800 dps with or without the hemo debuff dps included?

I wonder, does anybody know how to calculate the DPS gain through the Hemo debuff?
Say we have x warriors, y hunters and z rogues and their DPS, what amount did the hemo debuff contribute?

PS: Raid utility for a rogue. I'm feeling... different.

x y and z are all irrelevant parameters.

Hemo has 30 charges, each of 10 damage. In a raid situation, it's generally safe to assume all charges will be used. So you calculate it extremely simply as a flat bonus of 300 to each Hemo. The DPS boost depends how often you're hitting your Hemo button. Assuming Hemo spam (i.e. not using any finishers), that's 35/40 x 4 seconds = 3.5 seconds. So the Hemo debuff contributes something on the order of 300/175 = 85.7 DPS.

In practice you get a bit lower than this. because sometimes you won't use all charges inside the 3.5 seconds, and you don't spend all your energy on Hemo - some of it is spent on finishers.

That would be... difficult... and should probably also include calculations for spec and DST trophy. Basically you want to figure out the average crit rate of each "contributor type" (for the lack for a better word) as well as the proportion of the hemo debuff that they are using up based on how many times they attack in a unit of time compared to the other contributors. If the "contributor type" has a special attack with a damage multiplier you will have to also figure out what percentage of their attacks have this multiplier. Then with this information you can figure out what percentage of your total hemo charges will be crits and what percent will have damage modifiers on them, as well as what percentage of your hemo hits will have a probability of being glancing blows. This will get you a rather accurate, but painful, calculation of hemo's dps contribution.

Let's try to simplify this a bit by making a few assumptions:
-everyone has a 30% crit rate and nobody is using damage mulitplier attacks (and nobody has talents such as lethality or impale)
-60% of hemo's charges are being used up by white hits, so 15% of your hemo charges are glancing blows (25% chance of glancing blows now, correct?)

10 * (0.30 * 2 + 0.15 * 0.70 + 0.55) * 30 = 376.5 damage on average per hemo

This places it at around 107.5 dps if you assume that it is being applied every 3.5 seconds. I found that the 30 hemo charges were being eaten in about 2.5 seconds in raids so all charges will be consumed as long as you are not very melee light. Critical strikes that hit for more than 200% normal damage would also increase hemo's dps. Wow that's better than we had initially thought!

Blizzard has probably been beating their heads against the wall for two years now trying to get us to use hemo!

That seems reasonable.
Now in these 107.5 DPS there is a part already used up by myself (i.e. when looking at the WWS reports, I cannot just add 107.5 DPS to my already present DPS value, but have to substract a fraction).
And additionally these 107.5 DPS would have to be accounted for armor mitigation, which reduces their number further.

So it'd be (107.5 - (107.5 * (Personal DPS/Total Physical DPS))) * Armor Mitigation

[top] DPS gain for other classes

"Raid Utility"


// Edit
Interestingly, for our Magtheridon kill, this value comes down to 87.74 DPS, before armor mitigation.
Quite about the number that is floating around here.

Good points! I totally forgot to subtract out the portion of the dps that is taken up by yourself:

(N-1)/N * 107.5 = hemo dps contribution, where N is the number of physical dps classes in the raid. This is simplistic as rogues tend to hit more often than other classes but it will give a good approximation.

DPS is not always a good representation of how many times someone hit in a time span (look at two handed warriors for example). If you want a more accurate representation don't use (Personal DPS / Total Physical DPS), instead you should look at your WWS logs and figure out (Personal Hits / Total Physical Hits) for the entire fight. Remember to include all physical hits in this calculation including pets, prot warriors and special attacks.

For theoretical purposes we do not tend to subtract armor from dps calculations. If you want to figure out hemo's dps contribution on a particular boss encounter so that you can figure out your 'net dps' you can use that boss's armor value with the armor formula I gave in post #10.

--Hemo Gruul Kill Example--
This is the Gruul kill that I posted in the OP:
ichichop 339 + 53 + 6 = 398
shadpwn 282 + 67 + 3 = 352
covert 256 + 55 + 4 = 315
wiste 75 + 68 + 132 + 14 + 100 + 10 + 20 + 1 = 420
kashira 158 + 9 + 22 + 22 + 12 + 2 = 225
kirason 148 + 29 + 8 + 1 = 186
elessedil 24 + 95 + 8 + 6 + 1 = 134
nackleburr 12 + 52 + 27 + 72 + 39 + 9 = 211
geeber 26 + 12 + 52 + 83 + 12 = 185
kurdrae 5 + 27 + 4 + 2 + 14 + 1 + 2 + 2 = 57

total 398 + 352 + 315 + 420 + 225 + 186 + 134 + 211 + 185 + 57 = 2483

107.5 * (2483-398) / 2483 = 90.3 dps

edit: the follow up down below shows that this statement is in fact false, the hemo damage buff is affected by armor and crits.

No idea to be honest, and I also have no idea how you could test it, since kick can't glance and all other damage attacks are not static.

But if I would have to make an assumption I would say it works exactly the same: glancing blow damage + hemo damage.

No, that's wrong. You can easily test it with Gouge and Kick!

Hemorrhage: It's better than you thought

and

Hemorrhage: A Guide - by Cocoabutta, US. 22/10/2006

Well my bad then, or it was changed since I read the post. Anyways it should be easy to test it in a duel on a 0 armor target with kick.

Don't suppose there's any chance that the Hemo debuff would be boosted by Mangle? Having Hemorrhage count as a Bleed effect would be far too logical...

This has been one of the more interesting threads I've read (and from a fellow spirestoner no less). I am going this build for raids next week to try it out. My only question is, I have a dragonstrike (mace), I am offhanding a merciless gladiator's quickblade and i'm currently 16/45 mace sword combat; now, having said that what variation of this build should i go? I'm leaning towards ichichop's 11/28/22 build, but the builds without weapon specs (11/21/29, 11/26/24) intrigued me, since i don't have a mainhand sword.

Any response is appreciated.

Edit: Another question, I saw people mentioning cycle, would you pretty much stick to your same cycle, obviously replacing Ss with hemo?

If you have 2p T4 you should use 1s/5r cycle.

That depends on more than a single factor. If your hit chance is high enough, and your offhand fast enough, there's a good chance you end up with 5s/5r being better.

http://rogue.raidcal.com/


I've been playing with the talent calculator and there seem a lot of options for Hemo, all look somewhat gimped though.

What would be a recommended spec? Obviously daggers are not an option. (The relative DPS values are in comparison with my current combat swords build)
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ebo...bVzxMZxMe0Mh0o -105 DPS. 12/28/21 Seems the best option.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=wZheVobVzxMMoxxMe0Mh0o -114 DPS
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=w0ebohZ0eV0bVzxZxbe0Mh0o -127 DPS
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=i0eboZ0xVZxbeoMGooekx -229 DPS
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboy0oZZxbeoMGooekx -246 DPS

Spreadsheet with example #1 available here.

Another issue with TBC, is the lack of "good" hemo weapons.
Until your guild is doing TK / SSC, there's not a real load of options. [Dragonmaw], [Talon of Azshara], [Rod of the Sun King], [Spiteblade]. PvP offers nothing, even though it's a very viable PvP spec.
The best two options are from Black Temple. [Syphon of the Nathrezim], [Warglaive of Azzinoth]

Since Hemo also works with hunters and pets, in most melee heavy situations it's fairly save to assume your raid will use a lot of the charges that 1 rogue can give.
I haven't found any volunteers in the guild yet, perhaps when we get a good 2.7 speed weapon to drop. (None of our rogues are Blacksmiths)

Good, so it's the same formula as SS as I always suspected, but wasn't entirely sure.

SS: ((DAMAGE+(AP/14*2.4))+98)
Hemo: ((DAMAGE+(AP/14*SPEED))+10)

i dont have any wws from when i was combat, but i tried out the 11/28/22 build last night in serpentshrine, and although i still did manage to do decent damage with it, im pretty sure that i would be doing better with combat (even considering the hemo debuff)

i was quite impressed with some of the numbers, but a lot of the fights dont lend themselves to the playstyle/cycle required to maximize the dps on that build, because many fights you cannot sit there and rupture everything continuously, or are forced to switch targets

ie. lurker, which is a crazy test (which i did finish first in overall damage ~1k dps if i remember correctly) would have had more dmg as combat, because you cant rupture on the adds because they die too fast, and you only get a few ruptures up when hes not submerged

fathom lord i still managed ~1050 dps which is pretty respectable, but also not optimal because of having to swtich targets to get the totems down quickly

the only real test i think thats good is tidewalker, where on our first attempt i managed 1260 dps for 50% of the fight until i took an earthquake + grave in rapid succession without heals and died to it ... our kill on tidewalker i managed i think 1150 dps with two graves but this was without mangle for a good portion of the fight because our druid died =(

also i dont have a dragonspine which seems to work much better in helping this builds dps so we could be doing gruul tonight and if it drops and i get it ill most likely stay with this build for a little while longer


overall i like the build and enjoyed using it so hopefully there will be a point where the overlap isnt so small, but i was used to having large leads on bosses where i actually got windfury (which was few and far between until recently when the raid leaders see that having a warrior and 2 rogues actually helps raid dps significantly) along with our enh shaman who previously refused to drop windfury when it was typically only myself along with a feral druid and 2 bm hunters

rupture was pretty amazing with this build too at one point in the night i had a 515 tick, dont recall how much attack power i had at the time though

I'm going to have to agree that this spec is seriously lacking in pvp. Obviously pvp is not the primary concern in a raiding hemo spec but it was billed as something of a "step-up" from combat as a bonus. Without AR I found it exceedingly difficult to burst down our target in the 3v3 DPS team I run with (Not the best rating in the world, but top 10% of our BG at least). I started the night off optimistically with my new crazy raiding hemo spec, until we ended up starting 0-5. Respec'd combat after the 5th loss and went undefeated for the last 6 games.

Not to say this build doesn't have excellent raiding potential in high end 25 mans, but I would not recommend it for rogues like me with T4 equivalent gear and still occasionally running Kara; it just didn't work in pve or pvp.

I'd imagine it would be pretty abysmal for PvP unless you got a very slow BT weapon. The PvP benefit for me would be being able to respec to combat maces and not have to collect two sets of weapons, after a Syphon drops that is. I really wouldn't do this spec unless you're mainly interested in PvE though.

For those who have switched from a combat dagger build to 11/28/22 and have pvp'd with it, would you call it a step up? I'm actually fine with cdags pve damage, but just want to shoot myself in the face everytime I step into an arena with the spec.

Also when modeling this build in the spreadsheet, is there anyway to force a 1s/5r cycle? I keep getting 2s/5r returned for max snd uptime, and when I include the hemo debuff estimate it changes to 3s/5r cut (no idea why).

Even though I still can't get a Spiteblade and am still a couple weeks away from a Slicer, I think I'm gonna spec this out and go at it with a Fool's Bane/Quickblade combo. My backstabbin days are growing weary on me.

Spectacular thread.

I simply had a question: seeing as we're using WWS as our main source of analyzing this spec, as opposed to the spreadsheet, I'd like to ask what you guys think the best non 2-piece t4 cycle would be. I'd like to get an idea of what you guys think, so we can derive some sort of 'standard' to do our testing with.

The reason I ask is that I'm in a position to acquire 2 piece t6 within the next week or two, which would replace the last remaining t4 on me.

Since this spec is based on a pure pve dps focus, I don't see why people aren't picking up 5/5 Opp to add 20% to their garrotes?

In my initial thread I noted that you would get marginally better dps from opportunity, but since you are only obtaining maximum 3-4 garrotes per fight this will be a really minimal increase. You could also pick up the increased feint threat reduction talent, but with an extra vanish who needs to feint?

I have had some success with this spec in season two running with an ice mage in 2v2 - we are currently 1900 rated with a 33-7 record. I can't say anything more or I would have to kill you all.

You would probably want something like a 2s/5r cycle to extend your slice and dice durations, but that is just a guess.

I'm sorry, but what does hit and offhand speed have to do with energy cycle in a 11/28/22 build?