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Old 12/20/07, 6:11 PM   5 links from elsewhere to this Post. Click to view. #1626
Ashere
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Khadgar (EU)
Originally Posted by Melnor View Post
So I guess this thread should just die because it's gone far off topic and because the answer to the title of the thread is that the inflection point is unattainable?
Basically, this thread was taken over by a bunch of dimwits who prefer to yell omg combat is better, and don't give a shit about where and how combat performs compared to hemo, in whatever spec. The title suggests finding out where one starts outperforming the other, all they care about is their own leet idiocracy, how big their epeen is and how good their gear is.
Sorry, I am getting even further off topic here, but I'm definitely not the one who started derailing here. Proving that one way or another hemo, with or without shadowstep could outperform combat for araid gets nothing but OMG don't spec hemo! or OMG regem! or OMG, never use Shadowstep! Is that the point of this thread?
No, this thread is about the possibilities, how things may work and under what circumstances, backed up where needed with reliable speadsheet data.

Sorry, but if it's viable for a raid to get a borebat rogue, then why WOULDN'T it be viable for a raid to get a Shadowstep rogue to the raid, even if the two even out, and speccing either one doesn't bring anything extra to the table.
 
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Old 12/20/07, 6:31 PM   #1627
Nurru
JG Below
 
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Undead Priest
 
Mal'Ganis
Somehow your posts manage to make less sense the deeper they get in the thread.

Originally Posted by Ashere
Sorry, but if it's viable for a raid to get a borebat rogue, then why WOULDN'T it be viable for a raid to get a Shadowstep rogue
Using terrible logic like this you could say that since you can justify a combat rogue you can justify a rogue with no talent points at all. Ideal specs are a crutch, learn to play?

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?
 
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Old 12/20/07, 6:32 PM   #1628
Breganth
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Nagrand (EU)
Kara is a bad instance to use as a judge of damage for a hemo rogue, specifically a tri-spec. Because, as was stated already, ~90% of the instance is immune to rupture and bleed effects, a rogue that's specced for high AP, and without imp evis (that any combat rogue with an IQ of >2 would have), will suffer on the meters.

Another thing.. Don't let anyone determine your spec for you. Take the advice and any constructive criticism given you, but ultimately go with what suits you and the longer you do it, the more adept you will become at making it work for you. Piss on them if they don't like it. Personally, I've always enjoyed running with comparably equipped combat rogues and at the end of an instance being neck-and-neck with them on the damage meters.
 
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Old 12/20/07, 6:39 PM   #1629
 Lrigatonmai
owns a cowbell irl
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Ashere View Post
Basically, this thread was taken over by a bunch of dimwits who prefer to yell omg combat is better, and don't give a shit about where and how combat performs compared to hemo, in whatever spec. The title suggests finding out where one starts outperforming the other, all they care about is their own leet idiocracy, how big their epeen is and how good their gear is.
Sorry, I am getting even further off topic here, but I'm definitely not the one who started derailing here. Proving that one way or another hemo, with or without shadowstep could outperform combat for araid gets nothing but OMG don't spec hemo! or OMG regem! or OMG, never use Shadowstep! Is that the point of this thread?
No, this thread is about the possibilities, how things may work and under what circumstances, backed up where needed with reliable speadsheet data.

Sorry, but if it's viable for a raid to get a borebat rogue, then why WOULDN'T it be viable for a raid to get a Shadowstep rogue to the raid, even if the two even out, and speccing either one doesn't bring anything extra to the table.
Pointing out the flaws in your reasoning is not the same as yelling about spec superiority. The same people you are accusing of yelling have stated that a tri-spec can be effective in certain situations.

Note: The statement above is probably a lie.
Originally Posted by Praetorian View Post
Seriously, stop posting.
 
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Old 12/20/07, 6:43 PM   #1630
maxpowers
Von Kaiser
 
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Dwarf Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by castille View Post
The inflection point is variable. At lower gear levels of a raiding rogue (kara/t4/entry T5), hemo and combat are similiar damage. Which one 'wins' will depend on gear, mostly, and is highly subjective based on that. As you move deeper into T5/T6, combat once again takes full swing.
I do hate to reiterate myself, but once again, with the latest version of one of the spreadsheets (2.3.2.5), tri-spec (11/27/23) is about 1% better than combat swords at the highest gear levels.
 
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Old 12/20/07, 7:00 PM   #1631
Idk
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Dreadmaul
Originally Posted by Breganth View Post
and without imp evis (that any combat rogue with an IQ of >2 would have)
Huh? I can think of several reasons why a raiding combat rogue wouldn't have imp evis. Does that make me stupid?
 
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Old 12/20/07, 7:01 PM   #1632
 Aldriana
Super Macho Man
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Proudmoore
I believe he was referring to a Karazhan-level rogue, for whom you can make a case for Improved Eviscerate. Once you get to the 25-man instances (and even to some extent Zul'aman) one can make a pretty strong argument to ditch Improved Eviscerate - and most combat rogues do.
 
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Old 12/20/07, 7:57 PM   #1633
 Shaker
AUGH CHAMPION TIME
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Elune
I want to reply to the "combat nazi" comment, to point out that the VERY first person I remember that gave a good detailed analysis of the 125% hemo changes when they hit the PTR, resulting in a "You are going to want a hemo rogue in your raid group" conclusion, was Vulajin.

Here's the post here: http://elitistjerks.com/536225-post549.html

And a quote:

Conclusions this time: there's not much to be said. 11/28/22 Hemo with swords seems to pull right up alongside 19/41+1 combat swords, even before the Hemo debuff is factored in. Once you add in the contribution of the debuff, it's no contest. I know what I'll be speccing, come 2.3.
Seriously - we're combat because currently it's been demonstrated to be the best build for our chosen role. I'd love to have as much reliable damage and also have Shadowstep - it's a fun ability... but right now the damage isn't there and I'm not willing to give up that much damage for some fun and utility - this is a choice that EVERY rogue needs to make on their own.

To those saying "Hey it does do just as much damage" - money where mouth is - I want to see WWS's of 2-warglaive rogues with Shadowstep builds doing 2k+ DPS. I'll say that 1 bloodlust/heroism is the limit, but any/all other outside buffs are acceptable, as long as it's sustained DPS over 5+ minutes.
 
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Old 12/20/07, 7:57 PM   #1634
Breganth
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Nagrand (EU)
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
Huh? I can think of several reasons why a raiding combat rogue wouldn't have imp evis. Does that make me stupid?
No, it doesn't. I should have stated that any combat rogue "at that level" would have Imp Evis.
 
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Old 12/20/07, 8:10 PM   #1635
 Aldriana
Super Macho Man
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
To those saying "Hey it does do just as much damage" - money where mouth is - I want to see WWS's of 2-warglaive rogues with Shadowstep builds doing 2k+ DPS. I'll say that 1 bloodlust/heroism is the limit, but any/all other outside buffs are acceptable, as long as it's sustained DPS over 5+ minutes.
I'd add one more condition to this, based on the fact that off the top of my head the only sustained DPS fight which lasts more than 5 minutes for a guild at that level gear is Gurtogg: you can't get Fel Rage during the parse, either.
 
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Old 12/20/07, 8:29 PM   #1636
 Shaker
AUGH CHAMPION TIME
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Elune
I was thinking a no-constructs Teron - but given that I have no personal experience with the fight, (parses I saw were ~6 minutes, I believe..?) I'll defer to those that do have such experience.
 
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Old 12/20/07, 8:41 PM   #1637
 Scheme
Throbbing Bollocks
 
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Scheme
Undead Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
I was thinking a no-constructs Teron - but given that I have no personal experience with the fight, (parses I saw were ~6 minutes, I believe..?) I'll defer to those that do have such experience.
At the stated level of gear, Teron takes about 3.5 minutes or less, which is probably good enough. Gurtogg isn't really a good choice, since with the tank juggling going on, threat is a serious concern.

 
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Old 12/20/07, 9:46 PM   #1638
Jakani
Piston Honda
 
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Troll Rogue
 
Perenolde
Originally Posted by maxpowers View Post
I do hate to reiterate myself, but once again, with the latest version of one of the spreadsheets (2.3.2.5), tri-spec (11/27/23) is about 1% better than combat swords at the highest gear levels.
Reading the thread, I note that though he's been saying this numerous times, it has not been addressed. I can confirm that using the default gear and buff setup of the 2.3.2.5 DPS spreadsheet, 11/27/23 Hemo (4/5 Sword Spec, 2/2 DD) does out DPS 20/41 Combat Swords if you count the raid debuff.

DPS Spreadsheet:
11/27/23 1655.97 (1528.89 w/o debuff estimate)
debuff estimate = 127.08
20/41 1638.08

Same Gear in the Gear Spreadsheet:
11/27/23 1554.92
if we add the 127.08 debuff estimate from the other sheet: 1682
20/41 1667.1

Looks like on both spreadsheets, Hemo is on par with combat at the top gear level.
 
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Old 12/20/07, 9:52 PM   #1639
 Scheme
Throbbing Bollocks
 
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Scheme
Undead Rogue
 
No WoW Account
It has been addressed. It's been stated numerous times that the spreadsheet DPS figure assumes every hemo charge is consumed. It's been stated numerous times that it is worth having one tri-spec hemo rogue in the raid. The point of contention that none of the gut-instinct-go-with-your-feelings idiots in this thread seem to be able to grasp is that combat swords is inarguably more personal DPS.

 
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Old 12/20/07, 11:33 PM   #1640
 Kaubel
Jack Vettriano > You
 
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Dextor
Tauren Druid
 
<Elitist Jerks>
No WoW Account
Yup. I still hate you guys.
 
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