By restricting things to all "special attacks" that attempt to damage a target only you can abstract things out a lot easier.
Blizzard class all such skills as spells.
We may call Backstab a physical attack and Frostbolt a spell, nothing wrong with that, but they are all the same at an abstract level.
- They have a cost. This may be 0.
- They have preconditions for their use. Being in range of the target for example.
- The spell is classed as being of a certain type. This is not the same as the damage type however.
- They do damage of a certain type, their school if you like. Even physical damage is a school if you like although we associate schools with magic, Blizzard treats things more pragmatically and call things the damage type.
- The damage is dealt to the target in a specific way. Damage over Time, can be instantly dealt, a combination of these or by spell specific rules.
- The success of an attack is governed by sets of rules associated with the type of spell.
- The effectiveness of the effect of the spell, its damage, is governed by rules associated with the type of damage being dealt. A spell may have more than one type of damage.
- The spell may alter the target's state in other ways. Thunderclap does damage and debuffs the target for example.
- A spell can setup post conditions, Shadow Word:Death being a more obvious example.
At this level of abstraction there is little, if any, difference between Backstab, Frostbolt or Thunderclap.
Specialising the type of spell and the type(s) of damage can ease the burden of providing the inevitable exception cases. It would also help separate the rule sets from the spells themselves.
I have no idea what language/platform you are using for your simulator, I would have chosen a OO capable language because they lend themselves well to solving this kind of problem. I would hate to have to do this using a tool like Excel.
By restricting things to all "special attacks" that attempt to damage a target only you can abstract things out a lot easier.
Blizzard class all such skills as spells.
We may call Backstab a physical attack and Frostbolt a spell, nothing wrong with that, but they are all the same at an abstract level.
<snip>.
Specialising the type of spell and the type(s) of damage can ease the burden of providing the inevitable exception cases. It would also help separate the rule sets from the spells themselves.
I have no idea what language/platform you are using for your simulator, I would have chosen a OO capable language because they lend themselves well to solving this kind of problem. I would hate to have to do this using a tool like Excel.
The language is C++.
There is a class hierarchy for spells:
spell_t => [player class]_spell_t => [spell_name]_t
Spells have both a "tree" and a "school". The school denotes the damage type. And I agree with your assessment: I've already added a "physical" school. The only difference is that the "partial resistance" for physical damage would be calculated from armor.
Is it safe to say that when a damage-dealing action includes weapon damage, then "regular" +hit is used? If it does NOT include weapon damage, then "spell" +hit is used? Are there exceptions to this? Or perhaps I should say: "How many....."
Sorry, I should have included this in my last post. What about Sunder? The effect seems magical, but the actual action is melee... I would assume, that like most buffs/debuffs that affect NPCs and PCs, it is effected by spell hit (such as Demo, Battle Shout, etc.), however, if you are silenced, it is still usable, unlike the shouts. But if it doesn't land, it's 'resisted'.
Sorry, I should have included this in my last post. What about Sunder? The effect seems magical, but the actual action is melee... I would assume, that like most buffs/debuffs that affect NPCs and PCs, it is effected by spell hit (such as Demo, Battle Shout, etc.), however, if you are silenced, it is still usable, unlike the shouts. But if it doesn't land, it's 'resisted'.
There are such things as physical buffs and debuffs. I'm not sure why sunder seems magical in nature to you, since it involves breaking armor with your weapon so that it's less effective. There's a kind of grouping of sonic attacks such as taunts and shouts that don't cause a magical effect (you can't purge battle shout, for example) but still use spell hit and can't be used while silenced. But they're not the standard as far as physical buffs and debuffs go; a large chunk of physical debuffs are bleeds, and many are simply untyped like sunder.
So what you're saying is neither +spell hit nor +hit will effect the landing of the ability Sunder?
No, sunder is just like any other other attack, it's affected by miss/parry/dodge (not sure about block?) and hit/weapon skill will improve it's chance to land.
How is Mocking Blow? I think it gets the whole miss/parry/dodge/block treatment, but it can't be resisted, can it? (I don't mean immune mobs, just resists.)
I can't say as I've ever seen a sunder resisted. Miss? Sure. Resist? No.
All the "debuff" judgment are not resistible. I can't say as I've ever had a JoW/JoL/JotC resisted even against 73s and bosses.
SoR is affected by the level based partial resists, but is not fully resistible. JoR is fully resistible iirc.
SoB/SoC are physical hits, affected by by + melee hit, with a 200% crit multiplier. JoB/JoC get a 200% crit modifier but are affected by +spell hit mechanics.
All the taunts (growl/taunt/righteous defense) are spell hit affected.
Hammer of Wrath is a 200% crit modifier. I can't recall whether its spell hit or melee though. I -believe- its melee as I vgule recall seeing it "miss" before, not "resist". Not sure if its affected by ap or spell damage. ( I don't use it much)
Is it safe to say that when a damage-dealing action includes weapon damage, then "regular" +hit is used? If it does NOT include weapon damage, then "spell" +hit is used? Are there exceptions to this?
Arcane Shot.
Damage does not depend on weapon damage in any way.
Is affected by normal ranged Hit / Crit chance.
Damage dealt can be partially blocked & resisted, even on a crit (at least for mobs).
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
Single effect abilities are NOT DOUBLE ROLL. Dual effects sometimes are. For instance, Mocking Blow can miss, and then the taunt effect can be resisted. If Sunder Armor did damage upon applying, it would have a double roll.
People are sometimes a little retarded about this, because they see abilities both miss and resist IN PVP! Blind can miss and be resisted, but the resist is from talents that cause you to resist disorient effects. The same is true with scattershot.
Regarding Paladin offensive attacks, how are abilities which use spell hit calculated? Are they resisted like normal non-binary spells? Or is there a special resist table for these abilities because they are holy spells? I've heard rumors that holy spells have a 5% base resist rate regardless of level. I haven't been able to find any confirmation of this, and it doesn't make any sense since it seems to allow a level 10 character to have a 95% chance to hit a raid boss. I've also seen claims that mobs also have a base chance to partially resist holy spells. But I haven't been able to find detailed information on hit/resist mechanics behind holy spells, perhaps one of you could elucidate this?
You will note that Elemental attacks (melee attacks from elemental-type mobs that do damage of a particular melee school) follow a third pattern for attacks: they crit, then can miss/dodge/parry, they cannot be blocked, they can be resisted partially but not mitigated by armor.
I wonder if SoCom/SoB follows this rule? Obviously partial resists are a little hard to find on a holy-damage attacks (being an artifact of high-level mobs), but you can run a large test and look for partial blocks to verify.
In general, if it's a spell and uses spell mechanics like spell hit, then you can't cast it while silenced. This apparently means no hunter shots, all hunter aspects, all warrior shouts (including piercing howl) and taunt.
Ranged attack rules seem to follow melee attack rules very closely except with dodge/block/parry removed from the result table. I am led to believe that glancing blows still apply, although not crushing blows since mob ranged attacks tend to be coded as specials, not as an auto-shot.
I wonder if arcane shot is a ranged elemental-type attack?
For modelling a warrior skill under your second condition ("Physical dps classses use melee hit mechanics for all white AND yellow damage, except for xyz..."), Thunderclap would definitely be worth a look as some people have mentioned.
It's considered a spell.
It does yellow physical damage, affected by armour and other physical mitigation.
It can be resisted.
It can't be used when silenced.
It is based on spell hit and spell crit.
Mocking Blow, Revenge, Sunder and so on are straight melee attacks and I believe have no spell component associated. They fail if parried, blocked or a miss. The Revenge stun from the talent can fail due to normal stun resist rolls but I think it's a separate roll. Revenge can still hit for damage, but the stun can be resisted. I never once saw Mocking Blow fail to land the taunt component, if the skill did damage i.e. a hit. Demo is a straight up debuff spell. It has no physical damage component but like a curse of shadows for example, no damage component but has a threat component based on application.
At least that was my experience from 20 months of main tanking raids, and seeing Thunderclap do very weird things all the time.
You will note that Elemental attacks (melee attacks from elemental-type mobs that do damage of a particular melee school) follow a third pattern for attacks: they crit, then can miss/dodge/parry, they cannot be blocked, they can be resisted partially but not mitigated by armor.
I wonder if SoCom/SoB follows this rule? Obviously partial resists are a little hard to find on a holy-damage attacks (being an artifact of high-level mobs), but you can run a large test and look for partial blocks to verify.
In general, if it's a spell and uses spell mechanics like spell hit, then you can't cast it while silenced. This apparently means no hunter shots, all hunter aspects, all warrior shouts (including piercing howl) and taunt.
Ranged attack rules seem to follow melee attack rules very closely except with dodge/block/parry removed from the result table. I am led to believe that glancing blows still apply, although not crushing blows since mob ranged attacks tend to be coded as specials, not as an auto-shot.
I wonder if arcane shot is a ranged elemental-type attack?
Techincally, there is no such thing as a "white" ranged attack, beacause Auto Shot as well as all "Shoot" abilities, from mobs and from players, are counted as specials - they can neither glance nor (in case of mobs) crush.
As you pointed out, ranged attacks can not be parrierd or dodged, but they can be blocked, at least in PVE (I've seen partially blocked Auto-, Steady- and Arcane Shots).
You will note that Elemental attacks (melee attacks from elemental-type mobs that do damage of a particular melee school) follow a third pattern for attacks: they crit [...]
Do they really? Our hydross tanks aren't uncrittable, yet I've never seen them get 1-shotted as a crit just before a transition would.
Do they really? Our hydross tanks aren't uncrittable, yet I've never seen them get 1-shotted as a crit just before a transition would.
Yes they can be critted, as one of our tanks got critted on an early Hydros run we did. Didn't kill him but our WWS showed a crit and the guy was a bit embarassed that he hadn't actually got crit immune even though he was told to
As for Demo Shout/Roar, and most likely also taunt (though i can't test it since others players are immune) are NOT affected by spellhit. Last time i tested Demoralizing Roar wasn't that long ago, i asked a Rogue to pop Cloak of Shadows, and the Demo Roar debuff was not resisted.
Edit:
There might - of course - be special mechanics in work for abilities such as Demo Roar or Shout. When the debuffs are applied, they aren't dispelable, which might change the way they work versus Cloak of Shadows, though they could potentially still be affected by spellhit.
Does anyone remember if Demoralizing Roar/Shout is removed when a paladin casts Blessing of Protection?
Hammer of Wrath is a 200% crit modifier. I can't recall whether its spell hit or melee though. I -believe- its melee as I vgule recall seeing it "miss" before, not "resist". Not sure if its affected by ap or spell damage. ( I don't use it much).
I've seen HoWs missing my rogue but I've only seen them being resisted by me if I used cloak of shadows. I think the damage is resistible(much like JoR) but the spell itself cannot be resisted(like JoW/JoL), only missed(like arcane shot)
It may take sometime but it would be nice to test HoW vs Evasion, to see if it counts as a ranged attack(hence the misses) or as a spell(it can be kicked, not usable while silenced, etc)
I'm in a hurry now, but someone mentioned above something about blind and cloak of shadows . Blind CAN be resisted thru poison resist talents(-> master poisoner) and thru cloak of shadows. It can be missed but I'm not sure what kind of +hit do you need to make it sure it cannot miss.
For the record I miss a blind every once in a while on my pvp gear(+36hit rating, +5% melee hit) but I've never seen a blind missing on my pve gear(+283 hit rating, +5% melee hit)
Chance for blind to land doesn't increase with spell hit. This becomes obvious as someone stated if you have two Rogues duel. CLoS should cause a near immunity to Blind, but it doesn't.
Poisons are based on spell hit for certain as is distract.
Yes they can be critted, as one of our tanks got critted on an early Hydros run we did. Didn't kill him but our WWS showed a crit and the guy was a bit embarassed that he hadn't actually got crit immune even though he was told to
I see, I just checked WWS from our Hydross kills and there is indeed a 2% crit rate showing for each of the main tanks. The defense trinket he drops is looking rather more attractive now.
On another note, I regemmed my pally's [Belt of the Guardian] with a spell hit+stam gem thinking it will help Righteous Defense, but now I'm wondering if there is any conclusive evidence that it does help the resist rate for that spell? Also wondering if it affects warriors' Taunt, as I've heard conflicting statements about that.
...
On another note, I regemmed my pally's [Belt of the Guardian] with a spell hit+stam gem thinking it will help Righteous Defense, but now I'm wondering if there is any conclusive evidence that it does help the resist rate for that spell? Also wondering if it affects warriors' Taunt, as I've heard conflicting statements about that.
Well, failed RDs show as "resist"s, and anecdotally, I rarely see resists when tanking 5 mans (my tank gear has 2~3% spell hit).
08/10/07, 12:18 PM
There's a kind of grouping of sonic attacks such as taunts and shouts that don't cause a magical effect (you can't purge battle shout, for example) but still use spell hit and can't be used while silenced. But they're not the standard as far as physical buffs and debuffs go; a large chunk of physical debuffs are bleeds, and many are simply untyped like sunder.
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