Elitist Jerks [Rogue] Mechanics Testing Thread

07/21/07, 7:08 AM   #31
RPZip
Von Kaiser

Tauren Warrior

Illidan
 4) In what order is the damage boost from Relentless Earthstorm Diamond applied?
The beauty of being multiplicative is that it shouldn't matter.

Ex: Rogue without Lethality crits. 100 + (100) = 200% damage.
Rogue with Lethality crits. 100 + (100 * 1.3) = 230% damage
Rogue with Lethality and Relentless Metagem crits. (100 + (100 * 1.3)) * 1.03 = 103 + (100 * 1.3) * 1.03 = 103 + 103 * 1.339 = 236.9.

No matter what way you slice it, the answer should be the same.

 07/21/07, 12:57 PM #32 • Aldriana Mike Tyson   Aldriana Night Elf Rogue   Doomhammer Perhaps "order" wasn't quite the right word. The question is whether it stacks additively or multiplicatively. When I first saw Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, my assumption was that it applies the same way that Lethality does, i.e., a crit, instead of doing 200% damage, it would do 100 + (100 * 1.03) = 203% damage, or 100 + (100 * (1 + .3 + .03) = 233% damage with lethality. However, it could also stack multiplicatively, and do (100 + 100) * 1.03 = 206% damage, or (100 + 100 * 1.3) * 1.03 = 206.9% with lethality. Note that one of these results yields twice the damage result of the other, so it's sort of important to the quality of the item to figure out which is correct. It should be pretty easy to test, though; just go kill rats with a low-range weapon with and without a RED equipped (but the same AP) and compare the damage ranges. I'd do it myself except I don't have a RED in any helm at the moment.
07/21/07, 11:51 PM   #33
Pork
Glass Joe

Troll Rogue

Dalvengyr
 Originally Posted by Aldriana Perhaps "order" wasn't quite the right word. The question is whether it stacks additively or multiplicatively. When I first saw Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, my assumption was that it applies the same way that Lethality does, i.e., a crit, instead of doing 200% damage, it would do 100 + (100 * 1.03) = 203% damage, or 100 + (100 * (1 + .3 + .03) = 233% damage with lethality. However, it could also stack multiplicatively, and do (100 + 100) * 1.03 = 206% damage, or (100 + 100 * 1.3) * 1.03 = 206.9% with lethality. Note that one of these results yields twice the damage result of the other, so it's sort of important to the quality of the item to figure out which is correct. It should be pretty easy to test, though; just go kill rats with a low-range weapon with and without a RED equipped (but the same AP) and compare the damage ranges. I'd do it myself except I don't have a RED in any helm at the moment.
Tested this out on an undead mob to avoid additional modifiers (i.e. Murder, Beast Slaying):

Weapon: Blacksmith Hammer - 1-2, 2.0, .8 DPS
AP: 1638 = 117.0 DPS (used a multiple of 14 to avoid potential rounding issues)

Non-Crits: 159, 160

Projected Crits:
d + (d * m) = 322.77, 324.80
(d + d) * m = 327.54, 329.60

Actual Crits: 329, 330

Looks like the modifiers are multiplicative as far as I can tell.

 07/24/07, 7:01 PM #34 • Aldriana Mike Tyson   Aldriana Night Elf Rogue   Doomhammer Updated the initial post with the answers that have been determined so far. There were only two I felt confident in the answer for, although there's a couple others we've seen some preliminary results for that I think we're getting close to having an answer for. Again, if you have data sets that would help, please post them. If you'd like to test one of these but don't know how, post in this thread or send me a PM, and I'll give you an idea of what sort of testing would be helpful.
 07/28/07, 8:15 AM #35 Dampfbrumsel Von Kaiser     Dampfbrumsel Undead Rogue   Anub'arak (EU) Just come to think of it, how are parries and dodges handled during the data collection? I don't know if I got this straight, but this kind of data is measued in procs per minute assuming a 100% chance to hit, right? Since that can hardly be achieved against regular mobs, your hit chance is probably around 98% for the blasted lands servants. Hence ProcWatch will not give you the actual proc chance of the effect, but rather an individual value, which you will have to extrapolate depending on the amount of swings that did not hit. So how has this been handled so far?
 07/28/07, 1:47 PM #36 Oie Glass Joe   Oie Gnome Rogue   Chromaggus Okay, so I was going to get more data, but after my first two tests it seemed too good to be coincidence so I thought I would go ahead and post what I found now. I conducted the tests on Blasted Lands mobs and in all samples had 0 misses/dodges/paries. Using procwatch and the macro to cancel the haste buff as soon as it came up, I found the following results: Using dual 1.3 speed weapons, with no additional haste effects: Hits: 12194 Procs: 512 Time: 1:50:29 Hits/proc: 23.8 Procs/Min: 4.6 I repeated this using dual 2.6 speed weapons, althought these were enchanted with mongoose: Hits: 17656 Procs: 1412 Time: 5:03:27 Hits/proc: 12.5 Procs/Min: 4.6 Now, obviously, procwatch counts each proc twice, so for dual wield autoattacking, it seems to be 2.3 ppm. I plan to do a bit more testing, but seeing as how "good" these initial results were, I wanted to get them out them quickly.
07/28/07, 2:33 PM   #37
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson

Night Elf Rogue

Doomhammer
 Originally Posted by Trishnakovic Just come to think of it, how are parries and dodges handled during the data collection? I don't know if I got this straight, but this kind of data is measued in procs per minute assuming a 100% chance to hit, right? Since that can hardly be achieved against regular mobs, your hit chance is probably around 98% for the blasted lands servants. Hence ProcWatch will not give you the actual proc chance of the effect, but rather an individual value, which you will have to extrapolate depending on the amount of swings that did not hit. So how has this been handled so far?
The blasted lands mobs are something like -15 levels relative to the effective level (including weapon skill) of most rogues. As such, they don't tend to dodge or parry very much. In fact, in all my time testing against them, I don't think I've ever seen them do so.

In terms of how it would be handled should it happen: I don't use the PPM number generated by ProcWatch; I count the number of hits and the number of procs, and work out my own math. So I don't think this would be a particular concern even if it did happen.

 Originally Posted by Oie Okay, so I was going to get more data, but after my first two tests it seemed too good to be coincidence so I thought I would go ahead and post what I found now. I conducted the tests on Blasted Lands mobs and in all samples had 0 misses/dodges/paries. Using procwatch and the macro to cancel the haste buff as soon as it came up, I found the following results: Using dual 1.3 speed weapons, with no additional haste effects: Hits: 12194 Procs: 512 Time: 1:50:29 Hits/proc: 23.8 Procs/Min: 4.6 I repeated this using dual 2.6 speed weapons, althought these were enchanted with mongoose: Hits: 17656 Procs: 1412 Time: 5:03:27 Hits/proc: 12.5 Procs/Min: 4.6 Now, obviously, procwatch counts each proc twice, so for dual wield autoattacking, it seems to be 2.3 ppm. I plan to do a bit more testing, but seeing as how "good" these initial results were, I wanted to get them out them quickly.
30k hits.... wow. I salute your data collection abilities.

Well, lets see here. 256 procs in 12194 attacks is a 2.10% proc rate, with a standard deviation of .13%, which means the true proc rate lies between 1.85% and 2.35% with 95% confidence, which, with 1.3 speed weapons, equates to between .854 and 1.085 PPM.

Meanwhile, 706 procs in 17656 hits is a 4.00% proc rate, with a standard deviation of .15%, yielding a true proc rate between 3.71% and 4.29% (again, 95% confidence). With 2.6 speed weapons, this equates to a true proc rate between .856 and .990 PPM.

So, observations:

1) It's pretty clearly not a flat percent chance.
2) It's almost certainly a PPM
3) Right now, the best guess under the "round numbers are a good thing" rule would be 1 PPM. Under the hypothesis that it is a 1 PPM proc, the first data set is about half a standard deviation from the mean (.51, if you want to be precise), and the second data set is 2.18 standard deviations from the mean. Now, 2.18 standard deviations has a significance value of 2.96% - that is, 2.96% of the time the data will be at least 2.18 standard deviations from the mean. So that number, while outside of our ideal range, isn't totally out of the blue, either.
4) The other thing that comes to mind is that this method of testing might not totally eliminate overlapping procs; if, for instance, both weapons attacked at the same time, they could, theoretically, proc at the same time, which wouldn't show up here. So it's not inconceivable to me if these numbers are *slight* underestimates of the true proc rate, which would put the 1 PPM theory in better shape.

So, on the whole? This data points pretty strongly toward 1 PPM. Any objections to taking this as the accepted proc rate?

 07/28/07, 3:15 PM #38 Oie Glass Joe   Oie Gnome Rogue   Chromaggus As for #4, that actually came to mind for a specific reason. During my 1.3 speed weapon tests, the attacks did not line up, something I didn't really give any thought to at first. When I came around for the 2.6 test, I noticed almost immediately that, to my naked eye, the offhand/mainhand attacks seemed perfectly in sync (made blatantly obvious because of the noticeably long 2.6 wait time in between attack sequences), and the idea of Dragonspine double procing at the same instant was something that bothered me a bit but that I dismissed, probably ill advisably now that you bring it up. Also of note, which I didn't think of at the time I was writing my first post, most of my gear had broken by the end of my 5 hour auto-attack marathon, and I recall seeing some misses, though I wasn't paying particularly close attention (can you blame me?). I'm fairly certain the gear breaks did not start to crop up until at least 4.5 hours into the collection, so I thought it negligible at the time. 1 PPM sounds good to me. I'm still up for collecting a few more samples if you feel it would help. I have double 1.5 speed weapons, 2.8 speeds, and I could probably get something in the middle range (say, 2.0).
 07/28/07, 3:34 PM #39 • Aldriana Mike Tyson   Aldriana Night Elf Rogue   Doomhammer I'm certainly not going to say no to more data, so if you feel like testing further, go right ahead. More data is always better than less data .
07/28/07, 3:58 PM   #40
songster
Chief Passenger

Gnome Rogue

Earthen Ring (EU)
 Originally Posted by Oie As for #4, that actually came to mind for a specific reason. During my 1.3 speed weapon tests, the attacks did not line up, something I didn't really give any thought to at first. When I came around for the 2.6 test, I noticed almost immediately that, to my naked eye, the offhand/mainhand attacks seemed perfectly in sync (made blatantly obvious because of the noticeably long 2.6 wait time in between attack sequences), and the idea of Dragonspine double procing at the same instant was something that bothered me a bit but that I dismissed, probably ill advisably now that you bring it up.
Well, we can guesstimate it. 1 ppm on a 2.6 speed weapon comes out at a 4.33% proc rate per hit, or 0.1877% chance of a double proc. You have 17656 hits in the test, which is actually ~8828 "double hits" if we neglect the edge effects from misses, dodges, etc.

That means the expected number of double procs is 16.57, under the assumption that it is indeed 1 PPM. That gives a "correction factor" of 722/706 to the values calculated in #37, indicating that the 95% limits on the true proc rate are .875 and 1.01 PPM. Looking even more promising.

 07/28/07, 4:05 PM #41 tsigo Don Flamenco     Tsigo Undead Priest   No WoW Account Here's some 4pc T5 data. Used the macro to cancel Coup de Grace instantly. Kamien - WWS 36 procs in 2094 landed melee attacks. Definitely no internal cooldown. ```WoWCombatLog.txt (2339):7/28 15:49:33.024 You gain Coup de Grace. WoWCombatLog.txt (2346):7/28 15:49:34.613 You gain Coup de Grace. WoWCombatLog.txt (2377):7/28 15:49:48.260 You gain Coup de Grace. WoWCombatLog.txt (2399):7/28 15:49:57.645 You gain Coup de Grace.``` And just for fun you can see some Skyfire Swiftness procs there too.
 07/28/07, 5:19 PM #42 bredar Glass Joe   Bredar Night Elf Rogue   Shattered Hand I heard there's a cap to +haste. Something along the lines you can't go below a certain weapon speed that's hard coded in the game. Is this true or false?
07/28/07, 6:38 PM   #43
Telani
Von Kaiser

Human Rogue

Blackhand
 Originally Posted by bredar I heard there's a cap to +haste. Something along the lines you can't go below a certain weapon speed that's hard coded in the game. Is this true or false?
False, unless the cap is extremely low. I've seen weapon speeds as fast as .19.

 07/28/07, 8:03 PM #44 Delore Glass Joe   Delore Night Elf Rogue   Shattered Hand I've been looking around for the hit cap for rogues is and I found it. To my knowledge it it 308 hit rating if you have 5/5 Precision and 2/2 Weapon Expertise. Now doesn't it make sense to go for this hit cap first to max out the potential of your crit, AP, and procs like trinkets and combat potency(you never miss)? How come high end rogues, for example, in Nihilum aren't even close to the cap and waving around 250? Can anyone explain please?
 07/28/07, 8:28 PM #45 • Aldriana Mike Tyson   Aldriana Night Elf Rogue   Doomhammer As a general rule, any statement of the form "you should go for X before worrying about Y" is wrong. Yes, hit is a powerful stat, and yes, it is generally desirable to be up near the hit cap. However, it's all a matter of tradeoffs, and if you get enough AP, Crit, or other stats to compensate the loss of hit, it can be worth it. In particular, T5 and above gear tends to be light on +hit relative to Karazhan + T4 level gear; as such, any rogue approaching this level of gear will tend to find their hit dropping to around 250, but picking up huge gobs of other stats that more than compensates for the loss. Last edited by Aldriana : 08/06/07 at 5:31 PM.

 Elitist Jerks [Rogue] Mechanics Testing Thread