Groggan

I am in the process of attempting to deduce a way of finding more realistic raid-wide DPS gains from Expose Weakness. The best way that I can come up with is to find the DPS-gain from 1AP for each of the classes/specs/styles, then I can use those along with a given raid-makeup to get a rough (but much less rough compared to the other options) idea of raid-wide DPS value for a given Expose Weakness.

Now, I realize this is fraught with problems, so I'll list off the most obvious and the assumptions I am looking to be held to solve them:

P1. All physical damage classes value AP differently.
A1. I hope to find an average/rough AP valuation for each class.
P2. Even within a class, different specs/styles value AP differently.
A2. I actually hope to find an average/rough AP valuate for each spec/style of each class.
P3. Within a class and spec/style different gearing levels create different values for AP.
A3. Not much that can be done about this besides getting the actual people in a given raid to calculate out their value for AP. I'm trying to get my raid to do this, but not everyone is a theorycrafter . As such, I'd like to get an average value for each class/spec for at a given gear level, say up to Kael loot, in order to get a more useful number than just using the 14AP:1DPS number (with the full realization that it still isn't accurate).
P4. You're a nub, fill out the spreadsheets yourself.
A4. Well, maybe I am, or maybe I trust each of you to better know your class/spec/play style to fill out your spreadsheets accurately and understand them. And maybe I realize that many of you would only have to do about 2 minutes of work to be able to kick out a value for AP and report it here with a brief explanation of your class/spec/gearing.

Those are the biggest issues I can think of. All that being said, allow me to lay-out what I'd like to get from each of you.

If you could, please open up your favorite DPS spreadsheet and make sure it is up to date (or better yet, update it so that the gearing is around Kael-level). Make a note of the theorycrafted DPS. Next, bump up your stats by 1AP and make a note of this new DPS. Report back here the difference in DPS along with a brief explanation of your spec/style and the gearing level you computed it with (just a general gearing level will do, like SSC-level, or Kael-level, or whatever).

Please note that I also need numbers for tanks! Your dps will increase from EW also ya know
I basically need numbers for every-single physical dps-source, be it tank, rogue, enh. shaman, feral drood, ret. pally, etc. If you hit the mob with something that is effected by AP I could use your numbers!

I'll munge all the data and average them out for similar gearing levels and create a table in this post of the results. From there raids can use the information to deduce a more realistic value of a given Expose Weakness. I say raids can deduce this and not Survival Hunters because finding a value for EW really is useful to a raid as a whole, it will help raid leaders to be able to decide if giving the SV hunter a GoA totem would be worth it or not for example.

Again, I realize I am asking quite a bit, but unfortunately to get a true valuation of Expose Weakness this is the level of work that is needed, and I can't do it alone (I don't have the time or knowledge of other classes/specs). If you have thoughts or concerns feel free to share them of course, but if you think I'm crazy go ahead and keep that to yourself

 

• Aldriana

Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, with my current gear/spec (see my armory link for details), indicates that 1 AP will increase my damage by roughly .32 DPS.

 

Vykromond

Using Tunah's spreadsheet for feral druids and my gearset, I got a .18 DPS upgrade from 1 additional AP.

 

• Latito

100 AP added 30.47 dps for me on the Rogue DPS spreadsheet.
100 AP added 29.32 dps for me on the Rogue Gear spreadsheet.

As for gear, I have every last piece I could really want from Kara, Gruul, Mag and VR with the odd SSC piece. I'm using dual S2 gladiator weaps.

In general, you'll probably find rogues and warriors benefit the most from AP, followed by hunters, then druids getting the least benefit.

 

Zacara

Just a quick check put warriors as 0,38 DPS per AP.

Fury warriors tend to scale very well with AP since bloodthirst which is our main instant is purely based on it as opposed to rogues and MS warriors.

 

Groggan

From various sources it looks like rogues get around .3DPS:AP, arms warriors around the same, fury warriors a bit more, enhancement shamans a bit less, and feral druids significantly less. Also, I got one tank saying he gets around .14TPS:AP, which is kinda nice.

I could still use more numbers to help solidify these general values of course

 

◊ Malan

It was calculated last month that Enhance shaman with the Weapon Mastery talent effectively makes 12.73 AP = 1 DPS.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

Groggan

First, that looks to be extremely low for a full DPS:AP ratio. That comes out to what, .079DPS:1AP? Was that number calculated taking crits into account? For that matter, how can a blanket ratio be found for any class? AP value is dependent on DPS, which is dependent on weapon, hit, haste, crit, and ap itself. Not to seem unthankful, but those numbers just don't seem, well, right. Maybe I'm missing something in the valuation you listed, can you link to the post where that was calculated?

 

Kiklion

I believe he means that instead of 14 ap = 1 pre armor white dps, for shamans it is the number listed. Though I do not believe this helps your cause much at all. I will figure out my own AP -- dps numbers after work as well as that of my pet.

 

Lujaar

Enhance Shaman: 1 AP = about .21 DPS

This at the hypothetical AP/crit/hit values used in the shaman theorycrafting threads at which 2 AP and 1 crit rating are of equal value. These values approximate an enh shaman just starting SSC, with full raid buffs.

 

• Glaurong

I've been thinking about this Grogg and I believe you could write a mod that would give you pretty decent numbers for EW DPS contribution, although the amount of data it would have to collect/process is pretty significant.

Track buffs on players and debuffs on mobs for any given occurrence of an attack with AP factored in.

Keep a rolling record of the data for each player and attempt to compare each new event with existing events. If two events coincide in every meaningful way, except EW is preset in one and not the other you now have a delta you can apply to previous/upcoming events from that player. Once that occurs you can discard most of the buff/debuff data.

Problems:

-Percentage based buffs/debuffs will skew the delta you are trying to find.

-Main-hand / Off-hand for dual wielders. It is hard (impossible?) to distinguish between main-hand and off-hand events in the combat log.

-Changes in armor altering buffs/debuffs will make the application of one delta across all events of a type difficult without storing excessive amounts of information.

Information you would need:

-List of buffs/debuffs that affect physical DPS output.

-List of attacks that have an AP contribution.

Despite that stuff I think you could generate a pretty good approximation.

Log Parser for BM Hunters (Right click, save as) - Updated 10/11/2007

 

Groggan

I almost feel like it would be less work to simply create a conglomerate spreadsheet from each of the existing class spreadsheets (one that just takes the end values instead of gear choices etc. as input).

Either way I suspect that I wouldn't have time to complete such a task any time soon (cursed rl schedule).

Another option would be to create a log parser instead of an add-on, except the difficult part there is knowing when a relevant debuff falls off the target (there aren't any combat log entries for those, right?).

 

• frmorrison

I feel the best method is just just using a general rule of thumb, say there are 3 Rogues using the 1 AP gives 0.32 dps number, so if they gained 300 AP via EW that means 288 dps added for the 3 Rogues for however long EW lasts.


For a Felguard (who only has 1 special attack every 6 seconds), 1 AP is .17 dps, this is for a raid buffed FG.

 

◊ Malan

Ahh yah that was my mistake, I think I misunderstood what you were looking for.
Someone cleared that up for me afterward so its all good.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

Stabmaster

Rogue, raid buffed, 100 AP = 33.01 DPS -> 1 AP = 0.33 DPS

 

Groggan

I think that is the most reasonable method, yes, but not the best. The best would be to get each of your physical dpsers in your raid to calculate out their real DPS:AP ratio (it will change for a given player based on everything from gear to spec to play style to expected buffs) and then use those ratios to find their DPS increase from EW. But, in leu of that if we can get a good sampling of DPS:AP ratios for class/spec/style for a general gearing level I think we can get a useful set of numbers in getting a feel for EW's worth.

 

Kiklion

Using cheeky's spread sheet and creating a custom weapon that has 1 ap more then my sonic spear, while maintaining other stats caused me to gain .2 dps.

Since dps from 1 ap is based on crit%, mob armor, -armor effects, spec, shot rotation and weapon speed, I'm going to list mine. >.<

2.8 speed weapon
2.02 after haste rating (BM spec 41/20/0)

26.53% crit

Mob was lvl 73 with assumed 4700 armor (30.8% reduction)

Shot rotation was simply auto/steady with no KC and no arcane shot since I don't know how to add those into cheeky's spread sheet.

After sunder (or minus 2600 armor) it came to be .27 dps for the hunter.


Now for the pet.

From the hunter wiki : Pets get about 22% of the hunter's ranged attack power added to their melee attack power.

So, 1/.22 = 4.545454 etc. So, 4.545454 AP for the hunter = 1 AP for the pet.

Giving me a weapon with 5 more ap then sonic spear, and having the mob have 4700 armor, gave me .1 dps to the pet. This is assuming Unleashed fury, ferocity, and full happiness with a scorpid.

If I change the armor down to 2100, I get .12 dps added per AP.

It is .14 dps with 2100 armor and a ravager or cat.

So, with a hunter with almost all of the kara gear, 1 AP is worth .3 to .41 dps depending on armor of the boss and pet type. (.3 being 4700 or about 30% reduc, and .41 is with a ravager and 2100 armor or 16.6 reduct.)

 

Groggan

That seems to be pretty typical for BM hunters from what I've seen so far. Thanks for taking the time to add your numbers Kiklion

 

Groggan

Giving this a single bump in hopes of getting some more data points from theory-crafters (I'll let it die if no one adds to it after this).

 

ugla

You can't really do this anyways. You have to know what AP/crit/hit/etc the people you're buffing are at. 200AP is a lot more valuable to someone at the hit cap and with 30% crit than to someone who is a few percent below the hit cap with 20% crit.
Expose Weakness scales extremely well in 25-mans, though. I just turned into my guild's expose weakness bot, and it is working out pretty well. I have only lost a couple spots on damage meters and am giving a raid-wide 235-ish AP, and spec'd into Imp. Hunter's Mark for the added utility.

 

Groggan

Oh, I know you can't get an exact number without that information, but we can get a much better general feel for EW's value. We can low-ball it a bit and still find that in a raid of 9 physical damagers it can reach upwards of 500 raid-dps contribution thanks to the numbers already shared.

By all accounts from here and elsewhere that I've been gathering numbers here's the general numbers I am using for the value of 1AP for TK/SSCish gear levels:
rogues - .3DPS
hunters - .3DPS
enh. shaman - .25DPS
fury warriors - .35DPS
arms warriors - .3DPS
feral druids - .2DPS
prot warriors - ? (.14TPS:1AP reported from one prot warrior)
ret paladins - ?

These numbers would go down for pre TK/SSC gear and up for BT/Hyjal gear.

 

ugla

Just an added consideration, a prot warrior probably wouldn't see .3DPS per AP, but what is more important to a prot warrior anyways is threat per second--which could easily be .3TPS per AP.

 

• Apate

One "r" please


We aren't druids, and, speaking for myself, people wearing tails don't get me excited.

See you, auntie.
"You don't need a machine to make a rainbow. For rainbows are made of happy thoughts, and dreams, and chocolate unicorns, and gumdrops, and licorice sunsets, and fuzzy gumdrop bears, and sugar-coated chocolate gumdrop land."

Originally Posted by DeeNogger I am coming for you Apate.

 

Groggan

Hehe, woopsie.