[Hunter] Haste Rating analysis for end-game builds

Kaber · 08/01/07, 6:43 PM

The goal is to analyze the affect hastes have on end-game specs for MM and BM. The specs I chose, and feel free to try out your own specs/gear to see how they fare, are 41/20/0 for BM and 18/43/0 for MM. For MM I went both with and without Imp. Aspect of the Hawk and the Dragonspine Trophy (replacing the Hourglass), and for BM I went with and without the DST (Dragon Spine Trophy). During hasted shots for MM, I went with a 1:1 shot rotation, while for unhasted shots I went with the standard 1:1.5 rotation. My latency was set to 0.2 seconds (people seem to average 200ms). For every build the pet is set as a Ravager with Bite and Gore.

BM build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
MM build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
(simply switch Endurance Training and Imp. AotH for MM when applicable)

I chose the Merciless Gladiator crossbow for the first set using first my own gear (with the heroic cloak since I only have the Crystalweave cape at the moment and my goal is to first analyze unhasted builds).

BM Total DPS: 1740
BM + DST: 1893
MM Total DPS: 1867
MM + AotH/DST: 1911

Then I swapped out the bow for Don Santos' gun and redid the exact same data set:

BM Total DPS: 1797
BM + DST: 1845
MM Total DPS: 1781
MM + AotH/DST: 1942

Conclusion: The best DPS build is Marksman with a fast weapon and both Aspect of the Hawk and the Dragonspine trophy. Without the Dragonspine, the best DPS build is Marksman with no haste at all.

Here is my current raid gear, and the buffs I used are: Blessing of Kings, Blessing of Might, Warp Burgers, Agility Elixirs, Mark of the Wild, and Lead of the Pack. I turned off any buffs the hunter was unable to give themselves (no TSA for BM, no FI for MM, and no EW for either).

Race	Troll
Main Hand	Claw of the Netherwing Flight (+daggers)
Enchant	Major Intellect

Off Hand	Malchazeen
Enchant	Major Intellect

Head	Demon Stalker Greathelm
Enchant	Glyph of Ferocity
Yellow Socket 1	Smooth Dawnstone
Meta Socket 2	Relentless Earthstorm Diamond
Socket Bonus	Achieved

Neck	Worgen Claw Necklace

Shoulders	Merciless Gladiator's Chain Spaulders
Enchant	Inscription of Vengeance
Red Socket 1	Delicate Living Ruby
Yellow Socket 2	Delicate Living Ruby
Socket Bonus	Not Achieved

Back	Blood Knight War Cloak
Enchant	Greater Agility

Chest	Ebon Netherscale Breastplate
Enchant	Exceptional Stats
Blue Socket 1	Delicate Living Ruby
Yellow Socket 2	Delicate Living Ruby
Blue Socket 3	Delicate Living Ruby
Socket Bonus	Not Achieved

Wrist	Ebon Netherscale Bracers
Enchant	Assault
Yellow Socket 1	Smooth Dawnstone
Socket Bonus	Achieved

Hands	Gauntlets of the Dragonslayer
Enchant	Assault
Red Socket 1	Delicate Living Ruby
Red Socket 2	Delicate Living Ruby
Socket Bonus	Achieved

Waist	Ebon Netherscale Belt
Enchant	None
Blue Socket 1	Shifting Nightseye
Yellow Socket 2	Jagged Talasite
Socket Bonus	Achieved

Legs	Demon Stalker Greaves
Enchant	Cobrahide Leg Armor

Feet	General's Chain Sabatons
Enchant	None

Ring	Garona's Signet Ring
Ring	Ring of a Thousand Marks

Trinket	Mark of Conquest
Trinket	Hourglass of the Unraveller

Ranged Weapon	Merciless Gladiator's Crossbow
Enchant	Stabilized Eternium Scope
Quiver	Ancient Sinew Wrapped Lamina
Ammo	Warden's Arrows

Ranged Weapon	Don Santos' Famous Hunting Rifle
Enchant	Stabilized Eternium Scope
Quiver	Gnoll Skin Bandollier
Ammo	Adamantite Bullets

My next post will address T6 level gearing for full haste builds.

Kaber · 08/01/07, 6:49 PM

Using the exact same specs as above, I moved in to end-game gear at the Tier 6 level to analyze all of the passive haste gear.

I did the first set in non-haste T6 quality gear using the Serpent Spine bow.

BM Total DPS: 2083
BM + DST: 2270
MM Total DPS: 2212
MM + AotH/DST: 2345

Swapping over to the Barrel-Bladed Longrifle for the second set.

BM Total DPS: 2124
BM + DST: 2159
MM Total DPS: 2060
MM + AotH DPS: 2277

Now for a full set of haste gear with the Serpent spine bow and a 1:1 rotation for all specs (Multi-shot replacing 1 steady every 10s for MM):

BM Total DPS: 2140
BM + DST: 2154
MM Total DPS: 2003
MM + AotH/DST: 2318

And Switching in the Barrel-Bladed gun:

BM Total DPS: 2001
BM + DST: 1984
MM Total DPS: 2065
MM + AotH DPS: 2217

Conclusion: With the Dragonspine Trophy, an unhasted MM build tops the DPS charts using a 1:1.5 rotation for unhasted shots and a 1:1 rotation for hasted shots. Coming in second is the fully hasted MM with DST and the Serpent Spine bow, but with much greater mana efficiency using a 1:1 shot rotation. Without the Dragonspine Trophy, the completely unhasted MM spec wins out over BM, but by a small enough amount that BM's mana efficiency will overtake the DPS difference without having a group stacked with a Shadow Priest.

The dragonspine Trophy is the best possible piece of equipment any hunter can use no matter what spec they take, except for a fully hasted BM, where the benefit is minimal at best and reduces DPS in the worst case senario.

What can Survival Hunters take from this?
I did not analyze Survival, since my goal was to find the highest possible end-game DPS; however, survival can apply the trends that Marksman builds follow because their DPS follows a very similar curve. Without the DST, an unhasted build would be optimal for DPS. With the dragonspine trophy, they would want to take Improved Aspect of the hawk (5/20/36) to maximize DPS, and try for one of the faster weapons if possible.

T6 GEARING - NO HASTE
Halberd of Desolation
Major Agility (Two Hand)

Achieved
Forest Prowler's Helm
Glyph of Ferocity
Shifting Nightseye (4 Agi, 6 Sta)
Relentless Earthstorm Diamond (12 Agi)

Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem

Shoulders of the Hidden Predator
Greater Inscription of Vengence

Thalassian Wildercloak
Greater Agility

Mail of Fevered Pursuit
Exceptional Stats

Wraps of Precise Flight
Assault

Gronnstalker's Gloves
Assault
Shifting Nightseye (4 Agi, 6 Sta)

Boneweave Girdle

Bow-stitched Leggings
Cobrahide Leg Armor
Delicate Living Ruby (8 Agi)
Jagged Talasite (6 Sta, 4 Crit)
Smooth Dawnstone (8 Crit)

Cobra-Lash Boots
Dexterity
Shifting Nightseye (4 Agi, 6 Sta)
Delicate Living Ruby (8 Agi)

Band of Eternity - Revered
Ring of Deceitful Intent

Bloodlust Brooch
Dragonspine Trophy
Trinket	Hourglass of the Unraveller

Ranged Weapon	Serpent Spine Longbow
Enchant	Stabilized Eternium Scope
Quiver	Ancient Sinew Wrapped Lamina
Ammo	Warden's Arrows

Ranged Weapon Barrel-Blade Longrifle

T6 GEARING - FULL HASTE

Halberd of Desolation
Major Agility (Two Hand)

Forest Prowler's Helm
Glyph of Ferocity
Shifting Nightseye (4 Agi, 6 Sta)
Relentless Earthstorm Diamond (12 Agi)

Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem

Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes
Greater Inscription of Vengence

Crystalweave Cape
Greater Agility

Mail of Fevered Pursuit
Exceptional Stats

Bindings of Lightning Reflexes
Assault

Fists of Mukoa
Assault

Valestalker Girdle

Bow-stitched Leggings
Cobrahide Leg Armor
Delicate Living Ruby (8 Agi)
Jagged Talasite (6 Sta, 4 Crit)
Smooth Dawnstone (8 Crit)

Cobra-Lash Boots
Dexterity
Shifting Nightseye (4 Agi, 6 Sta)
Delicate Living Ruby (8 Agi)

Band of Devastation
Band of Devastation

Bloodlust Brooch
Dragonspine Trophy
Hourglass of the Unraveler

Ranged Weapon	Barrel-Blade Longrifle
Enchant	Stabilized Eternium Scope
Quiver	Gnoll Skin Bandolier
Ammo	Adamantite Shells

Ranged Weapon	Serpent Spine Longbow
Enchant	Stabilized Eternium Scope
Quiver	Ancient Sinew Wrapped Lamina
Ammo	Warden's Arrows

Groggan · 08/01/07, 8:00 PM

Could you add a 3rd MM option where under hasted conditions instead of dropping to a 1:1 rotation you remain in a 1:1.5 rotation and accept clips?

Kaber · 08/01/07, 8:07 PM

Originally Posted by Groggan

Could you add a 3rd MM option where under hasted conditions instead of dropping to a 1:1 rotation you remain in a 1:1.5 rotation and accept clips?

The Spreadsheet does not allow me to do that. Maybe we can recruit Cheeky to add that option?

Chulainn of Dalaran · 08/02/07, 5:21 AM

Could you not equip for an optimized haste state in Marksman that allowed for a tuned 1:1 shot rotation and get the best of Survival and/or Marksman...

If we take the 8 auto-shot 1:1 rotation of:
Arcane Shot, Auto Shot
Multi-shot, Auto Shot
Steady Shot, Auto Shot
Steady Shot, Auto Shot
Arcane Shot, Auto Shot
Steady Shot, Auto Shot
Steady Shot, Auto Shot

Assuming you are compensating manually for lag, and/or have good latency with a mouse-wheel driven shot rotation castsequence

0.1s human interface lag
0.5s autoshot warm up

The m avoid any clipping (essentially looking for the holy grail of weapon speeds of 1.67s)
Weapon Speed - No Clipping Haste State
2.4 - 67%
2.5 - 64%
2.6 - 62%
2.7 - 60%
2.8 - 58%
2.9 - 56%
3.0 - 54%
3.1 - 52%

Where Haste State is defined as

haste state = 1 / (1+ x1) / (1+ x2) / (1+ x3) ... / (1+ (sum of haste rating)/15.77)

for all % based haste procs, use abilities, and passive items (x1, x2, x3...) and the haste rating based procs, use abilities and passive items using the 15.77 conversion factor.

So now we have these magic numbers - what now?

The objective becomes - what haste items can be gathered to tune in your base weapon into a killing machine... or you could simply tune yourself to Rapid Fire and assume that even if you have IAotH, Skyfire Swiftness, Abacus of Violent Odds, Dragonspine Trophy and a few passive pieces, that they would have to be proc'ing over top of each other to match the 40% offered by Rapid Fire... (and I am lazy)

So...
15% - Quiver
40% - Rapid Fire

Haste State = 1 / (1.15) / (1.40) = 62%

The weapon speed that offers a clip free cycle at that state is...2.6 - let's say 2.7 just to be safe and compensate for minor errors in lag and interface further.

Comments, oversights and suggestions are warmly welcome.

Sapa · 08/02/07, 5:50 AM

Originally Posted by Kaber

The Spreadsheet does not allow me to do that. Maybe we can recruit Cheeky to add that option?

It does, just don't click the button!

Fill 60 seconds of dps time in spreadsheet by hand.

Kaber · 08/02/07, 4:48 PM

Originally Posted by Sapa

It does, just don't click the button!

Fill 60 seconds of dps time in spreadsheet by hand.

It is easy to do for the standard rotation, but calculating the quick shot section and doing it all by hand is going to take a while. Look for an update to my original posts in the next day or so.

Cheeky · 08/02/07, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kaber

It is easy to do for the standard rotation, but calculating the quick shot section and doing it all by hand is going to take a while. Look for an update to my original posts in the next day or so.

I'll try and get a button added for a QS-Max Specials rotation in the next version. I never really thought about intentionally clipping for QS, but I think the idea has merit.

Kaber · 08/02/07, 5:10 PM

Originally Posted by Chulainn of Dalaran

Could you not equip for an optimized haste state in Marksman that allowed for a tuned 1:1 shot rotation and get the best of Survival and/or Marksman...

If we take the 8 auto-shot 1:1 rotation of:
Arcane Shot, Auto Shot
Multi-shot, Auto Shot
Steady Shot, Auto Shot
Steady Shot, Auto Shot
Arcane Shot, Auto Shot
Steady Shot, Auto Shot
Steady Shot, Auto Shot

Assuming you are compensating manually for lag, and/or have good latency with a mouse-wheel driven shot rotation castsequence

0.1s human interface lag
0.5s autoshot warm up

The m avoid any clipping (essentially looking for the holy grail of weapon speeds of 1.67s)
Weapon Speed - No Clipping Haste State
2.4 - 67%
2.5 - 64%
2.6 - 62%
2.7 - 60%
2.8 - 58%
2.9 - 56%
3.0 - 54%
3.1 - 52%

Where Haste State is defined as

haste state = 1 / (1+ x1) / (1+ x2) / (1+ x3) ... / (1+ (sum of haste rating)/15.77)

for all % based haste procs, use abilities, and passive items (x1, x2, x3...) and the haste rating based procs, use abilities and passive items using the 15.77 conversion factor.

So now we have these magic numbers - what now?

The objective becomes - what haste items can be gathered to tune in your base weapon into a killing machine... or you could simply tune yourself to Rapid Fire and assume that even if you have IAotH, Skyfire Swiftness, Abacus of Violent Odds, Dragonspine Trophy and a few passive pieces, that they would have to be proc'ing over top of each other to match the 40% offered by Rapid Fire... (and I am lazy)

So...
15% - Quiver
40% - Rapid Fire

Haste State = 1 / (1.15) / (1.40) = 62%

The weapon speed that offers a clip free cycle at that state is...2.6 - let's say 2.7 just to be safe and compensate for minor errors in lag and interface further.

Comments, oversights and suggestions are warmly welcome.

That is correct as far as I can tell, every time I model a 2.7s weapon it usually leads to a far better BM rotation then any other weapon selection, barring passive hastes or a weapon that just blows it away in terms of base DPS and stats. Don Santos' gun does far more damage for a BM build despite the 15 DPS difference between it and the Merciless Gladiator's crossbow for example.

The post has been updated. I entered the standard 1:1.5 rotation in for quick shots, I just hope it was updated by the spread sheet as I adjusted other parts of the build.

Althir · 08/02/07, 5:44 PM

Presumably, none of these numbers account for the raid buffs the two classes are capable of giving. FI > Trueshot aura at fairly low gear levels, and scales to boot. So, even with low latency and the perfect combination of gear to make MM competative with BM, won't BM outweigh MM by virtue of FI anyway?

Kaber · 08/02/07, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by Althir

Presumably, none of these numbers account for the raid buffs the two classes are capable of giving. FI > Trueshot aura at fairly low gear levels, and scales to boot. So, even with low latency and the perfect combination of gear to make MM competative with BM, won't BM outweigh MM by virtue of FI anyway?

The builds include buffs they give themselves, so they are accounted for towards their own DPS. Also, the 125 AP from True Shot Aura actually boosts the damage of hunters and other classes by more than originally thought. 14 AP boosted DPS by 1 according to older damage models. Currently, however, it has come to light that most pure physical DPS classes get roughly .3 DPS per 1 AP. So 125 AP from TSA would actually boost most classes between 35 and 40 DPS. A player with FI proccing boosts their damage by 3%, which at the 1k DPS mark is 30 DPS. FI works on all classes equally, where TSA does not work as well for druids, and not at all for casters - so at the 1k mark I would call them fairly close to equal. Once you get beyond the 1k DPS mark, then yes: FI is a much better raid buff than TSA. At low gear levels TSA is actually much better than FI, unless you are considering a mix of T4-T5 low gear levels.

We could also make the argument, based on the raid buff alone, that Survival is the highest DPS build you can possibly take simply because of Expose Weakness.

Althir · 08/02/07, 6:03 PM

Originally Posted by Kaber

The builds include buffs they give themselves, so they are accounted for towards their own DPS. Also, the 125 AP from True Shot Aura actually boosts the damage of hunters and other classes by more than originally thought. Originally it was through 14 AP boosted DPS by 1. Currently, however, it has come to light that most pure physical DPS classes get roughly .3 DPS per 1 AP. So 125 coming from TSA would actually boost most classes between 35 and 40 DPS. A player with FI proccing boosts their damage by 3%, which at the 1k DPS mark is 30 DPS. FI works on all classes equally, where TSA does not work as well for druids, and not at all for casters - so at the 1k mark I would call them fairly close to equal. Once you get beyond the 1k DPS mark, then yes: FI is a much better raid buff than TSA. At low gear levels TSA is actually much better than FI, unless you are considering a mix of T4-T5 low gear levels.

We could also make the argument, based on the raid buff alone, that Survival is the highest DPS build you can possibly take simply because of Expose Weakness.

You could absolutely make that argument, and it would be legitimate, with 100% diminishing returns beyond 1.

Since EW does not stack in any way, any Survival Hunter beyond the 1st is strictly inferior DPS. If you can only take 1 hunter to your raid, it should be Survival.

There's also the issue of stackability within groups: TSA does not stack within a group, while FI does.

Edit: Also, the DPS values in the original post are much closer to 2000 than 1000, so with that quality of gear, FI is more like 60 DPS than 30, which is decidedly more than 35-40.

• Glaurong · 08/02/07, 7:23 PM

Moving this here since the discussion was sidetracking the Survival thread:

Originally Posted by Glaurong

I was thinking about haste today.

If you order shots according to how much damage they do you get:

Auto < Steady <= Arcane < Multi.

A typical 1:1.5 rotation is 2 Autos, 2 Steadies, 1 Other. These 5 shots take place in 2x seconds and 2.5 is a typical x.

A typical 1:1 rotation is 2 Autos, 2 Steadies. These 4 shots take place in 2x seconds and 2.0 is a typical x.

Both rotations have the same rate of fire (1 shot per second), the difference is a 1:1.5 rotation has a higher average shot damage and a higher special per second rate of fire. Then again, if you go with a priority queue for the 1:1 rotation these differences mostly go away (average shot damage will still be slightly lower as a higher percentage of your shots are auto shot).

So if you could take a hunter with no talents and give his gear enough free haste to take his weapon speed from 2.5 to 2.0, what do you get?

-You get the same rate of fire (1 shot per second).
-You get lower mana usage (2 specials per 4 seconds vs 3 specials per 5).
-You get lower average shot damage (more of your shots are autos).
-You get a simpler rotation.

So what does the same rate of fire and lower average damage mean?! Lower DPS.

Chulainn of Dalaran · 08/02/07, 8:40 PM

If you tuned the 1:1 to reduce any wait times you would be looking at 4 shots in x=3.3seconds not 4 shots in x=4 seconds.

I agree if you don't scrape out any dwell time from the 1:1 series, it won't hold up against a tuned 1:1.5s series. The trick is to tune your attack speeds to remove any wasted time to compare apples to apples.

• Glaurong · 08/02/07, 9:37 PM

Originally Posted by Chulainn of Dalaran

If you tuned the 1:1 to reduce any wait times you would be looking at 4 shots in x=3.3seconds not 4 shots in x=4 seconds.

I agree if you don't scrape out any dwell time from the 1:1 series, it won't hold up against a tuned 1:1.5s series. The trick is to tune your attack speeds to remove any wasted time to compare apples to apples.

Agreed, I just compared what is achievable in game with and game gear. A SV or MM hunter (people using a 1:1.5 rotation) with a 2.9 or 3.0 weapon can get down to around 2.0-2.1 speed

If you kick down to a 2.6 or 2.7 weapon you can get about 1.8-1.9 and you are dealing with a bit less slack but lose a ton of damage (since all the end game weapons are 3.0) and still have slack! It isn't clear if you end up doing more or less damage here because you have to get into a comparison of itemization costs. What would provide more DPS?

An okay tuned 1:1 rotation with a lower DPS 2.6-2.7 speed weapon and a bunch of item budget spent on haste?

OR

An okay tuned 1:1.5 rotation with a higher DPS 2.9-3.0 speed weapon and all item budget spend directly on DPS stats.

A small amount of haste on the other hand has an immediate and clear advantage for any BM hunter with a small amount of slack in their 1:1 rotation (although this does devalue IAotH).

All in all it makes my head hurt and I really wish Steady shot had not been introduced in it's current form. I still love my Hunter and I hope they address this stuff because I'd really like to come back to it at some point.

Hidden · 08/02/07, 9:39 PM

Originally Posted by Kaber

The builds include buffs they give themselves, so they are accounted for towards their own DPS. Also, the 125 AP from True Shot Aura actually boosts the damage of hunters and other classes by more than originally thought. 14 AP boosted DPS by 1 according to older damage models. Currently, however, it has come to light that most pure physical DPS classes get roughly .3 DPS per 1 AP. So 125 AP from TSA would actually boost most classes between 35 and 40 DPS. A player with FI proccing boosts their damage by 3%, which at the 1k DPS mark is 30 DPS. FI works on all classes equally, where TSA does not work as well for druids, and not at all for casters - so at the 1k mark I would call them fairly close to equal. Once you get beyond the 1k DPS mark, then yes: FI is a much better raid buff than TSA. At low gear levels TSA is actually much better than FI, unless you are considering a mix of T4-T5 low gear levels.

We could also make the argument, based on the raid buff alone, that Survival is the highest DPS build you can possibly take simply because of Expose Weakness.

That 0.3-0.4 DPS per AP is most likely for targets with 0 armor, you can reach 1000 DPS on 0 armor targets pretty easily and don't even need any raid equip for it.

Kaber · 08/03/07, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Hidden

That 0.3-0.4 DPS per AP is most likely for targets with 0 armor, you can reach 1000 DPS on 0 armor targets pretty easily and don't even need any raid equip for it.

I dont believe this was done with 0 armor.

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14715-c...equest_ap_dps/

Kaladian · 08/03/07, 10:20 AM

i'm very surprised to see how well Don Santo rifle did against the S2 xbow. i have been thinking about getting the xbow since it will hold be over till BT weapon wise freeing up DPS for other toys but after seeing this test i'm not so sure. I'm only 3 weeks from the S2 xbow. Kaber since you have both what would you say? i'm using Sunfury now as a BM.

Kaber · 08/03/07, 2:32 PM

Originally Posted by Kaladian

i'm very surprised to see how well Don Santo rifle did against the S2 xbow. i have been thinking about getting the xbow since it will hold be over till BT weapon wise freeing up DPS for other toys but after seeing this test i'm not so sure. I'm only 3 weeks from the S2 xbow. Kaber since you have both what would you say? i'm using Sunfury now as a BM.

I don't actually have the crossbow, I just used it as a reference point since it is a better option for MM builds than Don Santos' (and to show how weapon speed impacts different specs and rotations). I currently have Don Santos', and I love the thing. When it procs with my hourglass I jump up to almost 2800 AP in raid buffs. It procs very often as well. I think another big bonus is that guns get higher DPS ammo which makes up for the lower base DPS.

I do less damage than the wolfslayer when my proc is not up, so you do not see a real benefit until you go in to a 25man boss and sit back firing away. The proc goes off very often, so my DPS has come up a lot. A few weeks ago on mag I was using the crossbow off Atunmen and I barely broke 900 DPS. The following run I broke 1k DPS with Don Santos', and our latest run I did about 1060. I would say the gun has done a lot for me.

Kaladian · 08/03/07, 3:36 PM

Damn aobut a week ago i could have bought Don Santo's off a guildie for about 500 gold but i said no thanks. He sold it on the open market for 865.

• Glaurong · 08/03/07, 4:27 PM

Don Santos' is the new Ash for BM hunters. All of the other weapons look cool but really aren't upgrades due to the inefficiency they introduce into your 1:1 rotation. This is true from mixed blues/Kara gear all the way to Gronnstalker. I've had one for a while now and that is one of the many things that irritated me. No meaningful upgrades for that slot through 6 raid zones.