Yes, and 240 rating for 6 seconds. It has ~.7-1 PPM, assuming about .9 PPM it is a net DPS increase of around 2.2%.
Relentless depends entirely on your crit rate and personal DPS, but ranges from 1.6% to 1.9%. Post nerf, the Thundering will be reduced to ~1.5% increase in total DPS, making it the worse choice.
Yes, and 240 rating for 6 seconds. It has ~.7-1 PPM, assuming about .9 PPM it is a net DPS increase of around 2.2%.
Relentless depends entirely on your crit rate and personal DPS, but ranges from 1.6% to 1.9%. Post nerf, the Thundering will be reduced to ~1.5% increase in total DPS, making it the worse choice.
I know its not a huge factor but why is everyone who talks about these gems completely neglecting the 12 Agility on the relentless?
I know its not a huge factor but why is everyone who talks about these gems completely neglecting the 12 Agility on the relentless?
12 agility is ~7.5DPS with my gimp gear, so while its not a lot its still worth taking into consideration, but with the nerf to haste I honestly have a hard time seeing thundering being worth using.
Lots of continued theorycraft that T6 geared Marks hunters can do excellent damage, but still no WWS. Has anyone tried this yet? With scorpids nerfed, the incentive to switch for better damage is greater.
But it has a couple stopping points for me:
1. I don't have a DST, and likely will never get one
2. Any point that I have to do a 1.5:1 rotation means reaction time cuts into DPS significantly, since 1.5:1 can't be effectively macro'ed for raid use.
I know its not a huge factor but why is everyone who talks about these gems completely neglecting the 12 Agility on the relentless?
I accounted for it in my actual analysis, which I think I posted somewhere in this thread (what you quoted are the results I posted since I did not want to redo all the math in my post). Maybe it was another one, I'll have to double check.
The 12 Agility is .3% crit and 3.6 DPS, and then the 3% crit increase is .6 - 1.2% (20-40% crit).
At 800 DPS that is a minimum 1.3% damage increase with only 20% crit, with raid buffs most hunters will average out to 30% crit and 1k DPS which puts them at a minimum 1.56% DPS boost. For survival you would likely see a 1.9-2% DPS increase with 40% crit.
Lots of continued theorycraft that T6 geared Marks hunters can do excellent damage, but still no WWS. Has anyone tried this yet? With scorpids nerfed, the incentive to switch for better damage is greater.
But it has a couple stopping points for me:
1. I don't have a DST, and likely will never get one
2. Any point that I have to do a 1.5:1 rotation means reaction time cuts into DPS significantly, since 1.5:1 can't be effectively macro'ed for raid use.
A 1.5 spam macro kludge I use (even as BM for burst damage stuff like Curator evocations)
It is FAR from optimal but it throws Arcane and Multi in when your castsequence isn't doing anything. Although I hope you don't mind the failed spell thunk as I haven't figured a way to get rid of it and /castrandom will try to cast spells that are on cool.
Lots of continued theorycraft that T6 geared Marks hunters can do excellent damage, but still no WWS. Has anyone tried this yet? With scorpids nerfed, the incentive to switch for better damage is greater.
But it has a couple stopping points for me:
1. I don't have a DST, and likely will never get one
2. Any point that I have to do a 1.5:1 rotation means reaction time cuts into DPS significantly, since 1.5:1 can't be effectively macro'ed for raid use.
I've seen the WWS, I just no longer have webspace to post them and I dont want to flood my friend's webspace since he pays for it out of his own pocket. Needless to say, a MM with the DST alone can match a BM at the T5 gear level currently. It is not a stretch to say with haste in the mix, and based on the theory craft, T6 haste allows the MM to compete as well.
I've seen the WWS, I just no longer have webspace to post them and I dont want to flood my friend's webspace since he pays for it out of his own pocket.
You can post it publicly on the site for 15 days if I'm not mistaken.
The Thundering meta is a total DPS increase of between .3% and .6% over the Relentless gem depending on your build and crit rate. That is pre-nerf. Post-nerf it will provide an even smaller boost in over-all DPS, plus all possible gain can be easily lost. You cannot lose DPS with the relentless gem, making it a better post-nerf item if you would run the risk of dropping below the GCD.
Yes, theoretically the Thundering edges out the Relentless. Unfortunately that is not how it actually works in practice.
I hate to press a semi-theoretical point, because we all know that haste nerf is on our doorstep, but I have to insist that using the Thundering meta will never COST you dps from an objective standpoint.
And if you reference my original thread you will see that yes, in practice, it DOES provide more of an increase, not just on paper... I know I'm nitpicking, but this is the Class Mechanics forum. In the post you quoted I was just lamenting how undervalued that meta was, in its time.
I hate to press a semi-theoretical point, because we all know that haste nerf is on our doorstep, but I have to insist that using the Thundering meta will never COST you dps from an objective standpoint.
Yes, it can if the opportunity cost is higher than the benefit you get from it. Relentless is a guaranteed amount of damage based on your spec and gear. Thundering relies more on your shot rotation.
You can post it publicly on the site for 15 days if I'm not mistaken.
Never used WWS, I assume I can DL the report from his webspace and upload it to losendil (sp)? Its already parsed, so would I need the actual log from him?
I've never uploaded to the site, but I'm sure you'd want to use the original log to make sure there is no complications.
Hmm... that is probably going to be an issue, I'm confident he does not keep the 4mb logs taking up space on his computer, but I'll try and figure out a way to get the logs to a place where people can see them.
This begs the question of what will happen to his DPS once the nerf hits.
Following this thread there's one thing I'm not 100% confident that I understand. The numbers seem to be showing that at a certain point you can get too much haste, or at least that it stops becoming very benificial and that a MM hunter without IaotH but with DST would out dps a BM with both.
Since Steady Shot scales with haste clipping shouldn't be a problem even with rapid fire and all haste affects applied unless you got your speed under 1.00 because of latency and the .5 auto cast.
Would someone mind explaining how I'm looking at this wrong?
Global cooldown. With just a 15% quiver, you're down to a 1.3 Steady Shot cast. As a BM, you're down to a 1.1 second cast without any outside hastes / buffs.
For BM Hunters, extra haste at this point is mainly about reducing dead time, making your rotations with as little wasted time as possible.
For MM/Survival Hunters, haste means that it's viable to change to a 1:1 rotation. Such a rotation is, in my eyes at least, much easier to maintain.
The difference is basically:
BM: Tighten up the rotation you're already using. Extreme hastes leads to specials delaying Auto Shot some.
MM/Survival: Keep roughly the same amount of specials in a given time frame, increase amount of Auto Shots by ~50%.
Note that this is slightly simplified, and procs and whatnot really mess up 'explaning easily' :P
Another thing to note is that the 0.5 second Auto Shot cast does not appear to be affected by hastes. This, in addition to the global cooldown, is the reason for it being possible to have too much haste.
As a BM Hunter, imagine having the following up:
Quiver, Serpent's Swiftness, DST proc, Abacus trinket, Rapid Fire, Quick Shots, Bloodlust.
You know just by thinking about it that this is going to be insanely fast, and that you're going to be delaying Auto Shots on virtually every Steady Shot you cast. Past a certain point (dependent on variables like latency and reaction time), the value of haste diminishes rapidly.
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
As a quick clarification though, you won't always be extending your auto out .5 sec unless you're steady goes off right before your auto would, correct? Meaning that if your firing Steady .1 or .2 seconds past the prime point you're only pushing auto back by .1 or .2.
I've been following the haste stat for a while, because I've felt it's the stat that makes MM viable end-game again, at least for me. I personally have problems maintaining a MM shot rotation; I'll freely admit that the first problem I have with MM is a skill level one.
However, haste rating looks like it will have effect with MM because of the MM tree's ability to inflate your stats, and then your haste rating mimicking Serpent's Swiftness, for at least you. It seems like there'd be a critical mass of haste needed, but once you reach it, MM would outdo BM.
My question is, however, after the 2.2 haste nerf to 15.7=1&, does that critical mass exist? Is there enough haste gear endgame to even achieve what is needed? Or even, is my entire thinking wrong fundamentally, that haste does not make MM more viable than BM?
I've been pouring and pouring over these forums, trying to find definitive answers regarding haste, BM, MM, clipping and clobbering, and I really can't say I've come to many conclusions. But I've come to question more about my class recently, and I feel I know a lot less than I thought I did. However, it could just be misinformation clouding my judgement.
Clipping: My DPS numbers are good (WWS Rage Winterchill, 1386 DPS), and my ratio of auto-to-steady seems right, implying im not clipping too poorly (at least that's what I think it means).
Serpent's Spine vs. Sunfury: I currently have Serpent's Spine and Sunfury, and been running with the SS, but according to Cheeky's, the Sunfury is a signifigant DPS upgrade for me. Again, is this because the increased speed gets pushed more by my haste rating, making the gap with serpent spine bigger, and tighening my rotation?
Haste: I'm hovering at 2.04 attack speed at the moment, and I really do not want to go below 2.0 because of latency issues and whatnot, but is that thinking even correct? I've gathered that as BM, you want to use haste to tighten your rotation, but not make the speed plummet too far to induce clipping. I'm ballparking, based on reading here, and anecdotal castbar experience that my steady shot is around 1.1 seconds, .5 autoshot timer, and with my ping, .2 latency, putting me at 1.8 seconds for a full rotation. Giving me .2 seconds of human reaction / macro spamming seems appropriate. As I stack more haste tho, doesnt my steady shot get quicker, thus my auto shot timer starts sooner, thus pushing my entire rotation tighter? With .2 latency and .2 reaction time, I can afford to get my full steady > auto to 1.1 seconds and not run into the GCD. Correct? Am I being too liberal on my reaction time buffer?
Marksman: If there is enough haste rating out there, and rough calculations tell me that post patch, I'll be able to -- fully geared with haste -- achieve about 12% haste, I believe that puts a standard MM shot timer down to around 2.3ish seconds. Does the drastically increased AP from MM & BT/Hyjal gear and gems make up for that gap? It seems like at some point, the 10% AP curve of MM would outpace the 20% attack speed curve of BM, given enough AP, if you had haste rating to cheat the MM numbers up. I find mentions here and there of MM builds, or 36/25 builds being the "new" spec, but no proof. Is it just a myth?
I admit, my head is absolutely swimming right now, so I may be asking illogical questions, but I've spent most of the weekend pouring over hunter threads here, and I'm getting a lot of conflicting information. I'm hoping to get some solid footing with this post, and moving on from there.
08/20/07, 2:03 PM
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