[Rogue] Mechanics Testing Thread

• Aldriana · 07/16/07, 5:04 PM

I was looking through the rogue spreadsheet thread(s) today, and it occurred to me that there's really two separate things occurring within them, and I think it's hurting the usability of them.

Specifically, there are comments about the spreadsheet itself (which certainly belong in such a thread), and questions of general rogue mechanics. The difficulty is that having both these topics within the same thread was causing the thread to grow very quickly (approaching 10 pages per week) which meant that a lot of questions were getting asked repeated due to the question and it's answer getting buried under 5 pages of new responses, making it challenging for people to find (or so I would assume, based on the number of "what does 1s/5r cut mean" posts in that thread).

So it seems to me that it makes sense to split out the mechanics testing into it's own thread, and let the spreadsheet threads be more spreadsheet specific, so as to try to make the information a bit more usable and accessible. Hence, I'm starting a new thread (this one) for the mechanics information.

In terms of mechanics I'd like to see tested: following are a list of things that have been discussed at one time or another in various other threads, but I'm not aware of any final determination of an answer for them. Hence, I would be interested to see additional testing/analysis for the following pieces of information:

2) Similarly, proc rate on Romulo's Poison Vial?
3) Thundering Skyfire Diamond?
5) How much armor does a typical sundered raid boss have?
6) What, exactly, can proc off a Sword Spec attack, anyway?
8) What about Siphon of the Nathrezim?
9) What about Drakefist Hammer/Dragonmaw/Dragonstrike?
10) Blackout Truncheon?
11) The Bladefist?
12) What's the proc rate on Deathmantle 4/5?
13) What's the proc rate on the Twin Blades of Azzinoth set bonus?
14) What's the proc rate on Band of the Eternal Champion?

If people have other things they'd like to see tested, or if you have answers to some of these questions, please post and I'll update the list.

Conclusions Reached:

New answers in bold.

1) What is the proc rate on Dragonspine Trophy, anyway?
Dragonspine Trophy is a 1 PPM proc.

4) In what order is the damage boost from Relentless Earthstorm Diamond applied?
A: RED appears to stack multiplicatively, causing regular critical strikes to do 2.06 times regular damage instead of 2.0, and crits with Lethality doing 2.369 times regular damage instead of 2.3.

7) What's the proc rate on Rod of the Sun King?
The proc rate appears to be 1 PPM, or 4.5%.

15) What's the proc rate on Madness of the Betrayer?
Madness of the Betrayer is a 1 PPM proc.

Dontmindme · 07/16/07, 5:25 PM

I'd like to see testing with weapon skill over 365 vs. glancing blow. I recall seeing a couple combat logs that were showing only about 20-21% glancing blows for someone with 369 weapon skill. Glancing damage reduction looked normal, but it did appear that there *might* be approximately 1% fewer glances per skill above 365.

Granted this wasn't based on much data (maybe 2000 swings) and could just be a fluke, but it would be nice to know if there is more to it. All evidence points to no reduction up to 365, but I don't think there has been much testing in the more extreme weapon skill ranges.

Kapuras · 07/16/07, 6:01 PM

12) When I use Instant Poison instead of Deadly Poison What Offhand Speed I need to outdamage Deadly Poison?

I just thinking about that, when i see all the passive haste Items from Black Temple in conjunction with Dragonspine Trophy and other Items with haste proc effects.

• Aldriana · 07/16/07, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by Kapuras

12) When I use Instant Poison instead of Deadly Poison What Offhand Speed I need to outdamage Deadly Poison?

I just thinking about that, when i see all the passive haste Items from Black Temple in conjunction with Dragonspine Trophy and other Items with haste proc effects.

Well, that one, at least, I can address right off. See Rogue Gear Spreadsheet post 74.

Gogge · 07/16/07, 6:59 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

1) What is the proc rate on Dragonspine Trophy, anyway?

I did some testing back in april when I got it..

Single 1.3 speed dagger, white only:

Double 1.3 speed daggers, white only:

Might be somewhere around 0.6-0.7.

Originally Posted by Aldriana

5) How much armor does a typical sundered raid boss have?

I think the screen with lurker at 7800ish and various people kicking in SSC was pretty accurate in putting it at around 5k sundered and a bit over 4k with FF, although if anyone has better info I'm all ears. :wink:

Originally Posted by Aldriana

If people have other things they'd like to see tested, or if you have answers to some of these questions, please post and I'll update the list.

I wouldn't mind some rogues posting a combat log or two with WF totem buff (and weapon speeds) so we can determine if there is some cooldown mechanic, my own tests show it to be around half the weapon speed but I can't raid/play all that actively during summer so no extensive tests for me.

• Aldriana · 07/16/07, 7:26 PM

Originally Posted by Gogge

I did some testing back in april when I got it..

Single 1.3 speed dagger, white only:

Double 1.3 speed daggers, white only:

Might be somewhere around 0.6-0.7.

Right. My only gripe with those is the small sample size - at only 1k attacks, the variance is still pretty large. And we've seen proc rates reported ranging from .5 PPM up to 1.5 PPM or so, as I recall.

The secondary problem is that all attacks are performed at the same speed; to determine if it's a PPM or a % proc, I'd really like to see 5k+ attacks with two weapons of very different speeds.

Again: there's been research on it, but I don't recall any firm conclusion being reached.

I think the screen with lurker at 7800ish and various people kicking in SSC was pretty accurate in putting it at around 5k sundered and a bit over 4k with FF, although if anyone has better info I'm all ears. :wink:

I measured about 4.5k for sundered Tidewalker by kicking, but I've heard other people report other results. Also, it varies some from boss to boss; I wouldn't mind seeing values for 5 people kicking each raid boss in SSC and beyond, just to get a sense for what the numbers look like.

koaschten · 07/16/07, 8:05 PM

I guess i will never get tired linking this pic

Spades · 07/16/07, 8:23 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

2) Similarly, proc rate on Romulo's Poison Vial?

Seems to me with some basic testing to be around 3PPM. I'm going to grab Procwatch and check it out for real in the next couple of days.

Ossy · 07/16/07, 8:31 PM

Originally Posted by Dontmindme

I'd like to see testing with weapon skill over 365 vs. glancing blow. I recall seeing a couple combat logs that were showing only about 20-21% glancing blows for someone with 369 weapon skill. Glancing damage reduction looked normal, but it did appear that there *might* be approximately 1% fewer glances per skill above 365.

Granted this wasn't based on much data (maybe 2000 swings) and could just be a fluke, but it would be nice to know if there is more to it. All evidence points to no reduction up to 365, but I don't think there has been much testing in the more extreme weapon skill ranges.

I guess I could do some logs from SSC/TK Clearing next week. I got 371 weapon skill as we speak but havent really looked at the glancing % in a long time.

Dampfbrumsel · 07/17/07, 5:12 AM

1) I did some testing a few months ago, but I don't have the raw number anymore. Here's what I recall though: At all time I was dual wielding, for the first twentyish minutes two fast daggers (1.3 each), and then again two swords (2.4 if I recall correctly) for roughly the same amount of time. In both cases I ended up with ProcWatch showing 2.3 ppm for "Haste". "You gain Haste." did not work for some reason, so anyway, that should actually be 1.15 ppm for DWing, which is pretty close to what Gogge has posted.

Kapuras · 07/17/07, 5:29 AM

@Gogge:

I say your ProcWatch for Dragonspine Trophy is wrong, because it doesn't count selfrefreshing procs, looking here

So the best way to model the Dragonspine Trophy is, to parse the combatlog. I will do this today and post the results here.

Itzelsnitch · 07/17/07, 7:26 AM

I came up with this for DST in two old post. Conclusion is, that it has 1.7 PPM:

To calculate the average haste given, one could simply take the expected hits within a given time, for example 1k hits with a 2.0 speed weapon over 2.000 seconds, and compare it to the actual amount of hits made when using DFT. This skips the PPM part and simply converts it into a useful haste ratio.
The test would have to be done in several cases: Auto attack, and 3s/5e cycles (SS) and a similar 100% SnD uptime with daggers. Each result would be different, so each spec type will generally have its own value due to the different amount of hits made.
It would probably be needed to test with different weapon speeds too :o.

Seems like the only practical way to get that damn rating, but it would require lots of sample data - I haven't picked the trinket up yet (hope it drops tonight), so others would need to test this.

UPDATE!
I am running through different ProcWatch caps in the DST Analysis thread. Here's some results:

Autoattack:
3.8 spd weapon: 655/(38*60/3.8) = 1.09 = 9% more attacks = 9*10.5 ~= 95 haste rating
1.6 spd weapon: 1165/(28.5*60/1.6) = 1.09 = 9% more attacks = 9*10.5 ~= 95 haste rating

Aha! Same result! A preliminary conclusion would be, that when using autoattack, DST has an average value of 95 haste rating when doing autoattack.

Leaving the rest to someone with more time on their hand to calculate the average hits for specific cycles within a certain time and come with some results.

DST is currently modelled as a flat +haste value, which of course isn't viable, but as I said, then it's a point in the right direction. If it has an average haste of +9%, it would have a 29% uptime, which means 17.45 seconds/minute, which translates into a PPM of ~1.7!
Notice how Procwatch is giving the values 1 and 0.8 by simply counting the amount of procs, while leaving renewed buffs out, and comes up with such low values! And, notice again, how the exact same average haste (9%) on the two weapons results in such huge differences in the recorded and the actual PPM's.

Could we mathematically conclude a 1.7 procrate according to my calculations? Any flaws?

(God damn I'm good :P)

Facktotum · 07/17/07, 7:30 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

I was looking through the rogue spreadsheet thread(s) today, and it occurred to me that there's really two separate things occurring within them, and I think it's hurting the usability of them.

Specifically, there are comments about the spreadsheet itself (which certainly belong in such a thread), and questions of general rogue mechanics. The difficulty is that having both these topics within the same thread was causing the thread to grow very quickly (approaching 10 pages per week) which meant that a lot of questions were getting asked repeated due to the question and it's answer getting buried under 5 pages of new responses, making it challenging for people to find (or so I would assume, based on the number of "what does 1s/5r cut mean" posts in that thread).

So it seems to me that it makes sense to split out the mechanics testing into it's own thread, and let the spreadsheet threads be more spreadsheet specific, so as to try to make the information a bit more usable and accessible. Hence, I'm starting a new thread (this one) for the mechanics information.

In terms of mechanics I'd like to see tested: following are a list of things that have been discussed at one time or another in various other threads, but I'm not aware of any final determination of an answer for them. Hence, I would be interested to see additional testing/analysis for the following pieces of information:

1) What is the proc rate on Dragonspine Trophy, anyway?
2) Similarly, proc rate on Romulo's Poison Vial?
3) Thundering Skyfire Diamond?
4) In what order is the damage boost from Relentless Earthstorm Diamond applied?
5) How much armor does a typical sundered raid boss have?
6) What, exactly, can proc off a Sword Spec attack, anyway?
7) What's the proc rate on Rod of the Sun King?
8) What about Siphon of the Nathrezim?
9) What about Drakefist Hammer/Dragonmaw/Dragonstrike?
10) Blackout Truncheon?
11) The Bladefist?

If people have other things they'd like to see tested, or if you have answers to some of these questions, please post and I'll update the list.

Tell me how I can test the proc rate on Rod of the Sun King and I will do it with pleasure

Karmon · 07/17/07, 7:51 AM

I think we need to reexamine hit/skill and boss misschance again.

What I have atm is only annecdotical evidence but nevertheless:
When we started SSC I was 15/41/5 combat dagger. I usual watch my performance with Recap (the hawksy version that uses Parserlib from ACE2 plus the FixLogstings addon; I use a german client).
For the autoattack my missrate against bosses varied around the expected 1.17% with 297 hitrating.

Out of curisoity last week I repeced to 41/20/0 mutilate build (I was trying to show that in realworld raids
it can hold up against combat dagger)
When I looked at my missrate against Hydross (we needed 4 attempts that night :/) for all 4 trys my
hitrate for autoattacks hoverd around 3.8%, the worst try was 4.2% the best 3.6% (Yes it is only hits.
No doges/parries; I looked into the detaile breakdown page)
All trys had around 800ish total swings.
That is way lower I'd expected ; around 2.17% because of the loss of Weapons Expertise.

Now if I assume bossmiss scales with 0.8% per level and hit/skill is 0.2% the observations can be explaind.
(well yes I know 800 swings is a too small samplesize but still my gut feeling says there is something fishy).

Hanos · 07/17/07, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Karmon

Now if I assume bossmiss scales with 0.8% per level and hit/skill is 0.2% the observations can be explaind.
(well yes I know 800 swings is a too small samplesize but still my gut feeling says there is something fishy).

Are you sure that isn't including dodges and parries? If the way your guild does Hydross is anything like mine there is a decent chance he is turned towards you atleast occationally.

Personally, I am really curious about this because I am wondering how Gloves of the Searing Grip Compare to Deathmantle (as well as Netherblade vs Grips of Deftness). Right now the numbers suggest that in most situations the set pieces would be better.

Over the past week or so I have been intentionally running below the hit cap just to see if playing the odds would increase my DPS. Unfortunately there isn't a lv 73 mob that you can easily test this on to determine exactly how much Weapon Skill increases your hit/crit rate or how much it decreases your targets chance to dodge/parry/block.

Regarding dodge/parry/block I think the best thing would be to get some long WWS Reports from a tank with a decent amount of +weapon skill.

However I will try tracking the results that myself and one of our rogues (human) using Spiteblade/Latros has vs the 2 rogues without the additional 3+ weaponskill on boss fights to see what the affect on dodge is, as far as parry and block we can't reliably test that without going suicidal, but then again it doesn't affect our DPS calculations anyway, since we should assume that we are always behind the boss anyway.