When is a spell not a spell?

dedmonwakeen · 07/27/07, 3:57 PM

I'd like to extend my raid simulator beyond support for caster dps only.

Currently the base spell_t class understands the various schools of magic, and how +dmg, +hit, +crit, +haste all interact. I use a multi-roll system: (1) hit/miss (2) crit/normal (3) dmg reduction from resistance

After doing a little research into white-vs-yellow damage, it seems that many of the YELLOW actions of the "physical dps" classes look much like spells. It is almost as if SPELL +dmg/+hit/+crit might still apply, but the "school" is PHYSICAL so I need to use armor reduction instead of spell resistance.

For example, would Demoralizing Shout benefit from spell +hit gear?
Would Revenge benefit from spell +dmg gear?

What I'm looking for is a generalization that is MOSTLY true with occasional exceptions:

"All yellow damage uses spell hit mechanics, except for xyz..."

Or is it the other way around:

"Physical dps classses use melee hit mechanics for all white AND yellow damage, except for xyz..."

I will do all the necessary research for each class as I come to it...... but it would be nice to have some idea of general behaviour when laying the groundwork for the software architecture.

Thanks in advance for any and all advice.

Borelgore · 07/27/07, 4:10 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

What I'm looking for is a generalization that is MOSTLY true with occasional exceptions:

"All yellow damage uses spell hit mechanics, except for xyz..."

Or is it the other way around:

"Physical dps classses use melee hit mechanics for all white AND yellow damage, except for xyz..."

Physical dps uses melee hit mechanics for yellow damage like heroic strike, sinister strike, mortal strike... off the top of my head I can't come up with a warrior or rogue yellow damage that doesn't obey melee hit mechanics.

Actually, one exception might be mocking blow, which deals some yellow physical damage but might be resistable like Taunt is--I'm sure any experienced warrior could clarify that, hopefully one will.

On the other hand paladins deal with more complicated combinations of mechanics for seal of command and (I'd imagine seal of blood, though I haven't ever used it). Seal of command procs are yellow Holy damage that can miss, be dodged, etc. However they can also be resisted through base spell resistance mechanics. I don't know if +spellhit would reduce the chance of a Seal of command resist, though I imagine it would, up to the hit cap of course.

Likewise, some hunter yellow damage is physical and some is spell. I believe that Arcane Shot crits like a physical attack but is resistable like an arcane attack. I'm no authority there though.

I have no experience with shamans.

csulok · 07/27/07, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by Borelgore

Physical dps uses melee hit mechanics for yellow damage like heroic strike, sinister strike, mortal strike... off the top of my head I can't come up with a warrior or rogue yellow damage that doesn't obey melee hit mechanics.

If my memory serves me well, taunt - although not dealing actual damage - doesn't work off melee hit chance, but spell hit chance, thus the lovely requirement for the Dreadnaught setbonus in Naxxramas.

How about blind though?

Trazhenko · 07/27/07, 4:37 PM

Originally Posted by csulok

If my memory serves me well, taunt - although not dealing actual damage - doesn't work off melee hit chance, but spell hit chance, thus the lovely requirement for the Dreadnaught setbonus in Naxxramas.

How about blind though?

Blind is a ranged attack, probably like shoot gun, but it applies a poison effect. I think it can be resisted, but off the top of my head I don't remember ever seeing it happen. I've definitely had them removed by poison cleansing totem, and before they fixed it to actually be a ranged attack, I had them dodged and parried, but that doesn't happen anymore.

Kallistae · 07/27/07, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by Trazhenko

Blind is a ranged attack, probably like shoot gun, but it applies a poison effect. I think it can be resisted, but off the top of my head I don't remember ever seeing it happen. I've definitely had them removed by poison cleansing totem, and before they fixed it to actually be a ranged attack, I had them dodged and parried, but that doesn't happen anymore.

Blind can be resisted only through talents such as Unyielding Faith, which increases your chance to resist Disorient effects. (You can try dueling another rogue and having him pop Cloak; he'll never resist it.) It can also miss when talents such as Arctic Winds are brought into play.

It's basically the same application mechanic as Serpent Sting.

Cromfel · 07/27/07, 4:46 PM

Paladin

Seal of Command
Proc performs as melee attack with 2 as crit multiplier and uses melee hit.
Judgement has also 2 as crit multiplier but uses spell hit.
(Both benefit from spell damage gear).

All other Paladin seals use spell hit and spell crit multiplier.
(SoB exception, I dont have information about it)

• frmorrison · 07/27/07, 4:49 PM

Taunt and Thunder clap (crits from Spell crit), Piercing Howl, and the Fear from a Warrior count as spells so spell hit would help them land.

I can't think of other Warrior "spells", all others are melee attacks.

Poisons from a Rogue should act as spells as well, all others are melee attacks.

Seal of Command and Seal of Blood are melee hits, but they can be partially resisted (just like Arcane shot). Judgments of those should be the same, as well as Hammer of Wrath.

Exorism/Holy Shock/all other Pally dps spells are spells and use spell crit/hit.

Fiola · 07/27/07, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Cromfel

Paladin

Seal of Command
Proc performs as melee attack with 2 as crit multiplier and uses melee hit.
Judgement has also 2 as crit multiplier but uses spell hit.
(Both benefit from spell damage gear).

Both also rely on melee Crit%. (Sorta implied by the 2x crit multiplier, but just to be explicit)

HoW seems to be a ranged attack. It only misses; deals 2x damage w/ melee (or ranged? worth a look) crit %, and gains from +dmg/heal.

All other Paladin seals use spell hit and spell crit multiplier.
(SoB exception, I dont have information about it)

AFAIK, JoB behaves like JoCommand.

Daenerys · 07/27/07, 4:54 PM

Originally Posted by Borelgore

Likewise, some hunter yellow damage is physical and some is spell. I believe that Arcane Shot crits like a physical attack but is resistable like an arcane attack. I'm no authority there though.

Arcane shot is magical damage, but follows the physical ruleset for the most part. It is magical, so it can be resisted and is not affected by armor. But it can miss or be blocked, just like other shots. It is affected by a Hunter's ranged crit, ranged AP, and crits at 200% (or 230% with talents).

Drundia · 07/27/07, 6:18 PM

I would make a theory that everything that is "resisted" is a spell and everything that "misses" is an attack. This can perhaps be seen alternatively that spells do not require weapons, while attacks require weapons, with some exceptions like shooting wand that looks quite hybridish.

dedmonwakeen · 07/27/07, 6:34 PM

Originally Posted by Daenerys

Arcane shot is magical damage, but follows the physical ruleset for the most part. It is magical, so it can be resisted and is not affected by armor. But it can miss or be blocked, just like other shots. It is affected by a Hunter's ranged crit, ranged AP, and crits at 200% (or 230% with talents).

Are there any "spells" that do physical damage?

Ie. Go through the "magical" route for damage calculation, but damage reduction is from armor.

Tasonir · 07/27/07, 10:38 PM

I believe thunderclap would meet the above requirements; it is a spell that does physical damage. It gains from spell hit/crit, however I am not sure if spell damage affects it. However the damage is determined, in the end, it is reduced by armor.

If there's any other spells like this, they don't spring to my mind right away.

Emeraude · 07/28/07, 12:22 AM

Taunt follows spell mechanics, it's from the "physical" school of magic. >_>

KYA1337 · 07/28/07, 12:41 AM

Warrior:
Piercing Howl and Intimidating Shout use spell hitchances, but are physical effects.
Mocking Blow usemelee hitchance.

• Chicken · 07/28/07, 8:30 AM

Originally Posted by Cromfel

Paladin

Seal of Command
Proc performs as melee attack with 2 as crit multiplier and uses melee hit.
Judgement has also 2 as crit multiplier but uses spell hit.
(Both benefit from spell damage gear).

All other Paladin seals use spell hit and spell crit multiplier.
(SoB exception, I dont have information about it)

Seal of Blood has the exact same behavior as Seal of Command does; with the only difference being that the Seal does not benefit from spell damage (While the Judgement does).

Also on a note for Paladin damage seals...

Seal of Command and Seal of Blood use melee style hit mechanics, but they do use the spell partial resist mechanics. Seal of Righteousness is guaranteed to hit if your melee swing does, and only suffers from the spell partial resist mechanics. Seal of Vengeance (From what I've heard), uses the full spell mechanics, both for hits and partial resists.

One thing I'm not sure of, but has any Paladin ever seen a debuff Judgement (Light, Wisdom, Crusader) get resisted recently? It happens fairly frequently with damage dealing judgements, but I honestly can't remember not seeing a debuff Judgement apply when used.

dedmonwakeen · 07/28/07, 10:16 AM

Thanks for all the great info. Caster theorycraft seems rather easy by comparison......

Trazhenko · 07/30/07, 3:01 PM

Avenger's Shield (Captain America) appears to follow the "Ranged Attack" rules for whether it hits (I've had mine "miss" instead of "resist" on my freshly leveled Paladin), but it's holy damage and appears to critx2 instead of the standard 1.5 for spells.

Safid · 07/30/07, 4:59 PM

I'm not sure if Distract (rogue rock throw) counts as a spell, but it *is* the only ability I can't use while Silenced. The fact that it gets resisted when I have close to 20% hit in PVE gear makes me pretty sure that it's a spell and uses spell hit, as well.

Xrafice · 08/10/07, 1:04 AM

I also wondered about Taunt. Seems it can both be Resisted and Missed, as well as Dodged or Parried. Does +hit rating effect this at all? Or would I technically need +spell hit rating?

Pants · 08/10/07, 5:14 AM

I've never had growl (taunt) miss, dodged or parried. Just Resists--I'm pretty sure it's a spellhit mechanic, you can look at the thottbot spell data for the T3 warrior set bonus. Adds spellhit.

Davia · 08/10/07, 5:27 AM

Originally Posted by Fiola

HoW seems to be a ranged attack. It only misses; deals 2x damage w/ melee (or ranged? worth a look) crit %, and gains from +dmg/heal.

It is ranged crit chance. I played a paladin for over 2 years, and always was running recap when HoW came out. My HoW crit rate was consistently 5% lower than my crit rate with melee and SoC/JoC (after it was added). This coincides with Conviction's description of adding crit with melee weapons.

Originally Posted by Chicken

One thing I'm not sure of, but has any Paladin ever seen a debuff Judgement (Light, Wisdom, Crusader) get resisted recently? It happens fairly frequently with damage dealing judgements, but I honestly can't remember not seeing a debuff Judgement apply when used.

Debuff judgements were made unable to be resisted in the same patch that changed them to refresh on melee swings.

Mekkapiano · 08/10/07, 8:16 AM

The Working Theories of Theorycrafting as of 2.1 thread says for Rogues:

- Rogue special attacks use a two-roll system instead of a one-roll system like all other attacks. See other threads for further explanation of what this means.

There's a lot of sparse info around searches that agrees with this. Whether it's just Rogues is another matter. I don't think it would make sense if it were just Rogues, however, which brings up the question as to whether all player melee yellow attacks are also two-roll.

I think a lot of the debate comes from a confusion between mob and player attack systems. We already know there's a lot of differences in mob and player attack tables and roll systems. One very obvious way you can see this difference is with a warrior's block: no blocked attack in PvE will crit, but they can crit in PvP (for example, a Rogue's Sinister Strike can be a blocked crit). That really complicates matters.

The caster system is easier to nail down because there's only 3 independent things that can happen to a spell: hit, crit, total resist. Both hits and crits can be partial, so that's easy to verify as an "extra roll". If anything, you can think of the caster system as 3-roll for non-binary spells: hit, crit, partial resist.

The melee system has hit, crit, miss, dodge, block, parry, crushing. Players can't crush. Blocked mob hits never crit or crush. Blocked player yellow hits can still crit (not sure if white can). Quite frankly I haven't seen enough convincing stats to figure out exactly how many rolls there are for melee yellow, and which of the above is done at which step.

Mace · 08/10/07, 9:09 AM

Originally Posted by Xrafice

I also wondered about Taunt. Seems it can both be Resisted and Missed, as well as Dodged or Parried. Does +hit rating effect this at all? Or would I technically need +spell hit rating?

You shout at your mob "HIT ME YOU F#$%er" How can that be missed, dodged or parried?
Mob sidesteps and says "Ha, it just flew by me"?
No, he can put his fingers in his ears and do a "yabababababa" him not hearing it and it got resisted.

Other words, Taunt can only hit or be resisted. It works on spell hit.

Thunderclap does phycical damage and has a crit % based on spell crit.
Can only be hit or resisted as wel. So is affected by spell hit too.

All shouts are based on spell hit, but give a physical effect. (you cant parry/dodge a Demoralizing shout, only resist)

• Apate · 08/10/07, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Mekkapiano

The Working Theories of Theorycrafting as of 2.1 thread says for Rogues:

There's a lot of sparse info around searches that agrees with this. Whether it's just Rogues is another matter. I don't think it would make sense if it were just Rogues, however, which brings up the question as to whether all player melee yellow attacks are also two-roll.

I think a lot of the debate comes from a confusion between mob and player attack systems. We already know there's a lot of differences in mob and player attack tables and roll systems. One very obvious way you can see this difference is with a warrior's block: no blocked attack in PvE will crit, but they can crit in PvP (for example, a Rogue's Sinister Strike can be a blocked crit). That really complicates matters.

The caster system is easier to nail down because there's only 3 independent things that can happen to a spell: hit, crit, total resist. Both hits and crits can be partial, so that's easy to verify as an "extra roll". If anything, you can think of the caster system as 3-roll for non-binary spells: hit, crit, partial resist.

The melee system has hit, crit, miss, dodge, block, parry, crushing. Players can't crush. Blocked mob hits never crit or crush. Blocked player yellow hits can still crit (not sure if white can). Quite frankly I haven't seen enough convincing stats to figure out exactly how many rolls there are for melee yellow, and which of the above is done at which step.

If you haven't already, see http://elitistjerks.com/f33/t9104-backstab_two_rolls/