[Boss Mechanics] Threat Knockbacks

Athinira · 07/19/07, 4:49 AM

I haven't been able to find any info on this on wowwiki or using the search function, so ill ask here in the hope that some people might know something about this or have done some testing on it.

It is in regards to agro Knockbacks. Now, ignoring the "dragon knockbacks" also commonly known as Wing Buffet, how does normal agro knockback works in regards to avoidance. From the titbits of info i have gathered over time, which i in no way can confirm, i have heard that knockbacks can miss and be dodged, but cannot be parried (block is already out of the question in this regard). The reason im asking is that as a feral druid in a raid buffed scenario, my dodge is usually a good tad higher than our prot warriors (around 12% unbuffed and 18% raid buffed), and i thought it potentially might come in useful as a feral tank.

If anyone has more information on this i would be very happy for any info or testing you can provide.

Roana · 07/19/07, 5:26 AM

I have parried Knock Away, Uppercut, Force Punch, what have you (there are a ton of abilities that have a knockback effect). I've never seen a special ability that could be dodged, but not parried (though there are plenty that cannot be blocked and there are quite a few that go off even if completely blocked).

sp00n · 07/19/07, 5:40 AM

I believe anything that can be dodged can also be parried, and vice versa.

At least I have not seen any contradicting evidence (and yes, I have already parried cleaves).

Athinira · 07/19/07, 5:47 AM

I have parried Knock Away, Uppercut, Force Punch, what have you (there are a ton of abilities that have a knockback effect).

Well i was well familier with dodging attacks like Uppercut, but the info about Knock Away and Force Punch is exactly the stuff im looking for.

Anybody else with more info is still welcome to post.

Zurgat · 07/19/07, 5:47 AM

Our tanks regularly dodge Void Reaver's knockback, and keep tanking like nothing happened.
Though i'm not sure whether parrying, or blocking the attack will have the same effect.

There seem to be some exceptions however, the "Ethereal Thieves" in Karazhan hit you with a disarm debuff that (even if you're immune to disarm) still drops your threat. I'm not sure if that attack can be dodged, parried, etc.

Edit : Funny enough "Bloodfang gloves" didn't work, while our Arms warrior "is" immune trough talents..

• Chicken · 07/19/07, 5:52 AM

Originally Posted by Zurgat

There seem to be some exceptions however, the "Ethereal Thieves" in Karazhan hit you with a disarm debuff that (even if you're immune to disarm) still drops your threat.

That's actually a different mechanic. While Druids suffer no downside from getting disarmed, they are not immune to the effect: Disarm affects them, it's just utterly useless.

If you're truly disarm immune (By using a Weapon Chain, one of those Gloves that make you disarm immune, by being an Arms Warrior or simply by not having a weapon equipped) the Ethereal Thieves will instead Disarm the next person in melee range with highest threat.

I'm unsure whether their disarm can be parried or dodged; most other Disarms can be, but I haven't really had opportunity to test it recently as those are the only disarming mobs I can think of facing recently, and I simply unequip my weapon when tanking them to avoid the aggro reduction. Presumably I face disarming mobs more frequently, but it doesn't really make a difference for a Paladin with maxed out Unarmed skill to get disarmed, so I rarely notice it happening.

Anyway, less waffling about disarm, and more on the subject, there's a fair amount of different mechanics for threat clears. Most knockbacks appear to work on the "This will only reduce your threat if it actually hits you." mechanic, but something like the Ice Tomb used by Skeletal Ushers seems to work with more of a "It doesn't matter if it hits you, say goodbye to your threat." mechanic.

Mem · 07/19/07, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

Anyway, less waffling about disarm, and more on the subject, there's a fair amount of different mechanics for threat clears. Most knockbacks appear to work on the "This will only reduce your threat if it actually hits you." mechanic, but something like the Ice Tomb used by Skeletal Ushers seems to work with more of a "It doesn't matter if it hits you, say goodbye to your threat." mechanic.

Hm, regarding the Ice Tomb: we know that grounding totems can prevent a tomb. We also know that if the tomb hits the totem there won't be a aggro loss. Is this due to the fact that the tomb "suffers" from a redirection of the target? I haven't lost aggro on the ushers except if I was frozen or somebody overnuked. However I'm not sure the tomb can be resisted either.

I agree on the observation though that most reduces (if not all) only happen if the knockback effect is actually performed on the target.

Athinira · 07/19/07, 5:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mem

Hm, regarding the Ice Tomb: we know that grounding totems can prevent a tomb. We also know that if the tomb hits the totem there won't be a aggro loss. Is this due to the fact that the tomb "suffers" from a redirection of the target? I haven't lost aggro on the ushers except if I was frozen or somebody overnuked. However I'm not sure the tomb can be resisted either.

I agree on the observation though that most reduces (if not all) only happen if the knockback effect is actually performed on the target.

In regards to Ice Tomb, i have observed that if the tank gets the tomb and the second on agro list (taking the 110/130% roofs into account) is a hunter, the Usher will go back to the tank even if he is still tombed if the hunter successfully managed to pull off a feign death.

Roana · 07/19/07, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by Mem

However I'm not sure the tomb can be resisted either.

Ice Tomb can be resisted and it still results in losing aggro (though at times I've wondered whether it's actually an aggro reduction or the #2 person on the threat list has her aggro raised to exceed the tank's, similar to what Warbringer O'mrogg seems to do).

◊ Jameson · 07/19/07, 7:13 PM

Originally Posted by Roana

Ice Tomb can be resisted and it still results in losing aggro (though at times I've wondered whether it's actually an aggro reduction or the #2 person on the threat list has her aggro raised to exceed the tank's, similar to what Warbringer O'mrogg seems to do).

I haven't tanked them in a while, but I'm fairly certain I've reflected it (or the frost shock or whatever right before, either way, I didn't get tombed) as well. I don't believe it drops aggro if you reflect it. I didn't lose the mob.

Roana · 07/19/07, 7:56 PM

Originally Posted by bankythehack

I haven't tanked them in a while, but I'm fairly certain I've reflected it (or the frost shock or whatever right before, either way, I didn't get tombed) as well. I don't believe it drops aggro if you reflect it. I didn't lose the mob.

After going over my old combat logs, I think I have to relativize my statement: In the two cases of resists that I found that occurred, the tank did lose aggro; in the cases where Ice Tomb was reflected, it sometimes did result in a loss of aggro, but sometimes it didn't. This seems to indicate that an aggro reduction may indeed take place, but sometimes it is not strong enough to actually drop aggro.

7/7 19:30:46.062  You reflect Skeletal Usher's Ice Tomb.
7/7 19:30:47.090  Skeletal Usher's Ice Tomb fails. Skeletal Usher is immune.
7/7 19:30:47.233  Skeletal Usher attacks. You dodge.

7/7 19:31:36.529  You reflect Skeletal Usher's Ice Tomb.
7/7 19:31:36.559  Skeletal Usher's Ice Tomb fails. Skeletal Usher is immune.
7/7 19:31:36.670  Rogue hits Skeletal Usher for 221.
7/7 19:31:36.866  Skeletal Usher is afflicted by Sunder Armor (3).
7/7 19:31:37.202  Rogue hits Skeletal Usher for 132.
7/7 19:31:37.499  Skeletal Usher hits Rogue for 5294.