Ashere

Basically, this thread was taken over by a bunch of dimwits who prefer to yell omg combat is better, and don't give a shit about where and how combat performs compared to hemo, in whatever spec. The title suggests finding out where one starts outperforming the other, all they care about is their own leet idiocracy, how big their epeen is and how good their gear is.
Sorry, I am getting even further off topic here, but I'm definitely not the one who started derailing here. Proving that one way or another hemo, with or without shadowstep could outperform combat for araid gets nothing but OMG don't spec hemo! or OMG regem! or OMG, never use Shadowstep! Is that the point of this thread?
No, this thread is about the possibilities, how things may work and under what circumstances, backed up where needed with reliable speadsheet data.

Sorry, but if it's viable for a raid to get a borebat rogue, then why WOULDN'T it be viable for a raid to get a Shadowstep rogue to the raid, even if the two even out, and speccing either one doesn't bring anything extra to the table.

 

Nurru

Somehow your posts manage to make less sense the deeper they get in the thread.

Using terrible logic like this you could say that since you can justify a combat rogue you can justify a rogue with no talent points at all. Ideal specs are a crutch, learn to play?

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

Breganth

Kara is a bad instance to use as a judge of damage for a hemo rogue, specifically a tri-spec. Because, as was stated already, ~90% of the instance is immune to rupture and bleed effects, a rogue that's specced for high AP, and without imp evis (that any combat rogue with an IQ of >2 would have), will suffer on the meters.

Another thing.. Don't let anyone determine your spec for you. Take the advice and any constructive criticism given you, but ultimately go with what suits you and the longer you do it, the more adept you will become at making it work for you. Piss on them if they don't like it. Personally, I've always enjoyed running with comparably equipped combat rogues and at the end of an instance being neck-and-neck with them on the damage meters.

 

◊ Lrigatonmai

Pointing out the flaws in your reasoning is not the same as yelling about spec superiority. The same people you are accusing of yelling have stated that a tri-spec can be effective in certain situations.

Note: The statement above is probably a lie.

 

maxpowers

I do hate to reiterate myself, but once again, with the latest version of one of the spreadsheets (2.3.2.5), tri-spec (11/27/23) is about 1% better than combat swords at the highest gear levels.

 

Idk

Huh? I can think of several reasons why a raiding combat rogue wouldn't have imp evis. Does that make me stupid?

 

• Aldriana

I believe he was referring to a Karazhan-level rogue, for whom you can make a case for Improved Eviscerate. Once you get to the 25-man instances (and even to some extent Zul'aman) one can make a pretty strong argument to ditch Improved Eviscerate - and most combat rogues do.

 

◊ Shaker

I want to reply to the "combat nazi" comment, to point out that the VERY first person I remember that gave a good detailed analysis of the 125% hemo changes when they hit the PTR, resulting in a "You are going to want a hemo rogue in your raid group" conclusion, was Vulajin.

Here's the post here: http://elitistjerks.com/536225-post549.html

And a quote:

Seriously - we're combat because currently it's been demonstrated to be the best build for our chosen role. I'd love to have as much reliable damage and also have Shadowstep - it's a fun ability... but right now the damage isn't there and I'm not willing to give up that much damage for some fun and utility - this is a choice that EVERY rogue needs to make on their own.

To those saying "Hey it does do just as much damage" - money where mouth is - I want to see WWS's of 2-warglaive rogues with Shadowstep builds doing 2k+ DPS. I'll say that 1 bloodlust/heroism is the limit, but any/all other outside buffs are acceptable, as long as it's sustained DPS over 5+ minutes.

 

Breganth

No, it doesn't. I should have stated that any combat rogue "at that level" would have Imp Evis.

 

• Aldriana

I'd add one more condition to this, based on the fact that off the top of my head the only sustained DPS fight which lasts more than 5 minutes for a guild at that level gear is Gurtogg: you can't get Fel Rage during the parse, either.

 

◊ Shaker

I was thinking a no-constructs Teron - but given that I have no personal experience with the fight, (parses I saw were ~6 minutes, I believe..?) I'll defer to those that do have such experience.

 

• Scheme

At the stated level of gear, Teron takes about 3.5 minutes or less, which is probably good enough. Gurtogg isn't really a good choice, since with the tank juggling going on, threat is a serious concern.

 

Jakani

Reading the thread, I note that though he's been saying this numerous times, it has not been addressed. I can confirm that using the default gear and buff setup of the 2.3.2.5 DPS spreadsheet, 11/27/23 Hemo (4/5 Sword Spec, 2/2 DD) does out DPS 20/41 Combat Swords if you count the raid debuff.

DPS Spreadsheet:
11/27/23 1655.97 (1528.89 w/o debuff estimate)
debuff estimate = 127.08
20/41 1638.08

Same Gear in the Gear Spreadsheet:
11/27/23 1554.92
if we add the 127.08 debuff estimate from the other sheet: 1682
20/41 1667.1

Looks like on both spreadsheets, Hemo is on par with combat at the top gear level.

 

• Scheme

It has been addressed. It's been stated numerous times that the spreadsheet DPS figure assumes every hemo charge is consumed. It's been stated numerous times that it is worth having one tri-spec hemo rogue in the raid. The point of contention that none of the gut-instinct-go-with-your-feelings idiots in this thread seem to be able to grasp is that combat swords is inarguably more personal DPS.

 

◊ Kaubel

Yup. I still hate you guys.