Moonkin viability in 25 mans - Page 2

SonySwarm · 07/16/07, 12:29 PM

We have somewhat of a celebrity moonkin in our guild (Madrox). He has fairly decent gear (I think 3 pc T4, 2pc T5) and usually comes up top 3 in dps. I myself am a shadowpriest and loving having him and his crit aura (usually our caster group of death consists of him, me and 3 other mages). He has changed our guild mentality in regards to boomkins.

Oth · 07/16/07, 1:01 PM

I think I'd have to second that putting your lone shadow priest with your healer group is not nearly as useful as putting that same priest in a caster DPS group, especially a mage-heavy one.

david0925 · 07/16/07, 1:07 PM

I'm not a huge expert on guild composition in terms of every high end guild, but I believe that the lack of Moonkin Success in high end guild is probably the primary reason that guilds are not giving moonkin a shot. However, there are a lot of problems that Moonkins face especially in SSC and TK.

First of all, people don't really view Moonkin as a DPS class, but as a utility class. As a result, since Moonkin does not provide as much utiltiy as Feral spec (note I'm not trying to start a Feral vs Balance vs Resto fight here.) since Feral acts as an offtank, people are reluctant to bring them on raids. In fact, Moonkin actually puts out quite comparable DPS to mages when specced right and with a shadow priest while providing that extra 5% crit to the other 3 DPS casters in the group. For the shadow priest, crits on SW

and Mind Blast (if they use these two spells) means extra mana returned to the group. For the mages (especially Deep fire ones), extra crit means extra damage as well as mana regeneration.

Another big challenge moonkin face is the extreme lack of Leather Spellcasting gear that exist in the game (none in SSC/TK, i believe). This cause a big discomfort to the cloth casters that need to compete gear with a Leather wearer. Granted, crafted gears are probably best for both parties (the Moonkin and the Clothies), the reality that they need to compete for gear and clothies complain about it discourage raid leaders from bringing moonkins on raids.

Do I believe Moonkins are raid viable: definitely. Especially with a % party buff, the percentage returns are not declining as gear improve (versus static buffs such as Battle Shout, for example). However, it requires a extremely dedicated Moonkin (since Starfire is much more mana efficient in raids, tailored sets might be pretty necessary just as a starter set) and a very open-minded set of raiders (especially the clothies) and the raid leader.

• gwystyl · 07/16/07, 1:28 PM

The way to properly value the moonkin is to add up the dps he does on his own and the benefit he brings to your raid group. Our top damage group in the raid is the melee group (yes, our casters seem to be below potential but that's likely due to the fact that we have failed to properly synergize caster groups). The benefit of 3/3 Imp FF to DW melee is pretty significant since our melee have gear both assuming he's in the raid and not.

According to the rogue dps sheet, this simple buff on its own is worth 70 dps to me. 70 x 3 rogues = 210. I don' t know what the delta is for the enh. shaman or the DW warrior, but even assuming this is 0, that puts our chubby bird at 800+dps on average.

You'll have to pry my space chicken from my cold, dead hands.

david0925 · 07/16/07, 1:36 PM

Originally Posted by gwystyl

The way to properly value the moonkin is to add up the dps he does on his own and the benefit he brings to your raid group. Our top damage group in the raid is the melee group (yes, our casters seem to be below potential but that's likely due to the fact that we have failed to properly synergize caster groups). The benefit of 3/3 Imp FF to DW melee is pretty significant since our melee have gear both assuming he's in the raid and not.

According to the rogue dps sheet, this simple buff on its own is worth 70 dps to me. 70 x 3 rogues = 210. I don' t know what the delta is for the enh. shaman or the DW warrior, but even assuming this is 0, that puts our chubby bird at 800+dps on average.

You'll have to pry my space chicken from my cold, dead hands.

There is some iffiness by combining so called "damage brought" to the class bringing the debuffs. True, the damage increase will not have been possible without the class. But should we award the MT of all physical damage dealt due to sunder armor as his? By the same logic you would, but I rarely see that being awarded to the MT (or at least distributed evenly amongst all warriors). Another issue is that speccing Imp FF will lower the Moonkin's output (due to limited talent points), therefore providing the misconception that moonkins are not worthwhile in raids (again, I oppose this idea. Higher raid dps is all that matters, but people WILL look at damage meters and make hasty judgments like this).

Also it is important for the other classes to have a subset of gear (like 2-3 pieces) that they can swap in for more crit/AP and reduce hit to actually benefit from the 3% hit, assuming they're hit capped, but this is a given to most aware raiders.

Definitely not disagreeing with your general idea about moonkin's viability, but just have a slight disagreement about awarding the dmg done to debuff classes.

galzohar · 07/16/07, 2:10 PM

According to the rogue dps sheet, this simple buff on its own is worth 70 dps to me. 70 x 3 rogues = 210. I don' t know what the delta is for the enh. shaman or the DW warrior, but even assuming this is 0, that puts our chubby bird at 800+dps on average.

I would go again and make sure you really get 70 DPS from that. Your crit/hit need to be really low and you need to be doign purely white damage for 3% more hit to increase your DPS by 7% if you're doing 1000 DPS. If you're doing less than 1000 it only gets worse, and you need to do a lot lot lot more than 1000 DPS for me to believe you gain 70 DPS from 3% hit. Just doesn't sound real.

Let's really exajurate here - if a rogue does 1500 DPS with 70% of it being white with 90% chance to hit and 20% crit (low crit to again favor the moonkin), a 3% hit increase will increase white damage by 0.03/1.1=less than 3% white DPS increase. Now since it only applies to 70% of your DPS it's really a ~28-29 DPS increase. While this calculation is incredibly inaccurate, the errors in accuracy are FAR FAR from being enough to agree with a the "70 DPS increase from 3% hit" claim. And the fact is I gave the rogue stats that will greatly favor DPS increase due to hit, I wouldn't be surprised if an accurate calculation will show you gain even less from 3% hit.

Also I would check what you usually have in your caster group - we usually have a shadow priest and a resto shaman because of no elemental and the need for healers in the raid (although I'm considering pushing for getting a good elemental shaman - though these are really hard to come by as they will usually be ex-resto or ex-enhance with very poor elemental DPS gear). Shadow priest and resto shaman get very little from the crit aura, so only 2 classes actually get 5% crit increase. I estimate moonkin aura as ~56 (4%) DPS increase for my mage.

Overall it really really depends on group composition and the moonkin's actual DPS. If a moonkin in the caster group can sustain 90% (or very close to 90%) of a full-time caster DPS I'd say he's worth his raid slot no doubt. More than that and he's more than worth his raid slot. Less than that and I would think many times if the buffs really make up for it, is it gets more borderline with simply not being worth it. Also remember they can't AOE/CC as well as a mage/warlock on most fights, although you don't always need that anyway.

Caliane · 07/16/07, 3:16 PM

Balance is "viable" now.

But by no means on par with everyone else.
In the past, balance was a flat out black hole. You were marginally better then an empty raid spot.
Now adays, you can function as a raid member.

But if the question is, Are other classes better? The answer is yes.

The two most direct comparisons are elemental shaman and shadowpreist.
In a 1to1 damage comparison, the balance druid "should" beat both of those hands down.
Better damage coeffiecents, and gain more from class synergy buffs. "vamptouch/curse of shadows, etc"

But at the same time, those classes buff everyoen else far more then the balance druid. 5% crit aura is nice, but doesnt remotely compare to vamp touch or wrath of air/manaspring/totem of wrath.

The druids innervate is for himself. He will need it. The only real secondary utilty the balance druid has is offhealing, and rebirth. both of which come at a massive cost to damage however.
1 rebirth is an estimated 17000 damage lost in mana cost, nevermind time spent casting or the mana for shifting back into moonkin.

Mana constraints are a HUGE issue for balance still. A shadowpreist is almost required to function.
The good news here is mana burn is mostly constant, so as the druid gets better gear, this need dimishes.
By 4pc T5, and as they start collecting t6, the spriest partner isnt needed, wisdom/kings, and possibly just a mana spring is enough to last with the basic, starfire/IS rotation. Moonfire rotation might still needt hat extra mana.

If the druid knows what hes doing, he can perform in that role. you need to allow him to collect the right gear though. This means cloth in nonset slots. Glvoes, belt, boots, wrists. As well as neck, rings, trinkets.
They will never replace mages, as they have very poor aoe. Nor provide the debuffs to compensate for lock curses.

Caliane · 07/16/07, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by constantius

It's fairly trivial to go 15 points in Restoration and gain a 20% threat reducer. It's not enough, but it does help (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft).

Not trival at all actually.

The problem. the druid needs itensity, for mana regen while casting. right next to that talent.
Getting 3/3 intensity, and 5/5 sublty means 18 in resto.

This means you cant get the full 48 points in balance you need for those more or less essential raiding talents.

There are only 2 talent not considered 100% nessecary in balance.
Celestial focus and force of nature.
And this assumes you dont get imp FF, which is not very good.

1 point force of nature. Trees are very unreliable AI. Die to most aoe instantly.
But when they dont.
Treant - WWS
256 dps during up time.
3 casts-20,000 damage over 7min, 30 seconds. 44 dps or so in this instance.
37 dps sustained of zero threat damage using the 3min CD as the basis for dps. with a single instant cast, 1.5s global cooldown every 3 min..

Crap in many situations. But hard to argue with 1 talent point giving 37 dps sustained in many others.

Celestial focus: 15% chance for starfire stun. 70% antipushback.
The stun has no real raid purpose. But the pushback on wrath doesnt. Spitfire totems, tainted elementals, prince axes, Nightbane skels, lurker naga. any case of aoe damage to the raid, or where kiling something fast, where the druid is tanking, or just cant afford to be interrupted. its a utility talent. Threat reduction for void reaver, or antipushback for every fight were the druid might get pushback.
I used to use starfire to kill tainted elems. then I had a poisonbolt+forked lit delay my casts and let a tainted despawn on me. Now I use wrath on them 100% of the time.

mek · 07/16/07, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by Flamingcloud

We have a moonkin that out dps most of our mages on the average fight, brings an innervate, combat res, spot healing, and +5% crit aura etc. -15% threat is enough that you can deal above average damage on most fights without being threat capped.

Originally Posted by SonySwarm

We have somewhat of a celebrity moonkin in our guild (Madrox). He has fairly decent gear (I think 3 pc T4, 2pc T5) and usually comes up top 3 in dps. I myself am a shadowpriest and loving having him and his crit aura (usually our caster group of death consists of him, me and 3 other mages). He has changed our guild mentality in regards to boomkins.

I don't suppose either of you have any WWS parses you can provide?

• gwystyl · 07/16/07, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by david0925

... But should we award the MT of all physical damage dealt due to sunder armor as his? By the same logic you would, but I rarely see that being awarded to the MT (or at least distributed evenly amongst all warriors).

I rarely see anyone needing to justify the MT's presence.
:P

• gwystyl · 07/16/07, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

I would go again and make sure you really get 70 DPS from that. Your crit/hit need to be really low and you need to be doign purely white damage for 3% more hit to increase your DPS by 7% if you're doing 1000 DPS. If you're doing less than 1000 it only gets worse, and you need to do a lot lot lot more than 1000 DPS for me to believe you gain 70 DPS from 3% hit. Just doesn't sound real.

You're also missing the -610 armor effect of having the Imp FF up there. I didn't just pull the number from thin air, this is based on the most recent rogue dps sheet and the modeling, AFAIK, is correct. Surely the gain is less than the stated 70 dps b/c you never get to truly tank and spank the boss these days but the real number is sure to be within striking distance of that figure.

3% hit translates to roughly 20dps, the balance being credited to the armor reduction. Those numbers are *very* easy to derive and support.

galzohar · 07/16/07, 3:47 PM

Remember that the GCD costs the damage of a wrath or 1/2 a starfire, make sure to take that off of the treants total damage dealt.

Caliane · 07/16/07, 3:48 PM

Originally Posted by gwystyl

According to the rogue dps sheet, this simple buff on its own is worth 70 dps to me. 70 x 3 rogues = 210. I don' t know what the delta is for the enh. shaman or the DW warrior, but even assuming this is 0, that puts our chubby bird at 800+dps on average.

You'll have to pry my space chicken from my cold, dead hands.

Uhm. no.

Lets assume 1200 dps. Thats pretty high rogue dps right?
This is a WWS of anEJ void reaver kill. A very rogue friendly fight.
Wodin - WWS
Shows wodin as doing 1246 dps.

69% of his damage was "white". The rest was "yellow". he has more then 9% to hit, so his yellow damage is hit capped. 99% chance to hit.

Imp ff is going to increase his white chance to hit by 3%. 3% of the 69% of the 1264.
872dps. x.03=26
Thus give him an estimated 26 dps.

If your raid was VERY VERY rogue/dps warrior stacked, I could see this talent becoming useful. Otherwise, its too costly to the druid to justify.

Compare to a warlocks malediction which is a full 3% to Shadow/arcane or Frost/Fire. Aids the lock that cast it, most cases is a full3% dps increase, not a 3% chance to a portion of their damage, and more likely to benefit more dps in any one raid.

Also it should be noted.
Pets have a 16% chance to miss, hunter, lock and force of nature, that is not effected by melee or spell hit of the owner. This talent probably effects that, though Im not certain.

And while tanks only need 9% to hit for hit cap, hit is very hard to find on tanking gear, and thus impFF does have a valid argument for benefiting the MT's threat generation.

Kalman · 07/16/07, 3:48 PM

Originally Posted by gwystyl

You're also missing the -610 armor effect of having the Imp FF up there. I didn't just pull the number from thin air, this is based on the most recent rogue dps sheet and the modeling, AFAIK, is correct. Surely the gain is less than the stated 70 dps b/c you never get to truly tank and spank the boss these days but the real number is sure to be within striking distance of that figure.

3% hit translates to roughly 20dps, the balance being credited to the armor reduction. Those numbers are *very* easy to derive and support.

The -610 is not moonkin-specific; any druid can toss up FF, and should, so that damage effect isn't actually attributable to a moonkin. The gain for moonkin FF over normal FF is solely in the 3% hit. Not to mention a Dreamstate build could conceivably pick up Imp FF, leaving you with a healing druid with Imp FF.

galzohar · 07/16/07, 4:37 PM

Dreamstate druids cannot have both empowered touch and improved fairie fire which makes the whole dreamstate build pretty pointless. For a moonkin you can pick up imp FF with minimal DPS loss, making it a very worthwhile to pick talent. The question isn't if imp FF should be picked or not, it's the question if it makes the moonkin worth having in the raid or does he still lack total raid DPS increased per raid slot to be worth it.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Even if you move some talents around, the gain from imp FF is still probably bigger than what you would get from putting these points elsewhere.