%

Platinumj · 11/11/07, 12:41 PM

My question would be for someone like myself. The best main hand I have is the Syphon of the Nathrezim. So once the patch drops I'm trying to figure out what my best spec would be. I was thinking 11/20/30 that way I don't have to worry about which weapon type I'm using, I get 2 point DD plus 10% AP. I just don't know if that is more or less then what I'd get by running either 11/28/22 with 5/5 mace spec, or 11/27/22 with only 4/5 mace spec getting 2/2 WE and 2/2 DD.

Anyone have the same issue and done the math into this?

Tosa · 11/11/07, 1:14 PM

Originally Posted by Platinumj

My question would be for someone like myself. The best main hand I have is the Syphon of the Nathrezim. So once the patch drops I'm trying to figure out what my best spec would be. I was thinking 11/20/30 that way I don't have to worry about which weapon type I'm using, I get 2 point DD plus 10% AP. I just don't know if that is more or less then what I'd get by running either 11/28/22 with 5/5 mace spec, or 11/27/22 with only 4/5 mace spec getting 2/2 WE and 2/2 DD.

Anyone have the same issue and done the math into this?

If you're using maces, you'll lose less dps with AP-hemo than Mace Spec-hemo.

songster · 11/11/07, 3:17 PM

Originally Posted by Platinumj

My question would be for someone like myself. The best main hand I have is the Syphon of the Nathrezim. So once the patch drops I'm trying to figure out what my best spec would be. I was thinking 11/20/30 that way I don't have to worry about which weapon type I'm using, I get 2 point DD plus 10% AP. I just don't know if that is more or less then what I'd get by running either 11/28/22 with 5/5 mace spec, or 11/27/22 with only 4/5 mace spec getting 2/2 WE and 2/2 DD.

Anyone have the same issue and done the math into this?

Read back a couple of pages. The best build with maces seems to be 11/20/30 - though the situational use of BF on multiple targets means 11/21/29 is likely to edge it out in practice.

Leoki · 11/11/07, 5:10 PM

Would the 11/2x/2x build be better than say 0/20/41 in all cases? I myself do not have any swords but i have syphon and boundless agony(i am mutilate specc atm and use syphon for arena with arena offhand).
I was thinking once you reach a certain amount of agi and ap and if you have high ap party buffs with enhance shaman and so on if the sub talents would be better. I could then use the dagger in offhand, the extra armor ignore from boundless would bring me close to 0 armor on some bosses.
Since hemo is only 35 energy cycles dont seem to be a problem. This specc would give the biggest white damage possible and thats what rogue damage is but would that be enough. I have 600 agi and 1930 ap unbuffed. I know it has already been said 11/2x/2x is generaly better but doesnt the sub specc become better with more ap and agi?

ekval · 11/11/07, 5:13 PM

Originally Posted by Leoki

Would the 11/2x/2x build be better than say 0/20/41 in all cases? I myself do not have any swords but i have syphon and boundless agony(i am mutilate specc atm and use syphon for arena with arena offhand).
I was thinking once you reach a certain amount of agi and ap and if you have high ap party buffs with enhance shaman and so on if the sub talents would be better. I could then use the dagger in offhand, the extra armor ignore from boundless would bring me close to 0 armor on some bosses.
Since hemo is only 35 energy cycles dont seem to be a problem. This specc would give the biggest white damage possible and thats what rogue damage is but would that be enough. I have 600 agi and 1930 ap unbuffed. I know it has already been said 11/2x/2x is generaly better but doesnt the sub specc become better with more ap and agi?

You are missing too many good Assassination talents while going deeper in Subtlely tree (Malice, Murder, RS, Ruthlessness).

Faytte · 11/11/07, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Seeten

I shiv Mind Numb onto healers on Solarian?

I shiv Mind Numb onto the casters in Mag's lair?

I imagine any other healer that isnt immune to mind numb and heals/casts something nasty will get a shiv, too.

You dont need to shiv the priest on Solarean. Its a slow enough heal and they are also stun able. Kick one heal, stun the other heal, repeat.

Terala · 11/12/07, 2:17 AM

Hello Everyone,
First of all i want to say this is my First poste and i am not that good at english especially at the grammer so i hope you can overlook this

Somone above stated that at some point the AP increase on the gear gets smaller while you can sum up other stats more efficiently. i wanted to know where you think this point will come up? atm i am geard mostly t4 with 2 items TK, 2 items Hyjal which results in 27% crit 232 Hit Rateing and 1859 AP, Specced Fist combat.

With the patch come i plan on going for either 11/21/29 or 11/20/30. so I will loose about 5% crit which i need to compensate somehow, i´d like to do this without dropping any AP if Possible.

Assumeing that i´ll have a Fixed Group For ZA and that i´ll be able to snatch what dropps of the table in Hyjal/BT how do you think i should focus on stats given the Spec i am planning to do?

Also i´d like to know if Executnor is in everycase the preferable mainhand enchant once 2.3 is out. Because at the moment i am useing Talon of the Phoenix as MH and dont´t see an upgrade comeing soon. Since i already enchanted it with Mongoose, will it be worthwhile to replace the enchant?

Eracia64 · 11/12/07, 3:04 AM

I got a few questions, It may already have been said, but since here is 35 pages I dont have a clear overview.

I'm playing a rogue, mainly doing pvp, and with this upcoming patch I am starting to wonder, what would do most damage; a Sinister Strike or a Hemo?

I used to be 8/31/22, now 17/44/0. Reason I changed was that i felt the damage from hemo was too low compared to the sinister strike, but if the hemo damage gets buffed then the hybrid combat-sub build might be able to do the same damage as Combat-assa?

Further more, what is the optimal dps cycle for a combat sword spec? And combat dagger?

Vesper · 11/12/07, 8:34 AM

Originally Posted by Leoki

Would the 11/2x/2x build be better than say 0/20/41 in all cases? [...]

Does your classleader allow you to spec full subtlety build then?

Hanos · 11/12/07, 8:49 AM

For all the people asking about certain spec/gear combos, have you checked the spreadsheet? There is an excellent tool available for you to plug in your gear and play with the different specs. At this point the highest DPS Spec for Swords appears to be 4/5 Sword Spec, 2/2 Weapon Expertise, 2/2 Dirty Deeds, for Maces you are better off with Deadliness then with Mace Spec (although Mace Spec is nice for PvP), and I don't think there is a level of gear where Shadowstep will pass the value of the Assassination talents.

Rerox · 11/12/07, 9:13 AM

Originally Posted by Hanos

For all the people asking about certain spec/gear combos, have you checked the spreadsheet? There is an excellent tool available for you to plug in your gear and play with the different specs.

And here you go with the URL (final Version of 2.3 Sheet available): http://rogue.raidcal.com/RogueDPS_2_3_0_3.xls

Platinumj · 11/12/07, 9:36 AM

It doesn't include Syphon

I guess switching in another mace will round about work too.

Katane · 11/12/07, 10:00 AM

Some more data on the 11/28/22 vs. 11/27/23 question, "Which is more valuable: a point of Sword Spec or a point of the new Dirty Deeds?"

Methodology:
I went through the WWS data for a recent night in Hyjal, and for each boss I computed the benefit of one point of sword spec and the theoretical benefit of one point of DD, if I had it. (I'm currently 11/28/22).

SS: I simply divided the number of sword spec procs by 5 (keeping the decimal) and multiplied by average mainhand damage. Normally it's hard to tease apart mainhand from offhand damage, but fortunately pre-2.3 Hemo = normal white hit. The product of those two numbers is a reasonable approximation of the contribution from SS.

DD: For Dirty Deeds I added up rupture and hemo damage, then multiplied by 0.035 (i.e 35% times 10%). That product is approximately what a single point of DD could be expected to contribute.

Lastly, I divided the DD number by the SS number, to get a percentage of how much the Dirty Deeds would have contributed relative to Sword Spec, point for point. The results:

Rage: 57% (i.e., DD would have been 57% as good as SS for this fight)
Anatheron: 86%
Kaz'rogal: 76%
Azgalor: 89%

It should be noted that on Azgalor I was on Doomguard duty the entire fight.

Edit: Oops. I forgot to include crit rate in the sword spec estimate. Numbers above are now revised.

Also, in terms of overall impact on dps, moving a point do DD in those 4 fights would have lowered overall dps by: 0.75%, 0.15%, 0.33%, and 0.11%

Im in a guild who has BT and Hyjal on farm, I also have almost full tier6 and both warglaves, im a lil behind on the hemo thing but overrall is the dps more then say combat cookie cutter like we been doing for months now? Also what rotation would yall use on a boss hemo wise?