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07/27/07, 2:57 PM
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#1
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Bald Bull
dedmonwakeen
Undead Priest
No WoW Account
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When is a spell not a spell?
I'd like to extend my raid simulator beyond support for caster dps only.
Currently the base spell_t class understands the various schools of magic, and how +dmg, +hit, +crit, +haste all interact. I use a multi-roll system: (1) hit/miss (2) crit/normal (3) dmg reduction from resistance
After doing a little research into white-vs-yellow damage, it seems that many of the YELLOW actions of the "physical dps" classes look much like spells. It is almost as if SPELL +dmg/+hit/+crit might still apply, but the "school" is PHYSICAL so I need to use armor reduction instead of spell resistance.
For example, would Demoralizing Shout benefit from spell +hit gear?
Would Revenge benefit from spell +dmg gear?
What I'm looking for is a generalization that is MOSTLY true with occasional exceptions:
"All yellow damage uses spell hit mechanics, except for xyz..."
Or is it the other way around:
"Physical dps classses use melee hit mechanics for all white AND yellow damage, except for xyz..."
I will do all the necessary research for each class as I come to it...... but it would be nice to have some idea of general behaviour when laying the groundwork for the software architecture.
Thanks in advance for any and all advice.
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07/27/07, 3:10 PM
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#2
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Mal'Ganis
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Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen
What I'm looking for is a generalization that is MOSTLY true with occasional exceptions:
"All yellow damage uses spell hit mechanics, except for xyz..."
Or is it the other way around:
"Physical dps classses use melee hit mechanics for all white AND yellow damage, except for xyz..."
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Physical dps uses melee hit mechanics for yellow damage like heroic strike, sinister strike, mortal strike... off the top of my head I can't come up with a warrior or rogue yellow damage that doesn't obey melee hit mechanics.
Actually, one exception might be mocking blow, which deals some yellow physical damage but might be resistable like Taunt is--I'm sure any experienced warrior could clarify that, hopefully one will.
On the other hand paladins deal with more complicated combinations of mechanics for seal of command and (I'd imagine seal of blood, though I haven't ever used it). Seal of command procs are yellow Holy damage that can miss, be dodged, etc. However they can also be resisted through base spell resistance mechanics. I don't know if +spellhit would reduce the chance of a Seal of command resist, though I imagine it would, up to the hit cap of course.
Likewise, some hunter yellow damage is physical and some is spell. I believe that Arcane Shot crits like a physical attack but is resistable like an arcane attack. I'm no authority there though.
I have no experience with shamans.
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07/27/07, 3:23 PM
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#3
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Borelgore
Physical dps uses melee hit mechanics for yellow damage like heroic strike, sinister strike, mortal strike... off the top of my head I can't come up with a warrior or rogue yellow damage that doesn't obey melee hit mechanics.
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If my memory serves me well, taunt - although not dealing actual damage - doesn't work off melee hit chance, but spell hit chance, thus the lovely requirement for the Dreadnaught setbonus in Naxxramas.
How about blind though?
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07/27/07, 3:37 PM
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#4
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by csulok
If my memory serves me well, taunt - although not dealing actual damage - doesn't work off melee hit chance, but spell hit chance, thus the lovely requirement for the Dreadnaught setbonus in Naxxramas.
How about blind though?
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Blind is a ranged attack, probably like shoot gun, but it applies a poison effect. I think it can be resisted, but off the top of my head I don't remember ever seeing it happen. I've definitely had them removed by poison cleansing totem, and before they fixed it to actually be a ranged attack, I had them dodged and parried, but that doesn't happen anymore.
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07/27/07, 3:39 PM
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#5
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Trazhenko
Blind is a ranged attack, probably like shoot gun, but it applies a poison effect. I think it can be resisted, but off the top of my head I don't remember ever seeing it happen. I've definitely had them removed by poison cleansing totem, and before they fixed it to actually be a ranged attack, I had them dodged and parried, but that doesn't happen anymore.
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Blind can be resisted only through talents such as Unyielding Faith, which increases your chance to resist Disorient effects. (You can try dueling another rogue and having him pop Cloak; he'll never resist it.) It can also miss when talents such as Arctic Winds are brought into play.
It's basically the same application mechanic as Serpent Sting.
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07/27/07, 3:46 PM
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#6
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Don Flamenco
Human Paladin
Ravencrest (EU)
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Paladin
Seal of Command
Proc performs as melee attack with 2 as crit multiplier and uses melee hit.
Judgement has also 2 as crit multiplier but uses spell hit.
(Both benefit from spell damage gear).
All other Paladin seals use spell hit and spell crit multiplier.
(SoB exception, I dont have information about it)
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07/27/07, 3:49 PM
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#7
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Protector
Ashstrike
Human Paladin
No WoW Account
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Taunt and Thunder clap (crits from Spell crit), Piercing Howl, and the Fear from a Warrior count as spells so spell hit would help them land.
I can't think of other Warrior "spells", all others are melee attacks.
Poisons from a Rogue should act as spells as well, all others are melee attacks.
Seal of Command and Seal of Blood are melee hits, but they can be partially resisted (just like Arcane shot). Judgments of those should be the same, as well as Hammer of Wrath.
Exorism/Holy Shock/all other Pally dps spells are spells and use spell crit/hit.
Last edited by frmorrison : 07/28/07 at 12:15 PM.
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07/27/07, 3:52 PM
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#8
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by Cromfel
Paladin
Seal of Command
Proc performs as melee attack with 2 as crit multiplier and uses melee hit.
Judgement has also 2 as crit multiplier but uses spell hit.
(Both benefit from spell damage gear).
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Both also rely on melee Crit%. (Sorta implied by the 2x crit multiplier, but just to be explicit)
HoW seems to be a ranged attack. It only misses; deals 2x damage w/ melee (or ranged? worth a look) crit %, and gains from +dmg/heal.
All other Paladin seals use spell hit and spell crit multiplier.
(SoB exception, I dont have information about it)
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AFAIK, JoB behaves like JoCommand.
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07/27/07, 3:54 PM
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#9
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Borelgore
Likewise, some hunter yellow damage is physical and some is spell. I believe that Arcane Shot crits like a physical attack but is resistable like an arcane attack. I'm no authority there though.
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Arcane shot is magical damage, but follows the physical ruleset for the most part. It is magical, so it can be resisted and is not affected by armor. But it can miss or be blocked, just like other shots. It is affected by a Hunter's ranged crit, ranged AP, and crits at 200% (or 230% with talents).
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07/27/07, 5:18 PM
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#10
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Piston Honda
Undead Warlock
Sylvanas (EU)
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I would make a theory that everything that is "resisted" is a spell and everything that "misses" is an attack. This can perhaps be seen alternatively that spells do not require weapons, while attacks require weapons, with some exceptions like shooting wand that looks quite hybridish.
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07/27/07, 5:34 PM
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#11
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Bald Bull
dedmonwakeen
Undead Priest
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Daenerys
Arcane shot is magical damage, but follows the physical ruleset for the most part. It is magical, so it can be resisted and is not affected by armor. But it can miss or be blocked, just like other shots. It is affected by a Hunter's ranged crit, ranged AP, and crits at 200% (or 230% with talents).
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Are there any "spells" that do physical damage?
Ie. Go through the "magical" route for damage calculation, but damage reduction is from armor.
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07/27/07, 9:38 PM
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#12
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Blackhand
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I believe thunderclap would meet the above requirements; it is a spell that does physical damage. It gains from spell hit/crit, however I am not sure if spell damage affects it. However the damage is determined, in the end, it is reduced by armor.
If there's any other spells like this, they don't spring to my mind right away.
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07/27/07, 11:22 PM
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#13
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Bald Bull
Night Elf Warrior
Sargeras
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Taunt follows spell mechanics, it's from the "physical" school of magic. >_>
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07/27/07, 11:41 PM
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#14
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Von Kaiser
Human Paladin
Antonidas (EU)
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Warrior:
Piercing Howl and Intimidating Shout use spell hitchances, but are physical effects.
Mocking Blow usemelee hitchance.
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07/28/07, 7:30 AM
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#15
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Mod
Gnome Monk
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
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Originally Posted by Cromfel
Paladin
Seal of Command
Proc performs as melee attack with 2 as crit multiplier and uses melee hit.
Judgement has also 2 as crit multiplier but uses spell hit.
(Both benefit from spell damage gear).
All other Paladin seals use spell hit and spell crit multiplier.
(SoB exception, I dont have information about it)
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Seal of Blood has the exact same behavior as Seal of Command does; with the only difference being that the Seal does not benefit from spell damage (While the Judgement does).
Also on a note for Paladin damage seals...
Seal of Command and Seal of Blood use melee style hit mechanics, but they do use the spell partial resist mechanics. Seal of Righteousness is guaranteed to hit if your melee swing does, and only suffers from the spell partial resist mechanics. Seal of Vengeance (From what I've heard), uses the full spell mechanics, both for hits and partial resists.
One thing I'm not sure of, but has any Paladin ever seen a debuff Judgement (Light, Wisdom, Crusader) get resisted recently? It happens fairly frequently with damage dealing judgements, but I honestly can't remember not seeing a debuff Judgement apply when used.
Last edited by Chicken : 07/28/07 at 7:37 AM.
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