Milano, people need to get over the misconception that special attacks do a majority of the damage in a fight - just because you are making some big numbers doesn't mean that it is superior dps.

if AR is 10k extra damage, then with blade flurry it is 24k extra damage even if you include a 5CP crit eviscerate during the flurry's timespan. Not a huge amount of damage and very situational. How much damage do you think that you will gain from hemo on a 2.9 speed weapon and serrated blades over the course of that fight?

Ah, I see. I was wondering because at this point, i'm raiding with a combat mace spec, so I wouldn't lose much by switching over to hemo.

Interested in knowing the AP breaking point where an Hemo build using Warp Slicer would be compared to to cookie-cutter Combat build. I'm sure a lot of Rogues working on Keal'thas would find the info quite useful.


Edit: Warp Slicer - Items - World of Warcraft Warp Slicer link for the lazy.

Anecdotal evidence is nice, but I prefer some numbers to give credibility to the theorycraft. Could you post a link to one of your Morogrim combat logs?

The tests I ran were mostly on bosses in SSC. I would run a full clear with the same DPS warrior/resto shaman/3 rogue group set-up with 3 different specs. 17/44/0--11/28/22--11/21/29. I was not really comparing my stats with the other rogues per say, but I was watching at how I was keeping up with them. My comparisons came to my personal stats between specs on Morogrim/Karathres/Hydros/Vashj. Those were the main ones that I saw solid numbers from all specs to compare. I did some trash comparison but found it kind of hard to really get an accurate assessment on that but found they all seemed pretty close. I did factor in the debuff as it is a key part when comparing these specs.

My gear ranged from just Kara gear to what it is now. I respec weekly 2 or 3 times and am always testing out and looking for what works best for me at the time. I posted about the combat/hemo spec on the wow forums long before 2.1 came out and was pretty much shot down by people that are now giving it a shot...lol at them. I'm a firm believer in the spec, I just am finding myself to be doing more damage with the full combat spec right now. I logged out in my pvp last night so my armory unfortunately will not help much with checking out my gear. Just to give you an idea I'm sitting at 1797 AP--23.67% crit--291 Hit rating. With the 11/21/29 spec it jumps my AP up to 1940. I am speced 11/21/29 right now and will try to get some data in tonight’s raid (TK).

After reading through more of your posts I can see you have done allot more than just theory craft and I have to give you credit for the work you put into it. I got shot down with this spec a long time ago simply because I wasn't showing the numbers as proof. While I was correct about the spec (combat/Hemo in general), I can see now that your way is a much better way to bring it to the community.

I was lucky enough to get the Syphon from our 2nd kill the night after I got the sweet haste-rating mace offhand from BT and I have found combat maces much more rewarding in pvp situations (with imp kick and riposte). I played a lot initially with 23/0/38 and it indeed was fun to get a 2800 ghostly strike on a lock and a 2450 hemo on a mage (lol buy some resilience son), but i found it lacking in arena play. The only time I would go with a hemo-prep spec with these maces would be in 2v2 with a dps class. Since I 2v2 with a priest, however, I will stick to combat maces unless its WSG weekend and I want 2 sprints and ez ganking.

This thread re: hemo-pve has intrigued, me. I might have to give it a shot on some SSC or TK farm clear to see how it stacks up against my 2 fellow combat sword rogues.

Just as a followup for more data, here is SSC again from Tuesday this time.

Wow Web Stats

I respecced back to 19/42 last night, as I just don't feel that I'm "over the hump" with 11/28/22 yet. My lack of a DST seems to be a big factor. I occasionally beat Decease on white damage as 11/28/22, and he normally destroys me because of the DST. The haste from the trinket added on to the already increased white damage from serrated should be a substantial difference. I might consider trying the spec again if I can ever get the damned thing to drop.

That is exactly how I felt Ippon, as I also respecced back to 19/42 after just one night of SSC because although the dps wasn't lacking, I just felt that I wasn't contributing enough to justify the loss in dps that I was receiving.

I convinced one of our rogues to respec into 13/26/22 (maces) today. He has both the Syphon and Dragonstrike for MH and the BT trash OH. Which MH should he use to maximize his DPS?

One thing noted before in this thread: The speed differential of the Mace will not make up for the DPS provided by dual-swords sword spec with a 2.6 MH. As the gathered data would suggest, one needs Sword Spec to keep the DPS on par w/ combat (or slightly below) and to be in something higher than a 10-man if you wish to gurantee full benefit of team DPS via Hemo charges spent.

The spec isn't going to "dominate" standard Combat. It does however provide a viable alternative for those wanting something different. Of course, it shines the most in situations where Rupture cycles can be employed consistently along side a feral Druid. Maces will very lkely provide lower than desireable results, based on our number crunching earlier in the thread.

Nice, that's a good questions that needs answering. I'm going to guess it will come down to how much the haste proc can do. Because the Syphon will hit harder overall (plus WF procs too).

Please let us know if he does any test runs.

This isn't meant to be a troll post, but I just don't get why so many people are so hot for having a build like this "work." Back at 60, a lot of people were looking for a viable raid Hemo build because they wanted it for PvP as well, and 50g was a lot of money. But now you can't stunlock a decent player 100-0 with Hemo. The vast majority of the weapons out there are suboptimal for Hemo in PvP. You lose the only real burst available to a PvP Hemo build (Cold Blood and Premed). You gain Prep and some stealth/opener talents, but in Arena you spend 98% of your time out of stealth, in combat. Then from the WWS posts we're seeing that with really excellent gear and situations it roughly breaks even with Combat, factoring in the debuff.

So why the hardon for a raid Hemo build? Is it just because people are desperate to be different?

The time we killed Onyxia with 10 people was dumb too.

I think it's pretty clear many if not all in there want to provide a raid utility as well as being able to do nearly the same damage as a combat build rogue.

So why not? If the hemo debuff can MORE then make up for the loss in damage when compared to combat builds doesn't that provide your guild with more damage on boss fights to down them faster? Why is that such a bad thing?

I'm sorry but it is really that hard to comprehend?

To explore the intricacies of the game, to try the unknown and succeed, to have part of your dps come from the hemo debuff if you have aggro issues due to an undergeared MT, to justify to raid leaders who won't let you spec 11/28/22 otherwise since they only preach what the book of 'all knowing fact' tells him/her, because this build scales better than combat.

What is your reason for staying combat?

Those that want an arena viable build and would not understand why you would throw away pvp viability to do the same personal dps and add a slight dps gain to others. (Mean while you lose some dps on non bleedable bosses)

Funny how a build with prep becomes a 1 trick pony(superior white damage) and a less versatile build overall in the different aspects this game as to offer.

Not everyone plays purely for pve and most players do not want to respec 2 times a night.


Arena pvp and good enough for pve all in 1 build.

Well obviously they wouldn't be the ones to spec this build. As for me I want to try it out because frankly I've been combat since TBC came out and I'd like a change. Mages can go arcane or fire, warlocks can go affliction or destro, hunters are viable as all 3 of their specs, every healing class (except paladins) has a viable raiding offspec or two, even warriors can spec for DPS. Meanwhile rogues can basically go combat swords or fist/sword (which is essentially the exact same playstyle) if they want to be optimal for raid DPS. Even combat daggers has taken a backburner. Basically change is good, I'm not willing to sacrifice any raid viability for that change, but it would be pretty nice to have a couple options.

Until there's solid proof that your second paragraph is at all accurate, asking why people are so insistent on it being good is a perfectly rational question.

And the hemo debuff isn't raid utility; all it is is damage. Don't mistake it for utility.

Ichichop I may give this a whirl this weekend in SSC.

Currently I raid with the Merciless gladiator swords (MH and OH) and I have both Syphon and Swifsteel Bludgeon as my pvp maces. Would you think 11/21/29 would be better for mace-equipped raiding hemo, or perhaps 11/28/22 (I was thinking of offhanding the Merc Glad Quickblade and going sword spec since my offhand mace is currently "enchanted" with a weapon chain for pvp).

Rerolled - I apologize, I have been comparing combat to the 11/28/22 build this week, here is the build:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Note that you can replace MoD with Opportunity but it is a very small dps increase.

Gummy, this thread has always been about PvE and only PvE. Others keep coming in here talking about PvP but that is NOT what the goal of this discussion.

Wodin two items about T6:

1) 6% extra damage on special attacks will be a very small overall dps increase, you might find that 11/28/22 still outdamages deep combat at that gear level. The 2 piece bonus benefits 11/28/22 more than combat.
2) Why isn't hemo on that list of special attacks? Another glaring Blizzard oversight?