Oops, yes I agree that deadliness is much better than mace spec for a pve mace hemo build since the 10 weapon skill costs you 5 talent points instead of 2.
I disagree about deadliness maces being better than 11/28/22 since only about 14-15% of a hemo build's damage comes from hemo. Even if you could get a 7% damage increase on your hemo's that still only plays out to a 1% total increase in dps while you are giving up sword spec and 10 weapon skill for 8% more AP.
Originally Posted by Fugazor
Is the weapon skill still limited (more than 365 will give you nothing)?
All Blizzard posts and patch notes point to no. Just like defense, weapon skill gives you small and steady returns on every point. I believe that you are referring to the glancing blow mitigation that weapon skill used to give?
Notes overall: This was my first time playing a 1s/5r rotation after running 5s/5r for almost a year (and simply 5s in WoW classic) so my cycling was crap. I improved it as the night went on, but I was routinely screwing up and dropping S&D for way longer than I should have. No enhancement shaman tonight (although I did have WF and usually SoE). I don't have a Dragonspine, and my miss rate is ~3%.
Notes: This was a... Sub-par group we were running with, and I had the wrong trinket equipped. Probably not a good fight to judge things, but I figure I'd toss it out here for data. No Dragonspine dropped, again. I also haven't been to Gruul in the three weeks prior so no good reference.
Notes: Here (Wow Web Stats) is the WWS of the last time I was at Mag, two weeks ago, as combat. Then as now, no enhance shaman (just a WF/SoE bot). Other differences: I have added a Mongoose enchant to my OH and a Thundering Skyfire (over a +24 AP Swift) metagem. I did have Leader of the Pack on the Combat try, and I was not on cube duty, which I obviously was tonight. Consumable use was the same (major agility), except that I chugged 3 Haste pots tonight.
I'm prepared to suggest the majority of the DPS difference is from cube duty vs not, plus I (strangely) had a 13% crit rate on Hemorrhage. I felt my cycling was decent on Mag. Any play suggestions I will of course take. This fight (just because of cube duty) is not a true accurate comparison. Void Reaver is tomorrow (blech, no rupture) and we'll see what happens there.
That said, it felt anecdotally like I was doing considerably less personal DPS. How much RDPS is the Hemo debuff? If nobody has done the math already I'll do it myself tomorrow, it's 1 AM here and I need sleep. I'm thinking that without a Dragonspine it may not be worth the spec switch. Without that big white damage boost, Serrated Blades can't compete with all the yellow damage boosts in deep combat.
That's my theory, anyway.
"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long."
-Rorschach, Watchmen
Thank you for taking the time to post your logs Kanokai. I have never had cube duty so I do not know, but it seems that it would be about the same as getting hit by watery grave every 60 seconds of a fight - aka a lot of dps lost. I believe that someone pointed out that your deadly poison will still be ticking so WWS will still count that time as 'dps time'.
I would like to see additional comparable runs of hemo vs combat with and without DST, hopefully with consistent group buffs and the same gear equipped for both runs. It might also help to get used to the 5r/1s rotation before going in for the official logging session if you feel uncomfortable with it. I am hesitant to draw any conclusions from Kanokai's logs besides the possibility that DST might be required for 11/28/22 to be competitive with deep combat due to some discrepancies between the two runs. We will have to analyze more logs to see.
Rough calculations have placed the raid dps contribution of the hemo debuff at around 85 dps. This does not include glancing blows, armor, critical strikes and abilities that have damage multipliers, but instead assumes that the first two and the second two about cancel eachother out. Perhaps tomorrow I can do some more exact calculations on the hemo debuff (or if someone else has them?).
I think that hemo and prep are worth more than aggression and adrenaline rush, but that is definately a very viable build. I am a little bit worried that without surprise attacks hemo will outperform sinister strike and if you refer to post #10 in the thread you can see the math on why adrenaline rush is not worth that much on long fights (with your build you can expect it to add around 6k damage on average assuming a 5-10minute fight. Situationally it will be very good, for example it is excellent to use on phase 2 of Leotheras the Blind).
Another thing to note is that you will not be able to maintain a good 5r/1s cycle with SS as your primary attack and no CP.
Glaskopft, this thread is purely about the pve viability of a hemo build even if we might tip our hats to whatever pvp viability might be brought along for the ride. It is my hope to prove that bringing along at least one rogue with 11/28/22 is superior to all of a guild's rogues speccing deep combat.
I'm prepared to suggest the majority of the DPS difference is from cube duty vs not, plus I (strangely) had a 13% crit rate on Hemorrhage. I felt my cycling was decent on Mag. Any play suggestions I will of course take. This fight (just because of cube duty) is not a true accurate comparison. Void Reaver is tomorrow (blech, no rupture) and we'll see what happens there.
That said, it felt anecdotally like I was doing considerably less personal DPS. How much RDPS is the Hemo debuff? If nobody has done the math already I'll do it myself tomorrow, it's 1 AM here and I need sleep. I'm thinking that without a Dragonspine it may not be worth the spec switch. Without that big white damage boost, Serrated Blades can't compete with all the yellow damage boosts in deep combat.
Prepare to be let down on VR because the bleed and poison immunity is a killer. Using 11/28/22 I was 225 DPS behind a similarly geared 19/42 Combat Swords rogue on that fight last night, the main differences being that he's using a Gladiator's Slicer MH and I am still stuck with a Vindicator's, although I have a DST and he does not. The worst part is that we wiped at 1% on our first attempt and the difference in damage between my gimped Hemo spec and a combat build would have let us down him that first try.
Granted, this is the worst boss I can think of to test out a bleed-dependent spec on but I was disappointed enough at contributing to the slow dps that I respec'd back to 20/41 between killing VR and heading over to SSC. In retrospect I wish I'd stuck with the spec to see how it worked out for me on SSC trash and Lurker but I was feeling neutered after placing so low on the charts in TK and I want to stick with what I know while we're still learning these bosses. Maybe when I get a better mainhand I'll give this another shot on our Gruul/Magtheridon day. I will say that I did a bunch of AV earlier in the week and liked the spec a lot in that setting.
I found this thread yesterday afternoon, but I really wish I would have found it a day or two earlier so I could try this spec out in SSC. TK really wasn't an optimal place to start using this spec, because my guild has melee on Al'ar adds only, and we all know how lame Void Reaver is. Solarion was a cry moment because our raid leader went nazi and stole the melee groups WF. This spec seems like it would be amazing with the whole 1s/5r cycle, but for me last night it seemed kinda hard to keep the cycle down as well as I could with a full combat build. I dunno it just seemed like this build was lacking something, what it is, I have no idea yet.
Anyways, here's some WWS Logs from last nights TK trip and Hyjal. Keep in mind this was my first time trying this spec and I might have to change my cycle a bit (1s/5r -> 2 or 3s/5r) due to not having combat potency (Seems like it makes a big difference to me). I haven't got many logs to compare with yet so hopefully next week I can get more data and really see how this spec compares to Full combat.
Those two Anetheron sheets might be a little wierd because on the kill I had a BM hunter, and about 1.5 LESS unbuffed crit because in last nights TK I picked up Tier 5 shoulders and the amazing melee dps Kael ring, Band of the Ranger General or what not. As well as last night I was with a Feral druid and no BM hunter. Sadly our enhancement shaman respec'd elemental, so we lost UR and all that good stuff.
All in all I think this could be a viable spec given more time to play around with it, even if it's Trash DPS sucks. Who cares about trash anyways. Afk time Kidding of course.
I have tested the 11/21/29 and the 11/28/22 specs a ton throughout BC. The Hemo specs do seem to be closing the gap but they are not there yet. Getting the mace from BT would help or even the legendary sword (hundreds of rogues just threw up at the thought of a Hemo rogue getting thsi weapon...lol). At my gear level (300 hit/1802 AP/23% crit) Hemo still isn't really better.
I think once you reach around 2000 AP and 25 crit unbuffed the 11/28/22 spec may be viable. I'm losing about 80 DPS with the Hemo build however all my testing has been done without a shaman so generally you would get less CP procs without Heroism.
I really enjoy the Hemo spec but untill it can compete I'll stick to combat.
I have tested the 11/21/29 and the 11/28/22 specs a ton throughout BC. The Hemo specs do seem to be closing the gap but they are not there yet. Getting the mace from BT would help or even the legendary sword (hundreds of rogues just threw up at the thought of a Hemo rogue getting thsi weapon...lol). At my gear level (300 hit/1802 AP/23% crit) Hemo still isn't really better.
I think once you reach around 2000 AP and 25 crit unbuffed the 11/28/22 spec may be viable. I'm losing about 80 DPS with the Hemo build however all my testing has been done without a shaman so generally you would get less CP procs without Heroism.
I really enjoy the Hemo spec but untill it can compete I'll stick to combat.
If you're only 80 DPS behind a combat build then the Hemo debuff should be closing most of that gap, right? Or were you already factoring that into your raid dps contribution?
If you're only 80 DPS behind a combat build then the Hemo debuff should be closing most of that gap, right? Or were you already factoring that into your raid dps contribution?
That is factored in already.
An additional note that I found to be true with a combat Hemo build is....between the 11/28/22 spec and the 11/21/29 spec. They both shine but are situational in the sense that they depend on what raid buffs you will be getting. If you raid with 3 pallys (to get the tinity of buffs) and also have a DPS warrior and enhancement shaman, I found the 11/21/29 spec to out perform the 11/28/22 spec. The 8% talent affects buffs to so the additional AP through these buffs outdoes the sword spec/weapon exp. If your not getting these buffs then the 11/28/22 has a slight edge.
Anyhow, I would love to see what rotations you guys used for 1400+ dps with hemo on Morogrim for example. Do you use GS? etc.
I hope you're not referring to my post, because I am combat daggers. (If one of these WWS links I didn't click shows 1400+ with hemo on morogrim just ignore me.) I posted mostly to show the wide variance on morogrim with only 2 graves difference, and to provide an example of what can happen with optimal buffs.
I'll edit my post to make it clear that I wasn't using the spec that this thread is about.
So i have respecced to 11/21/29 with Dragonstrike and we took down Morogrim last night. I was pleasantly surprised by the damage output and how comparable it is to a combat build for PvE.
Haste and Armor reduction are huge factors in this build. I have Warp Spring Coil and dusted off the Icon of Unyielding Courage for the 30 extra HR for Morogrim last night and at times had a total extra armor reduction of 2160.
It seems like using an off spec just adds utility tot he raid. THe hemo debuff was getting eaten up by the melee and it seems like a good boost to overall raid DPS. I am not going to lie, I got laughs at first when the debuff appeared on trash mobs. But I stayed at the top of the charts all night as usual. On Morogrim I pulled 1156 with two graves. Seems like Hemo is a very viable spec for raiding.
P.S. - Dueled some people after the raid. Wow. No burst damage. Took forever to kill someone.
In a odd coincidence of luck and desire to push beyond the normal, I actually have been using the 11/28/22 build since hitting 70. Being essentially in all Assassination gear, my numbers are not very high, but I continually top the meters in Heroics. A couple things I find key to making this shine, as it is already a lot more 'enjoyable' than the standard combat most of us use.
Keeping two activateable AP boosting trinkets is HUGE. Until you are in the upper echelon of trinkets, do not pass up on the ability to raise your AP right before firing off Rupture.
Get a druid in your group! The amount of damage boost by Mangle is just absolutely insane. With less than 1450 unbuffed AP, I get over 300pt/tick Ruptures. That's 2400 non-mitigateable damage. Eviscerate is not even close to that on a consistent basis. It has to crit to even be close.
[Rogue]: Rupture Formula Is a good bit of data we tossed around here. I absolutely would not do this without Sword Specialization, however. The 0.1 speed difference of the slowest mace just doesn't kickback enough damage into Hemo to out do Sword Spec damage lost. I admit fist may be on par or even better, but I'd need to see some more data there.
EDIT: I didn't mention it implicitly, but the point of my post was to speak to the idea of "when" this build is viable for use with respect to gearing up. I would contend, based on where my toon is at now and his results, that any relatively good rogue can have excellent results with this as soon as they are in 70 set pieces. No need to wait until fully Kara'd out in epics. That's not to say it will necessarily hold up against our standard combat builds at this gear level, but that's not our true goal, it's to be viable for use as primary DPS.
I have tested the 11/21/29 and the 11/28/22 specs a ton throughout BC. The Hemo specs do seem to be closing the gap but they are not there yet. Getting the mace from BT would help or even the legendary sword (hundreds of rogues just threw up at the thought of a Hemo rogue getting thsi weapon...lol). At my gear level (300 hit/1802 AP/23% crit) Hemo still isn't really better.
I think once you reach around 2000 AP and 25 crit unbuffed the 11/28/22 spec may be viable. I'm losing about 80 DPS with the Hemo build however all my testing has been done without a shaman so generally you would get less CP procs without Heroism.
I really enjoy the Hemo spec but untill it can compete I'll stick to combat.
I don't really get how you expect us to take you seriously when you say that you have tested this build yet provide no statistics, group makeups, gear setups and even admit that there was no shaman in your group. You then throw out a random number of where you 'feel' that rogues will be viable with hemo with no math or statistics and then say that you were 80DPS behind combat again with nothing to back it up. Finally, it has been pointed out in this thread that the main advantage of heroism is not CP, but the extra white damage that the haste provides.
I'm sorry but I have to call this anecdotal evidence and ignore it until there is some meat to back it up.
Originally Posted by Persona
An additional note that I found to be true with a combat Hemo build is....between the 11/28/22 spec and the 11/21/29 spec. They both shine but are situational in the sense that they depend on what raid buffs you will be getting. If you raid with 3 pallys (to get the tinity of buffs) and also have a DPS warrior and enhancement shaman, I found the 11/21/29 spec to out perform the 11/28/22 spec. The 8% talent affects buffs to so the additional AP through these buffs outdoes the sword spec/weapon exp. If your not getting these buffs then the 11/28/22 has a slight edge.
Once again no math or statistics to back up your statements. Did you somehow find an enhancement shaman between your last post and this one to test out 11/21/29 and 11/28/22 to see that the extra 8% AP piled on top of an extra 10%AP (providing a whopping 0.8% more AP) pushes 11/21/29 over 11/28/22 even with no sword spec and no weapon expertise?
I highly doubt it
Originally Posted by Triton
Granted, this is the worst boss I can think of to test out a bleed-dependent spec on but I was disappointed enough at contributing to the slow dps that I respec'd back to 20/41 between killing VR and heading over to SSC. In retrospect I wish I'd stuck with the spec to see how it worked out for me on SSC trash and Lurker but I was feeling neutered after placing so low on the charts in TK and I want to stick with what I know while we're still learning these bosses.
I'm sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience with VR, but realistically that is mathematically the 'worst case scenario' for a build like this. I'm disappointed that you didn't stick with the build for an entire raid ID and gather some interesting stats. Your gear is very similar to mine so I would expect us to get similar results.
We will be tackling VR tonight and I am bracing myself for not being high on the DM (but hoping for the best).
Today I jumped on the Hemo bandwagon as well.
I was quite content with the outcome, better than I expected.
Running 11/28/22 with only 266 hit rating and still two blues (wrist and gloves) and no DST I was comparable to combat skilled. I was running with another rogue in my group, who normally performs a bit better than I do because of better gear (he has DST and S2 mainhand).
The difference on Magtheridon was about where it was before.
On Matheridon, unfortunately both of us didn't manage to stay alive for the entire fight (oh my deeply loved cleaves), but in the 30% try we both were killed at about the same time (wo needs to stop damage on 33% anyway, blast wave and debris is just soo much fun).
After that we went for Void-Reaver, and the evil raid leaders ripped apart our shaman to help the tanks with aggro generation, and this left us rogues with that: Wow Web Stats
I expected to be worse than the combat rogue, may have been "luck" (if you can call such low DPS numbers luck at all).
I had to replace [Malefic Mask of the Shadows] with [Netherblade Facemask] to enable the T4 set bonus which is required to perform a 1s/5r cycle.
I'm still having some problems with this cycle though, quite often I see myself running out of SnD and being unable to refresh it for another 1 or 2 seconds.
Overall, I can't wait to get the DST trinket (only 1 drop so far) and finally replace my [Handgrips of Assassination], hell even my good old [Drake Fang Talisman] to see the full power of that spec. Sword spec should also increase that number when I have enough points for S2 main and off hand.
By the way, the DPS Spreadsheet isn't too far away from my actual DPS, showing me 1186 DPS without the Hemo estimate.
I had to replace [Malefic Mask of the Shadows] with [Netherblade Facemask] to enable the T4 set bonus which is required to perform a 1s/5r cycle.
I'm still having some problems with this cycle though, quite often I see myself running out of SnD and being unable to refresh it for another 1 or 2 seconds.
You will not have 100% SnD uptime with the 1s/5r cycle, there will be a second or so lapse sometimes between when it expires and when you can activate it again (it all depends on how many ruthlessness and relentless strikes procs yo get).
Originally Posted by Vulajin
If you have 3/3 Ruthlessness and Relentless Strikes, a 1s/5r cycle requires you to generate (on average) 4.8 combo points. With Hemo, that costs on average 168 energy. Then you must also spend 20 energy (on average) for your Slice and Dice, and the Rupture is always free. Total cycle cost: 188 energy. With no CP, that's an average of 18.8 seconds. SnD uptime: 92.55%. Rupture uptime: 85.11%.
You can use a 2s/5r cycle to improve your slice and dice uptime but it will hurt your rupture uptime.
I'm sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience with VR, but realistically that is mathematically the 'worst case scenario' for a build like this. I'm disappointed that you didn't stick with the build for an entire raid ID and gather some interesting stats. Your gear is very similar to mine so I would expect us to get similar results.
We will be tackling VR tonight and I am bracing myself for not being high on the DM (but hoping for the best).
Yeah, I probably gave up on the spec a bit too early based on one encounter where I shouldn't have expected to do too well anyway. Looking back at the WWS, I ended up almost exactly matching the DPS of our Mutilate rogue (similarly gimped due to the poison immunity). Part of my problem was that it was my first night in the Eye so I was trying to learn the spec while also learning all of the encounters, and I managed to die to an Orb about 85% of the way through the VR fight when he aggro'd on one of our ranged dps'ers and ran amok for a bit. Other people's WWS parses today, particularly Vladia's, have given me hope again, so I'll give the 11/28/22 another shot on Morogrim tonight and see how I fare there.
Did VR tonight, results as expected. :| ~800 DPS. Still beat a slightly-worse-geared combat rogue, but lost my customary 1st place to a BM hunter. 'course, I had no consumables. Am I wrong in saying that 5s/5e is the best cycle, since you don't have to worry about rupture uptime?
I /rage at sp00n for having better stats than me with similar gear. Oh yes, sp00n, there will be a reckoning.
"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long."
-Rorschach, Watchmen
07/18/07, 8:17 PM
Similar Threads
