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Old 07/17/07, 1:31 PM   #16
Ilmater
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Zul'Jin
Originally Posted by Igniter View Post
Enhancement shaman or some other dps class? 06/07/07 7:45 PM
[Shaman]The State of Raiding Enhancement Shaman 06/06/07 1:34 PM
[Shaman] Enhancement and MP5 05/08/07 1:56 PM
Shaman Enhancement DPS spreadsheet 04/17/07 9:34 AM
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

To name a few.


But in adding my own two cents, you should rarely ever hit top 6 in dps, unless it's rare circumstances, such as melee getting picked on gorefiend, or if you out gear them a ton. Adding 200+ dps to combat rogues is what we do best, not topping meters (but we can try!!).
Thanks, I'll take a look at all those threads.

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Old 07/17/07, 1:32 PM   #17
Malan
Mike Tyson
 
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Malan
Tauren Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Ok all this 5man stuff is your problem. You are not going to shine in a 5man without all the support from the other classes you get in a raid. Just push it out of your head that you need to be the shining star of a 5man. Am I sometimes top DPS in one? Sure. But not always. The real question you should be asking is why are you having to pug heroics and not getting guild support for gear you need.

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Old 07/17/07, 1:37 PM   #18
Igniter
King Hippo
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
<AHH>
Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by Ilmater View Post
So is it fair to say that the other guild that tells me that they clear Kara in 4 hours (I'm not sure that's possible unless you're running it with gear from SSC or The Eye, which they're not) are lying when they say an enhancement shaman is top of the damage meters in their raids? Or, if they're not lying, they're only right because the rest of the group isn't geared well?
For bosses, I can't think of a single one, barring a lucky string of crits on fathom, that can result in a top shaman ssc/tk. Lurker can be close, but thats about it. That guild might be adding in trash mobs as well? Or perhaps their shaman is really well geared compared to their rogues (daggers? assassination spec?)

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Old 07/17/07, 1:59 PM   #19
Azaranth
Von Kaiser
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Uther
Gah, I have Ilmater overload!

Your place on the DPS meters will vary widely from fight to fight. Last week I was #1 on Hydross (both our top rogues were awol that night, so I had a LOTP yay!), and then immediately after ended up #12 on Leotheras. You'll probably end up low on Gruul, but high on Magtheridon (since you probably won't be a cube clicker).

All I recommend is that you consider the environment. You won't always be high, but you should be competitive on a lot of fights. Enhancement shaman won't do more DPS than a well equipped, talented Rogue .. nor should they. But the dps you bring should be competitive, and the buffs that you offer your group more than justify your raid slot.

Edit @ Igniter: On morogrim, I think it's all about who gets tombed the least amount of times

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Old 07/17/07, 2:11 PM   #20
Igniter
King Hippo
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
<AHH>
Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by Azaranth View Post
Edit @ Igniter: On morogrim, I think it's all about who gets tombed the least amount of times
It's also an aoe heavy fight. An aoe class with a shadow priest can destroy quite easily, although tombs do matter, yes.

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Old 07/17/07, 2:41 PM   #21
Corripio
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Shaman
 
<ADD>
Hakkar
Well, getting a better OH will help considerably. Aim for the Boggspine Knuckles or save up for another gladiator's axe. Your stats are pretty good considering your gear. In 5 mans, im pretty much #1 or very close to the #1 person in dps depending on the situation. Plus, you don't really need CC. There are some heroics with casters or healers that you can burn down fast by yourself and require minimal healing. Knowing what you can 'off-tank' is something you'll have to figure out.

If you're barely pulling agro from a tank auto-attacking, wait a few seconds before you start. If that doesn't help, then your tank is considerably undergeared or doesn't know how to tank (like sunder spamming).

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Old 07/17/07, 3:06 PM   #22
Ilmater
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Zul'Jin
Originally Posted by Corripio View Post
Well, getting a better OH will help considerably. Aim for the Boggspine Knuckles or save up for another gladiator's axe. Your stats are pretty good considering your gear. In 5 mans, im pretty much #1 or very close to the #1 person in dps depending on the situation. Plus, you don't really need CC. There are some heroics with casters or healers that you can burn down fast by yourself and require minimal healing. Knowing what you can 'off-tank' is something you'll have to figure out.

If you're barely pulling agro from a tank auto-attacking, wait a few seconds before you start. If that doesn't help, then your tank is considerably undergeared or doesn't know how to tank (like sunder spamming).
This is what I'm talking about. Unless I'm with a bad group, I'm never #1, and honestly, I'm not really competitive most of the time (sometimes I'm lucky at the beginning, but not for a long period of time). However, I hear other people are, and I really don't see how.

As for the kind of quasi-off-tanking, I do that from time to time, for sure, but rogues are far better at it than I am, AND they can sap.

I'm not saying I hate my class, or I don't like playing it, or that I'm completely worthless in a raid (yes, dps warriors LOVE me, and rogues like me alright)... I'm just trying to level-set my expectations around how much damage I should be dealing versus other classes, and whether or not there will be times when I'm more desirable, because it ain't in Kara... some fights, yeah, but not the really tough ones.

Last edited by Ilmater : 07/17/07 at 4:03 PM.

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Old 07/17/07, 3:14 PM   #23
Corripio
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Shaman
 
<ADD>
Hakkar
Well, in a raid situation you are designed to do ~80% damage of rogues. Looking at the numbers during my 25 man raids, that seems about right. I'm about 15-20% behind them depending on the fight BUT the amount of dps I'm buffing them is considerable when compared to the other dps in the raid.

If you can't accept that, reroll or respec. With equally geared people, you won't be #1.

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Old 07/17/07, 3:51 PM   #24
GamingManiac
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Burning Blade
It's kind of obvious some people don't quite grasp what the whole topic is about here. The OP is at the "5 man heroics/instancing" level of raiding, not SSC/The Eye/etc, so his posts are relevant to 5 man groups, not raiding (so enough linking of WWS parses unless they're for Coilfang).

Anyway, back on topic. Yes, enhancement shamans are fantastic in raids, but as some of the posters already said, that is their niche, not 5 man groups. Without the appropriate buffs, a tank that's getting hit in the thousands, and tons of debuffs, you simply won't do competitive DPS against an equally geared/equally skilled DPS class. Just be patient, keep getting better gear (more specifically a real offhand) and when you get into 10-25m groups, watch your value skyrocket. For now, just grin and bear it.

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Old 07/17/07, 4:15 PM   #25
Ilmater
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Zul'Jin
Originally Posted by GamingManiac View Post
Just be patient, keep getting better gear (more specifically a real offhand) and when you get into 10-25m groups, watch your value skyrocket. For now, just grin and bear it.
Hey, for the record, I spent a LONG time farming mats for the Fel Edged Battleaxe, only to find out a week later that this piece of crap does more damage. I'm not happy about it, but what can you do?

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Old 07/17/07, 4:17 PM   #26
keltzed
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Earthen Ring
Some suggestions:

There are some places where your gear could be improved significantly, as people have mentioned. Getting a Runic Hammer or the equivalent axe as an offhand would be a big win, and some of the badges-bought gear from heroics would also help. Another thought is that the PvP gear you're using has a lot of resilience on it, which is of lesser utility in PvE.

Finding a spot in groups is a bit of a challenge, particularly if you're mostly dealing with PUGs. It gets a lot easier if you can develop some contacts who you run with regularly and show them the strengths that a shaman brings to the table. My suggestion there is to keep in mind that you're a hybrid, and play to your strengths. In particular, having a DPSer who's good about stepping in to off-heal when things get rough can be a huge win in tough 5-man instances, and if you can get good at that people will start noticing that runs go really well with you around. That's one area where a good shaman can really shine, but where you'll have to prove yourself somewhat because many peoples' opinions of shaman are molded by runs with less-skilled players (an effect which certainly isn't limited to the shaman class).

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Old 07/17/07, 4:37 PM   #27
Erongg
Great Tiger
 
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Lorentz
Troll Shaman
 
No WoW Account
My enhancement/resto grinding spec was very popular in 5-man instances in early TBC (a few weeks after hitting 70 I switched to Resto for raiding). I'd DPS for much of the instance, then switch to healing gear for the crab boss, or double Underbog Guy pull, etc. My DPS was decent but not great, but I brought some nice versatility to the group. I'd have LHW ready if the the tank took a spike, and Earthbind is nice for keeping people alive if a mob breaks loose. Bloodlust helps a lot on minute-long DPS race fights, so you more than make up your DPS deficiency there. Switching between healing and DPS on demand (whether pre-pull or during the fight) just makes instance runs smoother. Frequent interrupts help pull ranged mobs, help control the amount of damage the party takes, etc.

I never ran out-of-guild though; I just can't stand PUGs. Also, grouping without a paladin sucked, so I avoided that situation at all costs.

I also just realized that almost none of what I said had to do with DPS. I think that's telling: as you can tell by the thread title, you're looking for the wrong reasons to bring an enhancement shaman to a group.

Last edited by Erongg : 07/17/07 at 4:45 PM.


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Old 07/17/07, 5:19 PM   #28
mek
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Erongg View Post
My enhancement/resto grinding spec was very popular in 5-man instances in early TBC (a few weeks after hitting 70 I switched to Resto for raiding). I'd DPS for much of the instance, then switch to healing gear for the crab boss, or double Underbog Guy pull, etc. My DPS was decent but not great, but I brought some nice versatility to the group. I'd have LHW ready if the the tank took a spike, and Earthbind is nice for keeping people alive if a mob breaks loose.
Yes, this was my strategy as well to get regularly invited to heroics - a full set of resto gear gathered from quests/nonheroics which I put on for more healing intensive pulls/bosses. Helped a lot, definitely; and kiting is another way you can earn your 5man slot as in many instances it's as good as or better than real cc.

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Old 07/17/07, 5:20 PM   #29
everwatch
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Death Knight
 
Bronzebeard
In my experience you are limited in Heroics as many have said here. Your ideal situation is going to be with a Paladin for Salvation, and then a Tankadin or Feral tank. They have higher mutli target threat gen, so typically speaking they will give you more room to open up after the first mob is down. Your threat generation is your biggest issue.

To modify that keep in mind you can decrease some of your casts which have no talented threat modifier and you can avoid using SR at threat sensitive times. Also trade your threat out to other mobs if you have 2+ targets alive. Switch targets for 2-4 seconds once a tank has established agro to drop a couple of hits on another target before switching back to the main kill target. It will allow you to drop additional dps without running your threat cap at all times. It's the same concept as Locks dropping dot's on other mobs in the fight.

Sadly, I am an Ex-Enhancement Shaman who respec'd to Elemental. My totem was poor, and I had a poor trinket as well. But everything else was damn good recently. Got my T5 helm, DW'ing Decapitator and Netherbane, etc... But I found 2 problems I did not know what to do about. I was threat capped on any mob that was a "trash" mob. I could only truly open up on bosses. And also, without the tools that Rogues have available, I had serious survivability issues. But even with doing everything I found on average I could not consistently ever stay in the top 5 dps in raids. Which is reflected in 5 man heroics as well where you don't get as much support or buffs from your raid members.

But I can tell you this as an upside. I typically in a raid was grouped with 3 rogues. Breaking down the % of their damage that was WF alone and nothing else, that total damage added into my total *always* put me in the top 3 dps on every raid. Enhancement is aptly name, because a lot of your role is involved with enhancing your party.

If you want to have the high numbers for *just you* then go Elemental. If you wanna really help the raid with the Rogues, then Enhancement is 100% solid. But you'll have to live with your threat cap and deal with it. As far as Resto...if you're Enhancement I imagine you want to be dps...so I'll leave that be.

If you can't live with your personal numbers being lower and being a support dps role, then you may need to readdress your class and/or spec. As Enhancement, 5 man runs will never be your strong point. Soloing and Raids are where you shine, and you shine as a support dps role.


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Old 07/17/07, 5:35 PM   #30
Ilmater
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Zul'Jin
Originally Posted by keltzed View Post
Some suggestions:

There are some places where your gear could be improved significantly, as people have mentioned. Getting a Runic Hammer or the equivalent axe as an offhand would be a big win, and some of the badges-bought gear from heroics would also help. Another thought is that the PvP gear you're using has a lot of resilience on it, which is of lesser utility in PvE.
As I said before, I got the equivalent axe, but found out that it did less dps than this does. By a lot.

As for the PvP gear, I realize the resilience uses some of the item budget and is utterly useless in PvE, but I challenge you to find pieces with better AEP. The only bracers better in Kara or before are Bracers of Maliciousness - Items - World of Warcraft and Shard-bound Bracers - Items - World of Warcraft. Not much there. The only boots pre-kara better than those are the Shadowstep Striders - Items - World of Warcraft from Heroic Arc (ran it a few times with no success yet).

Finding a spot in groups is a bit of a challenge, particularly if you're mostly dealing with PUGs. It gets a lot easier if you can develop some contacts who you run with regularly and show them the strengths that a shaman brings to the table. My suggestion there is to keep in mind that you're a hybrid, and play to your strengths. In particular, having a DPSer who's good about stepping in to off-heal when things get rough can be a huge win in tough 5-man instances, and if you can get good at that people will start noticing that runs go really well with you around. That's one area where a good shaman can really shine, but where you'll have to prove yourself somewhat because many peoples' opinions of shaman are molded by runs with less-skilled players (an effect which certainly isn't limited to the shaman class).
I personally feel that I am extremely good at playing the hybrid spot-healing role, and I'm very aware of fights where I'm most useful in that capacity. Sepethrea for one, I can really shine because healers can't always be in range of those taking damage. However, warlocks are almost a MUST here (at least my server thinks they are), and mages are highly recommended, so I have to fight for that last spot with a lot of other classes. I mention this to show that, while I feel I play my class well and work always to get better when I can, it's still really difficult to find a group.

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