@ Ashere: I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here. You get a 20% increase to your special attacks while the mob is under 30%. That's not really what I would call a "very strong boost". Furthermore, you shouldn't be generating enough threat in a build which a) has 2-3 Vanishes every fight and b) does inferior DPS to Combat that aggro is even an issue, especially under 35% where the tank will have a large lead. If you're suggesting over-aggro on fights with a threat wipe, then it should be noted that Combat would still out-dps Deep Sub/Hemo with Dirty Deeds up (5% increased damage assuming 25% of damage = special attacks, number show Deep Sub as ~6-9% behind Combat). Bottom Line: Threat really shouldn't be an issue.

I fail to see why we're still even discussing Deep Sub. Our purpose here is to maximize DPS, not to have some build that "feels good" or "makes you more alert". The numbers back up Combat's superiority, Deep Subtlety is not "viable" if you're interested in doing the maximum potential damage. You don't perform better as Deep Sub because it's a better spec, but instead because of your own deficiencies in playing combat as you say. So I'm not sure while Shadowstep specs are still the object of discussion.

@ Everyone else: Slice n Dice uptime is pretty key. Even though the Gear Spreadsheet recommends 2.9s/5r I've tended to run 4s/5r on most fights just because the extra Rupture damage really isn't very big compared to dropping SnD as frequently as I've tended to, since my keeping a 3s/5r up not only depends on having enough Combat Potency procs but also Coup De Grace procs. The difference between Rupture uptimes is pretty small on the whole.

The spec for maximum DPS has been shown time and time again in this thread. Any ongoing discussion at this point is either redundant or simply to discuss spec differences, advantages, disadvantages, etc.

While these forums are THE place to be if you want some insane number crunchers, there's no harm in some people simply choosing an odd spec, but still coming here with the goal of learning why their DPS will be lower than the Combat swords rogue with 350 hit rating. There's no need to pigeonhole the discussion into one or two specs. In fact, further discussion of Shadowstep could go to show some less-knowledgable players why it's an inferior spec for DPS.

You continue to amaze me with the pure stupidity of some of your posts. Assuming your tank gets a misdirect, and you don't get a crazy crit string, the normal rule of thumb is to vanish when the boss is somewhere around 80-85%. When I was running Trri-Spec Hemo, I found that I never really came close on threat up to that point. Also, any Hemo Spec should include 3.5 min Vanish. Now Dirty Deeds means you are going to do 6-7% more damage when the boss is under 35%...., at this point you have vanished up to 2 times, and you have no burst damage, not to mention your sustained damage is lower then Combat... so you should be well behind the Combat Rogues anyway. In other words, there is not a single fight in the game where you should need to vanish twice in under 3 mins, after the boss is below 50%... the only one that is even close would be Gurtogg.

You are on a roll today... so let's see... skills have various damage to energy ratios... if you increase the damage by 20%, and don't change the energy cost... the relative ranking does what? It stays the same, so if you have 5 Combo points you would Rupture, if you don't have 5 combo points you would Hemo, if you have SS on your bar while Hemo spec'ed, you fail as a rogue.

Wow... just wow... where to start. Crit isn't bad, it is no more unpredictable then Sword Spec or WF, it is actually far more predictable because it is more likely to happen. Also... 3-4%, that means you are looking at increasing your agility by 120-160, implying that you have between 800 and 1070 Agi... I don't think so, raid buffed with all Agi/Hit Gems, with some of the highest Agi gear in the game I have approached 700 Agi, 800+ is a little out of the realm of possibility and 1000+ just isn't possible... so no, at your gear level you might get a little over 2%.

You should have tried to ride the aggro cap before the Sword Spec and WF Nerfs when you could chain proc 4+ hits instantly... So no Crit isn't bad, and there is really no reason you should be riding the aggro cap that close, being over 100% aggro late in the fight when the total aggro is higher is one thing, being over it when a single crit can pulls is just stupid. Also, let's say I am doing 1500 DPS, that means on average I am doing about 750 TPS, now a crit hits for 233%. Based on my last full raid, my highest non crit was 932 and my highest crit was 2113, that means that a crit did 600 more threat, which is far smaller then the minimum gap I should have below pulling aggro.

And to analyze the effect of pulling aggro as waste of rage is just amusing... why in the world would you wait until you pull aggro to Vanish, just do it before, because if you wait until you pull aggro there is a good chance you will wipe the raid.

Basically your post again illustrates that your Kara/Gruul experience hasn't given you a true appreciation for how to play a raiding rogue, you really don't understand how to properly manage aggro, and the mechanics of several things seem to escape you. Spec Shadowstep, have fun with it, just don't try to justify it with anymore stupid arguments, and I am going to reiterate something I said before: No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"

You'll have been doing lower personal dps for the fost 65% of the fight anyway though, so the increase in yellow damage you get for the last 35% will, at most, mean that you're finally doing the same personal dps as the Combat rogues, but starting from a lower base threat level.

In short, Dirty Deeds will not make you pull aggro in at least a 25-person raid environment. It's possible at Karazhan level or in 5-man dungeons though (Hell, you can probably sometimes pull aggro in 5-mans naked and using a level 1 dagger and untalented Sinister Strikes).

Elitist Bloatheadedness is what we call your rambling

Sitting higher on the threatlist then estimated is too easy. Get one raider with Omen while the rest of the raid is on KLH, or the other way round, and you've got yourself unreliable threatmeters. And yes, this could happen to almost any raid. Lag is another issue, with meters updating late.
And you don't want to blow your vanish too soon, ever. If you've never ever reached the near top of the meters twice in a fight, you're basically not performing to the max of your ability. No matter if you're taking down Illidan twice a day then (no idea how to accomplish that on 1 character, but nevertheless), you're underperforming if you need too many vanishes because you blow them too early.

And taking aggro over the tank definitely is a problem, or you have no idea how tanking works at all. Tanks need rage to perform optimally. When you take aggro instead of the tank, that means the tank doesn't take damage, and isn't generating optimal rage, which in turn means that his abilities cost him more rage then he generates, which means gaining more aggor gets harder again.

But, I figure someone being pulled through BT while his guild doesn't notice how little a grasp he actually has about game mechanics, even after about 3 years of playing, would know better. It's that the owners of these forums took the word to a whole new meaning, to which I wouldn't compare you. Otherwise Elitist Jerk would've applied perfectly.

All that rambling you just posted doesn't change the fact that hemo is subpar dps compared to combat.

If you have any threat problems as a rogue you, or your tank, are doing something terribly wrong. I'll admit he was a little harsh, but your comments suggest you are not doing something right. A good rogue should not pull aggro in most raid content. I haven't raided as a rogue in TBC, but these days there are threat meter mods and very well known boss threat mechanics. If you are a good player, you know which bosses you will need to be careful on and adjust your vanish timing accordingly. You should always use your vanish preemptively so that you can maximize your DPS.

Since you are playing hemo. Your personal DPS is lower, and you have a shorter vanish cooldown. There is no excuse for pulling aggro. It's a sure sign of poor play.

Ok, so I run the latest version of Omen, I know my MT's do as well, my meter is going to update in Realtime because... it is my info, the tank might update slow, so worst case scenario with lag... tank is lower on the meter then he really is, I can't think of a situation where lag would result in the tank showing higher then he is, or you being lower. Aka Example Wrong.


You were the one who claimed the potential need for a Prep Vanish, not me. It normally takes me until 85-90% to catch the tank the first time, I may pull ahead a little there, then vanish, and then pop cooldowns. Now if I vanish at 85%, while tied with the tank, that means I would have to essentially do more then 120% of his threat for the rest of the fight... our tanks don't suck, so even at 2k DPS, this isn't an issue except on Bloodboil where you have 3 tanks rotating.

Taking aggro off a tank is a problem because it will get you killed and possibly wipe the raid, not because of how hard it is for him to get aggro back. If you have 2 or 3 people over 100%, you pull aggro, vansih/die, he doesn't go back to the tank, he goes to the other DPS, and then the next until the tank gets 10% higher then the new #1 or everyone else gets killed. You mentioned pulling aggro and tanking the boss as fun, on bosses that hit rogues for 20k, you just don't do it, not ever, not even if you have Cheat Death and 3 Vanishes. I said you shouldn't pull aggro, learn to read.

What mechanic don't I understand? You are the one who apparently doesn't know the Agi to Crit conversation, or that Crit isn't a bad thing, or that 20% more damage on 30% of your total damage for the last 35% of a fight is exactly aggro pulling burst damage. Just stop posting, you are making yourself look like an idiot. As for my skill level:

Wow Web Stats (or any other fight that night)

This is especially true for a deep Sub build because via Prep you essentially have an "extra"/"on demand" vanish for those "oh crap" situations.

I humbly request that you stop posting in this thread, your belligerent attacks do little but make you look foolish in the eyes of others. If you want to spec shadowstep, go ahead, but you won't convince anyone here who is concerned with their damage output that shadowstep is a viable alternative to combat for high end raiding purposes. As I pointed out earlier, tri-spec is a fine alternative to combat for raiding. These idiotic posts of yours do little but clutter the thread and are a detriment to the conversation at hand.

I've had a tri-tree build, always, and never really looked at the numbers behind the words. Its always seemed to me though that delving to the bottom of a tree was a waste of points, so I never did. I played with calculators and changed some things around, but I was always a hybrid. Marroc (before he left wow) gave me a lot of tips and suggestions on my builds and was willing to let me use them in raids (aq20, pre tbc obviously).

Now though, the group I run with doesn't seem to want to take me (whether its my build or gear, not exactly sure, see my armory). So I've been spending the morning so far playing with a variant of my build, which is a variant of the build this thread was started about (I was surprised at the outcome of my build when I reread the first page of this one and saw the build). So here's my version. Instead of Lightning Reflexes I took imp. gouge and imp. ss, and instead of 4/5 camo and ghostly strike/setup, I have camo/elusiveness.

Any thoughts on how my version might be better or (probably) worse?

@Ashere: I haven't been lurking here long, but I think you have as much grasp on the theorycraft as I do. The difference is I know that I should be quiet and keep reading. I've pulled my share of aggro and wiped groups, I know that while I might be a 70 undead rogue with raiding options I'm still an idiot.

Well the main problem is that you're using Sinister Strike, and choosing Subt talents that add zero DPS instead of things like Aggression, Weapon Spec, Weapon Expertise, Combat Potency, and Surprise Attacks that have very tangible impacts on your DPS potential. If you go that deep into Subt, you should be using Hemorrhage.

Edit: Or just read Aldiranna's post.

When trying to earn your way into a group your best bet is to go with a standard spec that the uninformed masses are comfortable with and that will put you the highest on the meters. To that end I would try to farm a Latro's from Black Morass or pick up one of the Gladiator's Quickblades (S1/S2/S3 depending on your personal limitations), and go combat swords. While the total raid value of Tri-Spec Hemo is similar, your personal DPS and position on the meters will be lower, and that is all most people will see and judge you on. So if you want a better shot at raiding more, go 20/41/0 until they know you know what you are doing.

As far as your suggested Spec, taking the point from Prep and putting it in Dirty Deeds is more DPS, but it is personal preference, Imp Sinister Strike is a waste. Right now you are at a level of gear where you are going to be fine with Hemo. I would also recommend working on your hit rating, and get rid of the 8 Agility Gems unless you are mutilate, use +4 Hit/+4 Agi gems in the red slots.

Edit - Got called away while typing and beaten to the punch

Thanks for the ideas. I would like to mention that in the kara pug I was in the other day, I was 6th after Attuemen (we wiped once, I got dc'd and got back in about midway through the 2nd attempt on him), and then 4th after we stopped for the night (when I switched my claw of the netherwing flight OH for a emerald ripper OH). And yes, I know its not that great of an accomplishment.

I can do the Season 1 stuff now that it's worth honor instead of arena points, I have a difficult time finding groups (I'm too impatient with the LFG channel).

I took Imp. SS because before the tri spec hemo build that was my attack of choice (unfortunately, it was also my attack of choice when I had dual daggers). I forgot that its either Hemo or SS, so I'll shift some points around. As for Prep/Dirty Deeds, I didn't put points there because I wasn't sure, so I went with the action instead of the skill. I also seem to think that 1%/2% aren't as big a deal as they might be, which is why I always seem to skip Murder.

But again, I only have a marginal grasp on the theorycraft as it stands, and the spreadsheets don't completely work for me (I have Openoffice, using the OO version, but the gear I have isn't in the sheets and I haven't taken the time to search for how to add it all in). So I'm going mostly by what I like and how I think I play.

6th means you were dead last in DPS, probably behind the offtank (assuming 3 healers, MT, OT and 5 DPS), if a rogue finished there I wouldn't want to take him back either.

Both of these can get you in trouble, first off you never Sinister Strike with daggers, you Backstab, Mutilate or Shiv. At this point I would say for a Kara Pug, with your gear you should be significantly higher this 6th, probably higher then 4th unless there are some over geared people or a stacked DPS group that you aren't in. With a Tri Spec, try to run a 3s/5r cycle, and try to keep S&D up all the time, and Rupture up as much as possible.

No, there was someone below me, but like I said, I know I'm not great atm. I also know not to SS with daggers but I did it anyway, and I know to come in out of the rain but sometimes I just stand there. This wasn't with the group I would normally go with, but again you're right, I wouldn't take me either.

I usually CS SnD SSx5 Rupture (this is new w/in the last two weeks, was Evis), SSx2/3 (depends on the CPs) and Evis, at least I try to do this as much as possible. I'm going to try this for a few hours doing dailies this afternoon. I got rid of prep for 1/2 Dirty Deeds, changed imp gouge/imp ss to 5/5 Lighting Reflexes.

You should never use Evis on a boss for sustained DPS, the only time to use it is while farming when you have 4 or more combo points and don't need the S&D time for the next mob.

Not intending to troll, but I don't think he was talking about a sustained DPS situation if he was opening with Cheap Shot. Eviscerate is fine for clearing trash, but in the case of a boss fight (in which case, Garrote would be the opener of choice), you're correct.

So I guess this thread should just die because it's gone far off topic and because the answer to the title of the thread is that the inflection point is unattainable?

Perhaps I have been in kara more recently than some of you, my alt is a rogue rather than my main, but as I recall there is a lot of immunity to rupture going on in there as well is there not?

The inflection point is variable. At lower gear levels of a raiding rogue (kara/t4/entry T5), hemo and combat are similiar damage. Which one 'wins' will depend on gear, mostly, and is highly subjective based on that. As you move deeper into T5/T6, combat once again takes full swing.

Well, obviously if you can't rupture then you would use _______ (fill in the blank)