I think that would only be true if you weren't on full debuff uptime. If you aren't fully utilising all the charges (multiple Hemo Rogues, or some other situation) then it should just be a flat net gain?

As songster said, it is a PvP, small group, or solo change. In a raid (either 10-man or 25-man) the charges will be consumed too quickly for any gain. With two or more Hemo rogues, the charges are still either being a. consumed, or b. overwritten. None of them are actually being "not used".

Actually, in case "b" currently, one charge is being "not used": the one which should be consumed by the overwriting hemo. If there is a hemo debuff on the target and the target gets re-hemod, then that hemo (a physical attack) should gain damage from the debuff. Currently, it doesn't. In the future it will.

Interestingly, this (a) won't be enough to make a difference, and (b) is (I think) already modeled properly in the spreadsheet using the "Hemo" debuff option for the boss. Thus, while you may see a very slight increase in practice, the theoretical results in the spreadsheet already point to th way it should it have been working all along.

As an aside, regarding deep sub. tree changes: I agree with the poster who said that it doesn't matter how much they buff deep sub. as long as Dual Wield Spec and Relentless Strikes are considered essential raiding talents. With the Hemo nerf/Sinister Calling buff being essentially a wash if you pick up both talents, I still don't think raiding rogues will go deep sub.

There's been considerable thought that Shadowstep would actually be a massive boost to damage on mobile fights, but it's hard to model "not running around" in a spreadsheet, especially with fights like voidreaver where you can hold a book you're reading with one hand and mash the 2 3 and 4 buttons with your other. Fights like Al'ar, Solarian, Kael'thas, etc, would all benefit from teleportation goodness, and there may even be room for cheatdeath's ability to "20k hit? what 20k hit?" and keep you in there, especially if you _know_ there will be one massive killing blow (that you'll avoid) and _know_ there won't be another one coming in, say, 4 seconds.

All in all, I'm extremely annoyed but also kind of excited - I've really wanted to be shadowstep for a while, and maybe this will be my change/forced opportunity.

(which is also good because they seem to be buffing shadowstep in every single patch)

Slight tangent here, but does seeing yet another talent being removed from Prep seem like more duct tape on something that is just falling apart anyway? I can't remember the order or exact reasons for all the changes, but I do know...

- Blind: Double-Blind in Arena was nerfed
- Cloak of Shadows: Having two of these in Arena was also too much for caster-types

And now Adrenaline Rush? Would it surprise anyone else to hear someone saying that having 2 Improved Sprints or the ability to Shadowstep onto a player three times in a minute is too much? It just seems that there's something functionally wrong with this talent all together that needs to be addressed rather than having it say "Reset all of your cooldowns... oh except this one... and this one... oh, and this one too..."

I would say maybe push it further down the tree, but that doesn't address their concerns about it affecting Blind and Cloak of Shadows. Or maybe it could be reworked all together to significantly reduce the cooldowns of all your evasive abilities (Vanish, Evasion, Sprint, Cloak of Shadows)?

I'm just curious to hear your guys' thoughts. Prep was a big motivator for Arena rogues for quite a while, and it's slowly losing appeal, nerf by nerf.

EDIT: Left pointed out that this was primarily a PVE thread. Sorry, disregard this post. I'll discuss elsewhere.

I tend to agree with you on this, although this probably isn't the right thread for it (this being a PvE thread). Prep was a perfectly balanced talent until arenas came along and so did CD resetting... now they are struggling to make it something other than ungodly powerful.

I am pretty sure the reason why they didn't revert the change back to 125% hemo is that they want people to go deeper into the tree and not just stop at Hemo.

The problem with that was already mentioned above, going past hemo doesn't gain you talents worth the dps you lose in the other trees.

Well, I would say it has to do with the damage output capability Hemo currently has. 11/2x/2x is very competitive in a raid, and brings a marginal amount of utility that Combat doesn't. With only 2-3 rogues in a 25-man, there was little point for any of them to be Combat.

Someone also speculated that it was to discourage tri-speccing.

I'm just wondering all of a sudden, how the mechanics from Sinister Calling's hemo buff will work..
110% dmg + 10% = 120%
or
110% dmg * 110% dmg = 121%?

Difference is only 1%, but still my bet is on the 121% version, since it would be much easier to implement.


Oh, and +42 damage on a hit may seem marginal, but adding 420 damage to other hits definitely isn't marginal. The hemo debuff deals between 30 and 50% as much damage as the main attack itself, that ain't marginal at all.

Modified my spreadsheet to reflect the latest changes, and repeated this test again:

Also added the following additional specs:

10) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 11/9/41, [Talon of Azshara], [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]
11) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 20/0/41, same weapons
12) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 0/20/41, same weapons

Note that the gear used as a base has changed slightly (I've gotten upgrades). All builds use the 5s/5r cycle (except dagger builds, but I've skipped over those since they haven't changed). Here are the results:

1) My base theoretical DPS is 1462.43.
2) Skipped, hasn't changed.
3) 1383.80 (-5.38%) before the debuff, 1493.28 (+2.11%) with the debuff counted.
4) 1372.71 (-6.13%) before the debuff, 1481.78 (+1.32%) with the debuff counted.
5) 1337.76 (-8.52%) before the debuff, 1447.25 (-1.04%) with the debuff counted.
6) Skipped, redundant.
7) Skipped, redundant.
8) 1344.43 (-8.07%) before the debuff, 1453.08 (-0.64%) with the debuff counted.
9) Skipped, redundant.
10) 1292.76 (-11.60%) before the debuff, 1404.41 (-4.17%) with the debuff counted.
11) 1268.35 (-13.27%) before the debuff, 1376.99 (-5.84%) with the debuff counted.
12) 1281.47 (-12.37%) before the debuff, 1376.82 (-5.85%) with the debuff counted.

Conclusions:

In personal DPS, Hemo builds are strictly inferior to combat, by a more significant margin than before. Hemo+swords still comes out slightly ahead of combat swords after factoring in the debuff, but it is clearly not going to be worthwhile to have more than one Hemo rogue in a raid. Additionally, if the Hemo rogue doesn't have swords, it seems like it won't be worthwhile for him to be Hemo at all. It stands to reason, based on the scaling of the ability, that at higher gear levels than mine, Hemo will fall even further behind and be obsolete (roughly in T6 content). Finally, Shadowstep builds are still universally terrible.

Questions and comments are welcome.

Going deep subtley also discourages speccing the combat weapon talents (hello mace rogues) which a lot of people have been complaining about. Couple this with the AR/Prep nerf and you move rogues into two distinct camps...those who spec maces for control or those who go deep subtlety for "burst". I put quotations around that, because I'm not sure the gain in burst damage will be worthwhile enough to offset losing other talents. This is, of course, only applicable in pvp, so is a bit of an offtopic in regards to this post.

I'll go out on a limb and speculate that the hemo and ar nerfs aren't aimed at rogues in general, but at arena mace rogues. Your pve tri-spec didn't include prep and never would, hemo is just a collateral casualty in the general complaining that is the arenas.

I'm a seasoned rogue that's new to theorycrafting, so please bear with me here. What exactly does it mean for a build to be "raid viable"? Is this purely subjective or is there some science that narrows this to something quantifiable?

Since 2.3 I've tried different Shadowstep builds, and of all the ones I tried I like 11/9/41 the best. At Kara+some Heroic level gear, with Season 1 Fist (with +15 agi) + Season 2 OH dagger (with Mongoose), and Bloodlust Brooch and Hourglass of the Unraveller for tinkets, I get pretty good DPS against bosses compared to my combat dagger build in raids up to SSC. What confuses me is that some might think this is weak, but when I try other specs, specifically pure Combat Daggers (with Malchezeen MH w/ Mongoose), my DPS is only slightly better (not significantly better as the math would suggest). I do basic 1s/5r cycles (with the 2pc T4 bonus), pop Shadowstep every chance I get, and most of my gem slots are +hit gems (I have my hit rating around +240). And I see the coming changes in 2.3.2 so far as a buff to such a build.

Considering how much easier it is to be competitive in PvP with this build, I feel it's worth the DPS cost. But we're here to discuss PvE so I'll reiterate my question. At what point is a build considered a waste for raiding? If my guild is successful, I don't see why a build wouldn't be. I look forward to the response.

(Sorry if this belongs in another/its own thread I just thought that deep Sub builds get bashed a little more than they deserve.)

That's basically what got this thread going in the first place, proving how a hemo build (and now parhaps even a deep-sub build) could be competitive to the standard combat swords 19/42/0 or 20/41/0 specs. If it is, you can basically call it viable.
That is, provided that you take the hemo debuff into your calculations of course, since that's what hemo is about in PvE. This thread basically boils down to that, would taking a hemo-rogue benefit a raid, or would it be a third leg or a fifth wheel or whatever you like to call it.

Mind you, this thread is all theorycrafting. A combat swords build just is a lot easier to play, since it only consists of button mashing. Hemo is more about button timing, though for 25 men raids that may no longer be applicable, since charges will get used before your next hemo anyway, so buttonmashers might find it easy to play in 25 mens raids as well.

How things turn out practically?
A skilled rogue, whichever spec, will simply put more damage (raid or personal, depends on spec ofc) to the table, than the avarage rogue. The differences between specs are so small at the moment, that losing 10 seconds of uptime because you have to sneeze or take a sip of your coffee will put you behind on the meters.

I think the general consensus here is that while it is somewhat subjective, rogues really have much less leeway in their specs than other classes.

The reason is that rogues bring little utility to a raid beyond DPS. What little utility we do provide (sap/blind, stuns, interrupts) is spec-independant. The one exception to this would be agro-wipes, but talented and untalented agro wipes are similar enough it is hardly worth comparing.

Thus, being called to DPS we can rarely justify dropping our DPS... doing so won't (generally) provide additional utility to the raid. To be "raid viable", therefore, a build must do competitive DPS in most boss fights. What "competitive" means hasn't truly been defined, but I personally think performing within 5% of the DPS of the theoretical best DPS build is a good target. On many fights, I believe the best warriors, shaman, etc., can perform within 5-10% of the top rogue DPSers, DPS-wise. Since those classes bring additional utility, if a rogue in a specific spec falls behind them on DPS then that rogue has, in general, lost "raid viability." If he's not needed anymore in the raid, his spec isn't viable.

Since the spreadsheet models Shadowstep builds at as much as 12% behind combat builds, that is putting a deep-sub build below the threshold where it would be better to bring another warrior/enh. shaman than a Shadowstep rogue. To put it in perspective, Mutilate is only 5-6% behind and almost no rogues go that route anymore, despite it being a thrilling spec to play and having some very nice surviveability benefits (+20% to incoming heals, anyone?). I was mutilate for one week, and I got yelled at on Mag for getting outdpsed by a couple of our hunters... I was 4th place on DPS. For my raid, if I wasn't on top with the other rogue I wasn't worth having there.

I would love to see some WWS numbers from a rogue who has tried Shadowstep in a full raid (unfortunately, I'm not into T5/T6 content and can't be the guy to do it) and how it compares to other attempts/rogues in the raid. Something from a high-mobility fight might justify it to the rest of the raid.

I tested 0/40/21 spec with same conditions that Vulajins use with spreadsheet and get 1607.80DPS.
It came par with 20/41/0. Only -0.07% difference or 1dps.
If dps is so close why noone ever talk about it or take it as viable option.

So you think going 41 points into sub will leave you with enough points to still put talent points into Combat/Assassination to make the build viable? No shot!

As for your calculations, yes obviously Hemo is going to actually hit a lot harder than before even with the 15% nerf. The 10% overall buff and the hemo charge along with more ap/agil/crit from the new talents make it hit a great dealer harder, but at a huge PvE cost of sustained damage. It's not a viable PvE spec, don't bother please...

19/42 or 20/41 = The best PvE spec end of story.
PvP is obviously still up for debate due to heavy AR nerf, but I think I still enjoy having prep for the snare and survivabilty portion of Arenas.

If this is actually true of the difference between a normal static DPS rotation between Shadowstep and other builds, then Shadowstep should be quite a bit ahead in terms of actual raid performance since being able to SS gets you that extra 10 seconds of uptime on any fight with even a little bit of movement.

edit: speaking as a raid leader, Cheat Death is a raid relevant talent. I'm sure all of you guys and all of the rogues in your guilds never do retarded things like stand in Flamestrike or get cleaved or eat Whirlwinds or whatever, but mine certainly do, and dying is pretty much the worst thing that can happen to a rogue's damage output. If it turns out that a X/X/41 spec is even within about 10% DPS of a 19/42 on a stationary fight, I'll be pushing my rogues to try it out.

You actually hit on the difference in your post:

Slightly better is still better. Your job is DPS, as much as possible. I could do "slightly" less DPS if I didn't flask, food buff, pop haste pots, etc. However, if I am in a raid to DPS, my goal is to do as much as possible without pulling aggro, dying, or killing someone else. Also, what is "slightly"? Right now my theoretical DPS is somewhere around 1900-1950. Is slightly less 5% (95 DPS), 10% (190 DPS)? My attitude, especially with progression content, has always been, you buff to the max all the time, every time, if you feel you don't need to buff, you shouldn't be rolling/bidding on gear upgrades, because you apparently don't need the stats.

Raid Viable - Doing the maximum amount of DPS possible through personal DPS, non-personal DPS through raid buffs, or providing some other benefit to the raid to make up for lost DPS.

Arms Warriors and Enhancement Shaman are "Raid Viable" because they provide more DPS for the raid then they lose by choosing that spec, aka 4 rogues and a Arms Warrior or Enhancement Shaman will do more damage then a group of 5 rogues.

There is no ideal PVP & PVE Spec, if you want to be competitive in arenas, you need to respec. However, this depends on what you are referring to as PVP, if you mean BGs... spec really doesn't matter, if you mean Arenas... at what level 1300, 1500, 1700, 2000, 2400?

After checking your armory, I think the issue or disconnect is coming from your experience/level of progression. Not to sound like a jerk, but at your level of progression you could honestly raid with almost no talents and it wouldn't matter, not to mention 10 mans are a horrible judge of skill/talent build etc. For example, I could go in with a group that had a feral druid, enhancement shaman, Arms Warrior, and Survival Hunter, with no talent points and do more DPS then going in with a 20/41/0 combat build in a group with a pally tank and a bunch of casters. The synergies make that much of a difference.

When we say a "Raid Viable Spec", I personally mean within 1-2% of maximum possible total DPS. Aka if I could spec Combat and do 1500 DPS, or Spec Tri-Spec Hemo and do 1450 DPS but add 100 DPS to the raid, then I am really doing 1550 DPS by being in the raid, and it is a raid viable spec. However, if by specing Hemo I do 1350 DPS and add 100 raid DPS... then it isn't raid viable because I am losing 3%+ over a Combat Rogue... there is no reason to do it. Does 3% matter when you are doing Kara, 5 Mans and non-timed ZA... no, does 3% matter when doing BT for the first kills, you bet it does. Right now you are a long way behind the progression curve and the content has been nerfed more times then I can count now.


Short answer: For you, "Raid Viable" is a not a real concern on the same level as a BT level rogue, especially for 5 mans, synergy or the lack of synergy makes a bigger difference then any possible spec changes.

Thanks for responding! I certainly understand this point on viability now, this makes perfect sense, in terms of viability as what is expected vs. what we actually bring to the table. In the case of us rogues, making sure that what we do bring (DPS) is strong is what makes a spec viable, especially when considering other classes that could provide similar value. Pretty concise, thanks again.

As a side point, I don't see the same drastic difference the spreadsheet reports in practice between shadowstep and combat (-12% behind combat) using 11/9/41 with the setup I enjoy. I am going to wait until 2.3.2 comes out (many other changes may come before it's actually live) then run Gruuls/Mag and compare my Damage and DPS just on boss fights with my classic 17/41/5 combat dagger build and my new favorite 11/9/41 subtlety build. I don't expect to win with 11/9/41, but I would expect to see a smaller margin of difference (around ~-5%). Even at -5% it may still not be acceptable to most guilds, but perhaps the knowledge that the difference isn't so drastic (if it is in fact not so drastic, I've yet to run actual tests) will bring more rogues the joy of Shadowstep into their lives whilst raiding.

It'll be fun.

Replying to Hanos post #1471, I think you're right, the fact that I'm not as progressed means that differences will be less drastic. And you're right, that is source of disconnect because I can only compare to what I play through, in my own skin, at my own level of progression. Thanks for replying, very good stuff!

As a note on the Cheat Death: I rarely suffer death from direct hits, but my health does have a tendency to drop extremely low on AOE's, so my personal preference is 3 Enveloping Shadows/1 Cheat Death, but I can imagine how other rogues would switch those two, from seeing other content or having a slightly different playing style.

Can you please stop reposting the same exact thing into this thread every 10 or so posts?

"Don't bother please..." and "end of story" posts aren't condusive of discussion, they're just useless posting.