Not to say this build doesn't have excellent raiding potential in high end 25 mans, but I would not recommend it for rogues like me with T4 equivalent gear and still occasionally running Kara; it just didn't work in pve or pvp.
Pretty much sums up my thoughts about this hemo build. 2.60 weapons and pre-BT gear just won't make up for the loss of burst and sustained damage from a pure combat build. Subtlety/Assa build is already weak for arenas IMO due to weak itemization for this spec. You won't get far pure with PvE gear to make up for the lack of dps from the arena sets.
If you're after a build for PvE and PvP, why not go for full Sword or Fist Combat/Assa? Works nicely in arenas with good support. Subtetly doesn't really add much more survivablity. It's a tree for bgs, duelling and ganking
I'm going to have to agree that this spec is seriously lacking in pvp. Obviously pvp is not the primary concern in a raiding hemo spec but it was billed as something of a "step-up" from combat as a bonus. Without AR I found it exceedingly difficult to burst down our target in the 3v3 DPS team I run with (Not the best rating in the world, but top 10% of our BG at least). I started the night off optimistically with my new crazy raiding hemo spec, until we ended up starting 0-5. Respec'd combat after the 5th loss and went undefeated for the last 6 games.
Not to say this build doesn't have excellent raiding potential in high end 25 mans, but I would not recommend it for rogues like me with T4 equivalent gear and still occasionally running Kara; it just didn't work in pve or pvp.
and
Originally Posted by Milano
Pretty much sums up my thoughts about this hemo build. 2.60 weapons and pre-BT gear just won't make up for the loss of burst and sustained damage from a pure combat build. Subtlety/Assa build is already weak for arenas IMO due to weak itemization for this spec. You won't get far pure with PvE gear to make up for the lack of dps from the arena sets.
If you're after a build for PvE and PvP, why not go for full Sword or Fist Combat/Assa? Works nicely in arenas with good support. Subtetly doesn't really add much more survivablity. It's a tree for bgs, duelling and ganking
I'm curious - what are the dps numbers you are seeing and have you included the additional utility provided by the hemo debuff? Something makes me think that you are not using the build properly if you are seeing substantially inferior sustained damage compared to pure combat. Milano's gear is better than mine and has DST, so I would expect you to see about the same results that I have been getting. Rudy is using a dagger in his offhand even with sword spec which I find a little odd.
I see that you are both currently deep combat swords, did you try out the 11/28/22 build and if so can you post your results?
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I think that pvp as a rogue has been beaten do death; beyond that there is no way to quantify any claims to a build being better than any other in pvp as there is such a large variable in skill, matchups, etc. Please focus on the pve aspect of this build in this thread and try not to make claims without any evidence to back it up.
I'm curious - what are the dps numbers you are seeing and have you included the additional utility provided by the hemo debuff? Something makes me think that you are not using the build properly if you are seeing substantially inferior sustained damage compared to pure combat. Milano's gear is better than mine and has have DST, so I would expect you to see about the same results that I have been getting. Rudy is using a dagger in his offhand even with sword spec which I find a little odd.
I see that you are both currently deep combat swords, did you try out the 11/28/22 build and if so can you post your results?
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I think that pvp as a rogue has been beaten do death; beyond that there is no way to quantify any claims to a build being better than any other in pvp as there is such a large variable in skill, matchups, etc. Please focus on the pve aspect of this build in this thread and try not to make claims without any evidence to back it up.
I realize the sunblade in my offhand is very sub-optimal and odd, but I figured it would do a better job than an unenchanted Latro's until Tuesday when I pick up my arena offhand.
I would not say the damage is "substantially" inferior to my combat damage, although I honestly have no WWS logs to post for you as the guy who usually runs them was having technical issues or some crap like that. All I can go off is SWstats on Gruul and in Kara which I don't think gives a complete picture but the difference was around 200 dps.
I realize it is a pve spec and this is a discussion about pve, I just felt with a few people mentioning something to the effect of "Oh! It should help out in arenas as well" I would say I got quite the opposite result when I tried it out. Yeah, you can't quantify pvp but that was my personal experience with the build.
Again, this is an excellent high end 25 man raiding spec so I will definitely give it the credit it is due in that regard.
This has been one of the more interesting threads I've read (and from a fellow spirestoner no less). I am going this build for raids next week to try it out. My only question is, I have a dragonstrike (mace), I am offhanding a merciless gladiator's quickblade and i'm currently 16/45 mace sword combat; now, having said that what variation of this build should i go? I'm leaning towards ichichop's 11/28/22 build, but the builds without weapon specs (11/21/29, 11/26/24) intrigued me, since i don't have a mainhand sword.
Any response is appreciated.
Edit: Another question, I saw people mentioning cycle, would you pretty much stick to your same cycle, obviously replacing Ss with hemo?
That is a very interesting question, as about 63.4% of your auto attack sword specs are coming from your offhand. On the other hand, weapon expertise is less interesting with only your offhand damage benefitting from it (does anyone know if offhands get a separate crit/hit calculation based on weapon skill for the offhand type?). My gut feeling is that 11/21/29 will be slightly better.
With hemo you will want a short cycle - most people here agree that 1s/5r or 2s/5r are the best cycles to take advantage of serrated blades. You will use only hemo in raids, no GS as it has some "issues" from a dps perspective.
I recently switched to 11/28/22 Fist build from a 15/45/5 Dagger build. I must say it seems to me I do around the same DPS throughout raids (SSC and TK) if not a little more, and the other melee have a significant boost. I have no charts or logs to back this up just yet. However on some of the more melee heavy fights (Void Reaver, Hydross, Leotherass) we have beaten the enrage timer by more than two minutes, where the previous week, same groups, it had been a lot closer to enrage. Again I apologize I don't have sturdy facts to back this up. But I most definitely recommend one rogue in a guild switching to this spec to compliment the other melee classes, and add to overall raid DPS.
I'm curious - what are the dps numbers you are seeing and have you included the additional utility provided by the hemo debuff? Something makes me think that you are not using the build properly if you are seeing substantially inferior sustained damage compared to pure combat. Milano's gear is better than mine and has DST, so I would expect you to see about the same results that I have been getting. Rudy is using a dagger in his offhand even with sword spec which I find a little odd.
I see that you are both currently deep combat swords, did you try out the 11/28/22 build and if so can you post your results?
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I think that pvp as a rogue has been beaten do death; beyond that there is no way to quantify any claims to a build being better than any other in pvp as there is such a large variable in skill, matchups, etc. Please focus on the pve aspect of this build in this thread and try not to make claims without any evidence to back it up.
I never said it gave lower dps than full combat for single target dps. It might work out well for bossfights and increasing the raid dps slightly if you have enough physical dps to use all the charges on hemo. You're most likely going to fall behind on trash clear and boss encounters with adds.
This kind of Combat/Subtlety build is lacking burst in PvP imo. Everyone is entitled to have their oppinions, I just don't like how hemo is atm. Was raiding quite a lot with a PvP hemo build before they moved Imp SnD to combat and did awesome dps, close to other rogues in the guild due to my gear (AQR+Iblis and high AP). Hemo kicked ass for PvP on level 60, but is lacking burst vs high resilience opponents at 70. Full combat atm outpeforms hemo for PvP imo, no mather how far you go down into the subtlety tree. Not taking master of subtlety and deadliness is gimp for PvP.
I might test this build myself later on farm contents though. Currently working on Kael'Thas, and I expect this build to underform on the weapon adds.
Skrypt I will try my hardest next week, but I don't know if I will be able to top numbers like 1400 dps on morogrim and 1260 dps on hydross, 960 dps on leotheras with a deep combat build. These are the numbers being produced by the 11/28/22 build and by next thursday I plan to have the combat numbers to bring carefully gathered statistics with the only variable being build into the case for 11/28/22. Hopefully other reports will come in as well and we should begin to see a clear demarcation of what type of gear is required to raid viably as hemo.
On trash mobs, the stats show an average of 1060 dps so no I do not believe that it slacks on trash pulls either.
Don't suppose there's any chance that the Hemo debuff would be boosted by Mangle? Having Hemorrhage count as a Bleed effect would be far too logical...
The answer is YES, YES, YES!! See my post on page 6 of this thread. In particular, follow the link to the "Rupture" thread that has calculated and statistical data of the impact of Mangle. It is "huge" for this spec, considering it already gets a 30% boost from Serrated Blades.
The answer is YES, YES, YES!! See my post on page 6 of this thread. In particular, follow the link to the "Rupture" thread that has calculated and statistical data of the impact of Mangle. It is "huge" for this spec, considering it already gets a 30% boost from Serrated Blades.
I think he is talking about the Hemo debuff itself (the 10 damage), and not Rupture, which of course profits by Mangle.
Also, referring to page numbers isn't very optimal, since I have another setup than you have, so your posting is on page #5 for me.
Originally Posted by Ichichop
(does anyone know if offhands get a separate crit/hit calculation based on weapon skill for the offhand type?).
Yes, it does. Just like weapon specialization, weapon skill accounts for different type of weapons.
I also tried 11/28/22 last night for the latter half of SSC and Al'ar/VR, so I'll add my data to the discussion. I will have to come back later next week and update the post with data for 20/41/00. (The Armory)
Group composition was 3 rogues, enhancement shaman, fury warrior.
I'm sure I would have had higher personal numbers with 41 combat, but the Hemo debuff appeared to have full-utilization, so that extra DPS was instead spread out across the raid. It was an easy night as we 1-shotted everything.
Note that these logs aren't rolled or merged. I was the only one running /combatlog.
(side note: I noticed weirdness with Static Charge logging on Vashj... any WWS tips? I find it hard to believe I did 100k+ damage to the raid when I was only hit with the Charge twice.)
Update: Lost our enhancement shaman, and my gear has changed quite a bit since this first set of logs. So I might have to wait a bit and re-analyze after the windfury change pans out and we get a new shaman into the mix.
Gotcha Spoon. The answer to Mangle directly affecting Hemo damage is "no". In fact, I'm fairly certain none of the bleed bonuses affect Hemo bonus damage, just like Hemo doesn't affect (tick off of) Garrotte damage. The nomenclature makes them sound like there should be some synergy there, but there is not. I'm almost surprised Mangle boosts Rupture in this regard, to be honest.
I also tried 11/28/22 last night for the latter half of SSC and Al'ar/VR, so I'll add my data to the discussion. I will have to come back later next week and update the post with data for 20/41/00. (The Armory)
Group composition was 3 rogues, enhancement shaman, fury warrior.
I'm sure I would have had higher personal numbers with 41 combat, but the Hemo debuff appeared to have full-utilization, so that extra DPS was instead spread out across the raid. It was an easy night as we 1-shotted everything.
Note that these logs aren't rolled or merged. I was the only one running /combatlog.
(side note: I noticed weirdness with Static Charge logging on Vashj... any WWS tips? I find it hard to believe I did 100k+ damage to the raid when I was only hit with the Charge twice.)
Checked the armory profiles of the 2 other rogues. They are kinda undergeared compared to you, but I'd still expect them to come out in front. Are you sure there's no difference with flask/pots and even sucking competition skillwise? Your greatest finnisher rupture with 30% extra dmg can't be used on Void Reaver, yet you beat others by a large margin.
These WWS logs doesn't prove anything about the usefullness of this build for raiding. The extra damage from full combat alone could outperform the hemo debuff. WWS sheet with new opponents and combat build won't give you a exact difference.
Shouldn't be too hard for those that are familiar with every mechanic and good with numbers to make up a mathematical solution for hemo use in raids.
Checked the armory profiles of the 2 other rogues. They are kinda undergeared compared to you, but I'd still expect them to come out in front. Are you sure there's no difference with flask/pots and even sucking competition skillwise? Your greatest finnisher rupture with 30% extra dmg can't be used on Void Reaver, yet you beat others by a large margin.
These WWS logs doesn't prove anything about the usefullness of this build for raiding. The extra damage from full combat alone could outperform the hemo debuff. WWS sheet with new opponents and combat build won't give you a exact difference.
Shouldn't be too hard for those that are familiar with every mechanic and good with numbers to make up a mathematical solution for hemo use in raids.
Just for your interest, in the Void Reaver WWS I posted, I also ranked higher than a combat rogue normally performing better in DPS than I do (although on a quite low level and not by a large margin) while still suffering from a 14k lower damage income than he did.
I didn't use any flasks/pot for this fight, if at all, I was using a +20 strength food buff (if at all, and I don't know if he had anything).
Just to clarify - I wasn't trying to compare myself to the other two rogues. I'm historically ahead of both by some margin when using a combat spec, but I've historically had a Vindicator's Brand MH. I just got the Talon this Thursday and respec'd to Hemo shortly after to test the theories in this thread, so I don't have any combat numbers as of yet. (Edit: These hemo numbers above are -wtih- the Talon, just to clarify).
I'm eager to see how things shape up next week with 20/41 - we usually have the same people every week in that Melee group, so the buffs should be identical. My goal here is just to add some more data to the discussion by comparing my own numbers with each of the two specs, so I agree that these numbers will mean more when I get the 2nd set of data next week.
Against my better judgment I went into SSC with this new build. 11/28/22 was surprisingly good! It didn't have the big SS crits with lethality that make you think you're doing heaps of damage. But I did notice much larger hits with white damage - consistently bigger. A good analogy for this spec is that it's like having half of a warp-spring coil except that it's active all the time. Considering 70% of my total damage is white damage, this is a good improvement. I'll post wws comparisons when they're available. Overall, I'm impressed!
Axelle,
Dath'remar
PS It shocked me to see how fast those hemo charges get chewed up by the raid.
A couple random thoughts/observations:
First, I was surprised how quick the charges went down. They *almost* always were cleared before my next Hemo. Second, 3k ruptures, lawl. Finally, I don't think I'm quite "there" yet with this spec. The lack of DST is really hurting me, and I think having a Syphon instead of a Talon would help as well. On some fights I was ahead of Decease (if you count the debuff), other fights not so much. I'm going to keep the spec for a few more days so I should have a couple more parses to offer, but as of now I think combat is a better choice for my current gear.
I'm going to go with the consensus that this spec will shine if you're a BT geared rogue. Much less than that and I think Combat Swords is going to be better overall. I'm not sure if it's because I'm not used to the spec or not but I was running about 2300 AP and 275 hit last night in SSC and was generally 100-200 dps behind what I usually am with my sword spec. I'm going to keep this spec for now since I seemed to do a lot better in arenas this week and I also want to try this out whenever a warp-spring coil drops (currently only using DST). It's probably also good to note that our enhancement shaman is on vacation for a while so we were running with a druid and only had a warrior in our group about half the time.
Here's our WWS (and no, i have no clue what Garr is) Moro fight I had 3 or 4 graves.
I don't really get how you expect us to take you seriously when you say that you have tested this build yet provide no statistics, group makeups, gear setups and even admit that there was no shaman in your group. You then throw out a random number of where you 'feel' that rogues will be viable with hemo with no math or statistics and then say that you were 80DPS behind combat again with nothing to back it up. Finally, it has been pointed out in this thread that the main advantage of heroism is not CP, but the extra white damage that the haste provides.
I'm sorry but I have to call this anecdotal evidence and ignore it until there is some meat to back it up.
Once again no math or statistics to back up your statements. Did you somehow find an enhancement shaman between your last post and this one to test out 11/21/29 and 11/28/22 to see that the extra 8% AP piled on top of an extra 10%AP (providing a whopping 0.8% more AP) pushes 11/21/29 over 11/28/22 even with no sword spec and no weapon expertise?
I highly doubt it :p
Sure...I don't theorycraft like you have but most of that is just that...theory. I have tested these and many other hemo specs since starting Kara and the best one pre 2.1 was without question 11/21/29. I was able to keep up if not be ahead of combat swords/fist.daggers on a consistant basis. After 2.1 came out and they nerfed the consumables and buffed the gear I was not able to reach the needed amount of AP raid buffed in order to make the spec work so I went back to testing. Since then through all my testing of different specs combat/swords is the best hands down at my gear level right now (1800 AP/291 Hit/23.67 Crit). I like the build and it's versatiity but the fact is at this point in time "for me", the raid is better off with me specing combat/swords.
From the posted data (thank you everyone: Panura, monkorn, Kanokai, Vladia, Surprise, Meggwyn, Tenge, Ippon and Daithi so far!), with T4 and mixed T5 gear and no DST this build seems to be slightly inferior or roughly equivalent to combat, outperforming it in a few fights. When I say slightly inferior, this is still a very competitive build and I don't think that any raid leader will tell you that you have to respec before coming on a raid. I will be posting my final comparison later this week (mostly T4 gear with DST) with breakdowns for each type of boss fight hopefully.
Persona, I am dubious of your methods if you found 11/21/29 to come out ahead of 11/28/22. What bosses did you benchmark it against? Who was the person you were comparing against? How did you maintain controls over the other variables such as group makeup and randomness of boss encounters? Did you count just bosses or take total damage over an instance? Did you include the hemo debuff dps? What was your gear like? I'd like to remind you that I am not just a theorycrafter, but also an avid raider. I think that the stats I posted show that I can put theory into practice and show concrete results.
One [small] note when you are comparing yourself to another rogue in the same raid for a build comparison is that the hemo debuff dps will be calculated differently:
Normally you take the debuff and subtract the dps that it added to yourself, which turns the 107.5dps into around 90 dps. If you are comparing against someone else in the same raid, you must also subtract the hemo debuff dps from them as well. You can circumvent some extra math by assuming that your hemo debuff dps and their hemo debuff dps cancel eachother out. In conclusion, the easier method will be to not subtract dps from either participant and just add 107.5 dps adjusted by armor to the hemo rogue's dps. The math for adjusting by boss's effective armor is below:
You could take a combatlog and parse the actual amount of landed hits between Hemo's to get an average of the # of attacks landed. Anyone got a link to one? (Apologies if I missed it, a quick read through the pages only gresulted in WWS reports)
We have multiple reports that hemo has it's full charges used up well before it is reapplied so I don't think that this would yield interesting results. Also this is a very per-raid group statistic as the makeup of physical dps'ers can vary wildly.
Would this spec be very good with the Kael'thas fight? It seems like grabbing that 2.9 speed sword would be amazing, and boost your dps alot more then combat would.
Would this spec be very good with the Kael'thas fight? It seems like grabbing that 2.9 speed sword would be amazing, and boost your dps alot more then combat would.
Being able to AR+BF weapon adds with combat helps you more I belive
A very small proportion of this build's dps comes from the actual damage of hemo attack (around 15-20%) which means that even a substantial increase in dps from hemo will only affect the build's dps by a small margin. The white damage from the weapon will increase you dps by a large margin, yes.
07/20/07, 9:20 PM
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