I'm a little confused when people are saying that because it got moved down to a 3.4 speed that it's bad. Granted I'm not your star PvPer but from a PvE standpoint it's still a straight up upgrade. Higher topend, higher bottomend and more white dps. Slam is not normalized but the entire range of the weapon dmg is higher then CE so does it matter it's faster? On a side note of Apolyon not having ArP I don't really see why you need it. Every boss in Sunwell aside from Brutallus is 6200 armor so your soft cap is already 1350. Maybe it's because I'm a JC/BS so I get extra ArP items but doesn't seem that bad to me as I"m trying to find a way to get rid of ArP for more strength in my ideal gearset.
It used to be slower with the same listed DPS. Due to Slam not being normalized, you could get higher Slams in it's old state. It's still an upgrade, but it's not as big of an upgrade over CE as what it previously was. Personally, I would want one of these paired with a CE if TG is real, for leveling anyway.
I still have not made my mind about haste.
The general thinking has always been that haste is bad for slam rotations. And checking the gear of slammers there's hardly haste at all.
But when I think about it or check spreadsheets, haste seems to be of high value. Reducing cycle time increases all our damage, except Deep Wounds. At least until around the 2.5 seconds cap.
Then with this way of thinking and the backup of the spreadsheet "saying" the same what are the reasons I don't see slammers going for haste? Lack of good itemization with it pre-Sunwell? The theory of increasing dps through shorter cycle doesn't translate fully at practice? Is hard to keep the hit and expertise caps together with decent crit for flurry&BF uptime when going for haste?
Maybe you think is a silly question and I'm already giving some answers but I search to decide if pick haste or not.
One example pf gear would be for gloves. The [Gauntlets of Rapidity] or [Pillager's Gauntlets]
I think yes. Unless you're talking an incredibly uneven exchange of hit for crit/ap/ArP it is always neccesary. The damage lost by not maintaining a perfect rotation is staggering, as demonstrable by simply having a complete cycle throughout an encounter versus interrupted. Some things like resisted shouts are going to be unavoidable and completely up to chance, but the core of Arms DPS is the rotation. You endanger it, your DPS drops like a fat man with cement shoes off a New Jersey pier. Using hit food or re-gemming is the easiest, most expedient, and most beneficial way to reach the hitcap barring straight gear upgrades (note "upgrade" doesn't just mean a straight upgrade for one slot, it means a change in gear that benefits you by a net gain in DPS, survivability, etc.)
EDIT: I wish people would read complete posts before spouting off, too. I added a caveat specifically to deal with uneven exchanges of stats.
Not to beat a dead horse, but couldn't you apply this same logic to expertise? Your chance to "hit" (land an attack) isn't capped at 9% it's 15.25% - 15.50%. So why are Warriors that may be hit capped, but not capped on expertise putting out such good numbers with a 2h? I'm capped on expertise, or at least as close as I can possibly get through itemization and short 3 hit rating. I have the vendor bow if I start seeing that big of an impact from misses, but there are other Warriors that are either not Human or do not use an SoC and are therefore not capped on the ability to have an attack actually land that seem to be doing just fine.
Maybe you think is a silly question and I'm already giving some answers but I search to decide if pick haste or not.
One example pf gear would be for gloves. The [Gauntlets of Rapidity] or [Pillager's Gauntlets]
It's not about picking haste, or hit, or armor pen, or anything. It's about picking up the items that give you the most DPS, when they're combined with the rest of your items and talents and your own personal ability. [Gauntlets of Rapidity] are decent, but [Grips of Silent Justice] are better. [Pillager's Gauntlets] are just plain awful.
The only good Tier 6 pieces with haste are mail, and those few slots all have better plate or significantly better leather.
-edit- Damnit, I meant to make both posts as one... too sleepy
Because dodges still generate rage (albeat less), but misses don't?
I wasn't even considering rage generation but attacks that land. You don't gain rage from instants, Slams or Heroics anyway. I know how missing white attacks will screw up a rotaion (which is why I don't like going really low on hit with slow/slow as Fury) but I was talking about general DPS. And even if you are factoring in rage loss, wouldn't you still lose more rage overall from a mob still having a 1% chance to dodge than you having a 0.2% chance to miss?
have to think, as your weapon approaches the 2.5s where gcd can replace quartz, your slams are also costing you more of your white damage.
at 3.5s, a perfectly timed slam (.5 sec) only costs 1/7 of your auto attack
at 2.5s a perfectly timed slam costs 1/5 of your auto attack.
just like slam would be worthless if you were swinging at .5s. as you get more haste, slam gets worse, and sword spec/spamstring builds become more appealing. bloodlust helps spamstring builds more, which is why you'll see them topping WWS charts.
i haven't done any serious calculations, but i rather have crit/ap over haste for a slam build.
slam is priority.
white>slam>MS>white>slam>WW>white>slam>MS>white>slam>hamstring/demo/tc/bs
I don't think slam is effected by haste. I think it goes off the weapons base attack speed. I also think it's worth to point out that you can use imp slam .4 seconds before a white attack without stopping the white from going off. I read this in a different forum and now time all my slams to start <.4sec before a white attack. This means that the cap for weapon speed with a slam rotation is actually more like 2.9seconds but then again, some fights get kinda laggy so I end up using slam later and later.
Getting back to the original post, I'd go with cat since ArP is godly for your rage generation and DPS output. Furthermore, swordspec pwns for dps after you get about 30% crit which is pretty easy to get.
Not to beat a dead horse, but couldn't you apply this same logic to expertise? Your chance to "hit" (land an attack) isn't capped at 9% it's 15.25% - 15.50%. So why are Warriors that may be hit capped, but not capped on expertise putting out such good numbers with a 2h? I'm capped on expertise, or at least as close as I can possibly get through itemization and short 3 hit rating. I have the vendor bow if I start seeing that big of an impact from misses, but there are other Warriors that are either not Human or do not use an SoC and are therefore not capped on the ability to have an attack actually land that seem to be doing just fine.
You echo my sentiments exactly. Being just short cap isn't going to destroy your DPS. Cruorr posted this WWS Report. Even with hit food, at 121 hit unbuffed, he is still 1 rating short of cap, and he managed to pull 2073 DPS on Brutallus. They were not using a Moonkin either.
Made a simple combatlog parser specifically for determining just how much damage Blood Frenzy adds in given fight.
It's eats a combatlog and spits out how much dmg BF added to each person present and total dmg/dps added.
Not particulary user friendly, if you can compile it you'll find slightly more help in the source but figured i'd throw it out here.
I still have not made my mind about haste.
The general thinking has always been that haste is bad for slam rotations. And checking the gear of slammers there's hardly haste at all.
But when I think about it or check spreadsheets, haste seems to be of high value. Reducing cycle time increases all our damage, except Deep Wounds. At least until around the 2.5 seconds cap.
Then with this way of thinking and the backup of the spreadsheet "saying" the same what are the reasons I don't see slammers going for haste? Lack of good itemization with it pre-Sunwell? The theory of increasing dps through shorter cycle doesn't translate fully at practice? Is hard to keep the hit and expertise caps together with decent crit for flurry&BF uptime when going for haste?
Maybe you think is a silly question and I'm already giving some answers but I search to decide if pick haste or not.
One example pf gear would be for gloves. The [Gauntlets of Rapidity] or [Pillager's Gauntlets]
Most haste gear you see until Sunwell is probably not worth it over other pieces you could pick up in that slot , the BT/Hyjal stuff is poorly thought out, i.e. items only have hit/str, which is kinda lame
I'm a little confused when people are saying that because it got moved down to a 3.4 speed that it's bad. Granted I'm not your star PvPer but from a PvE standpoint it's still a straight up upgrade. Higher topend, higher bottomend and more white dps. Slam is not normalized but the entire range of the weapon dmg is higher then CE so does it matter it's faster? On a side note of Apolyon not having ArP I don't really see why you need it. Every boss in Sunwell aside from Brutallus is 6200 armor so your soft cap is already 1350. Maybe it's because I'm a JC/BS so I get extra ArP items but doesn't seem that bad to me as I"m trying to find a way to get rid of ArP for more strength in my ideal gearset.
With a 3.4 speed weapon, you'll find yourself in the ~2.5s swing timer zone more often than with a 3.6s swing weapon. Similar to haste (which it unsurprisingly has on it), it isn't "bad," but it is suboptimal enough to disappoint.
Anyone have a video of arms warrior doing 2K DPS on brut?
Unfortunately, a slam rotation doesn't really lend itself well to FRAPS at all, unless you've got a great rig with 2 hard drives. A cursory glance at WCM only turns up one actual PvE arms video from someone's Prince Malchezaar kill.
Why cant ya fraps a slam warrior? i used to do it all the time on my old rig (which ran at like 7fps without fraps running)
As your FPS decreases, your ability to hit the slams perfectly also decreases, so when putting fraps (normally decreases FPS) your performance both in game and on the metres will decrease.
Qumulox is right on though - ArP is already too much on items. We usually have imp expose so my soft cap is below 900... With CE i actually have problems getting below it - i find lack of ArP on Apolyon a great thing. Also speed? Meh i went by Graul idea, and tried Brutallus as arms without imp slam. No slams, 1971 dps (great group though and 2 heroisms). But thats with only 1 DW use and no recklessness (there were some fuckups). Thats WHILE keeping imp clap/demo (which is actually really easy and not affecting dps much with this way of playing - while imp clap compeltely throws off any slam rotations). Im not sure if Ill get back to slams ever ^_^.
Qumulox is right on though - ArP is already too much on items. We usually have imp expose so my soft cap is below 900... With CE i actually have problems getting below it - i find lack of ArP on Apolyon a great thing. Also speed? Meh i went by Graul idea, and tried Brutallus as arms without imp slam. No slams, 1971 dps (great group though and 2 heroisms). But thats with only 1 DW use and no recklessness (there were some fuckups). Thats WHILE keeping imp clap/demo (which is actually really easy and not affecting dps much with this way of playing - while imp clap compeltely throws off any slam rotations). Im not sure if Ill get back to slams ever ^_^.
So you replace Slam with Heroic Strike in the rotation?
Apart from not being hampered by the swing timer (which gives you alot more mobility) the only big benefit I can see from that is that HS can proc WF. Wouldn't you end up lacking rage at some point, without alot of crits.
Suppose 2 Heroims would help alot there, as will a feral druid to keep crit streaks up.
All here are only discussing Cats edge vs Apolyon. No ones mentioning Shivering Felspine. I know that it has no Arp, but when I put it in the spreadsheet from grim, I`m getting better dps. Rigth now I`m trying figuring ozut which weapon to use (have both). Because in my feeling I have mor ragestarving with the felspine. Also I have still some problems getting to the new speed. So why is nobody considering the felspine?
I was curious... A friend of mine, who plays his Arms Warrior in endgame, and I were doing a lot of examining and simulations, and we came to the conclusion that at approx 4/6 Sunwell range, it seems to be better to drop Solarian's Sapphire for Madness of the Betrayer, allowing you to swap other hit pieces out for more damage and crit. While the Madness itself doesn't make up the damage bonus, the other gear, which keeps you hit capped and Expertise Capped, while providing A LOT more crit and damage is more beneficial to the entire raid by keeping BF up. Has anyone else come to similar conclusions?
You're saying that the AP given by Solarian's sapphire (5*70*1.25 = 437.5, fully talented) to the full group is worth less than MoTB+some gains from swapping out hit gear to crit/AP gear? Not very likely in my opinion.
Keeping BF up? With decent levels of crit (40%+ which you will easily reach anyway if you're in SWP) I don't think it's very likely that it ever comes off (well, of course it does the uptime is something like 99% assuming 9 attacks that can crit during 12 sec). Anyway, the difference will be tiny in BF uptime between changing a couple of gear slots.
So you replace Slam with Heroic Strike in the rotation?
Apart from not being hampered by the swing timer (which gives you alot more mobility) the only big benefit I can see from that is that HS can proc WF. Wouldn't you end up lacking rage at some point, without alot of crits.
Suppose 2 Heroims would help alot there, as will a feral druid to keep crit streaks up.
I mostly hamstring - (hamstring - 10 rage, 100 dmg on average and 5% to proc another white hit - averaging at 2700 dmg or so counting crits - so 135 damage and 5% to return i dunno - 50 rage on average? 7.5 rage for 235 damage. Heroic adds like 160 dmg but also gives impale on crits - around 400 dmg 50% of the time, and reduces glancings - around 500 damage 25% of the time. Overall heroic damage add is ~500, but the rage cost is above 50 counting rage loss. Hamstring gets clear priority).
As for benefits. Dont get me wrong - any spreadsheet will show you that *perfectly* used slam rotation outperforms everything - including DW fury. Any spreadsheet also will show you that any sort of lag (be it connection or "human lag), DRASTICALLY reduces dps. Same goes for cutting white swings etc. Counting Slam's "opportunity cost" at 1 sec which sounds reasonable given how its cast time + at least one latency (you can use timers to cut half of latency lag but not full), + human mistakes), for a decent amount of haste like i do its around 2.7 ->3.7 increase in swings. Given how slam doubles the damage approximately from "swing tied attacks", Slam is adding at best 50% of your white swings in non slam rotation (in fact less due to wf). So counting white damage at like 55% like i had, we are talking about slam adding 27% to dps but:
- Any human error due to cutting white swings gives a HUGE dps loss. Missing 1 swing usually makes you miss 1-2 special attacks as well , so 1 swing mishap loses you 1-2% of dps on a fight like brutallus - thats 40 dps loss per wrongly timed slam.
- You lose the heroic/hamstring addition - hamstrings are around 100dps (5%), same for heroic. So you lose 10% here.
Overall non-slam rotation is probably around 15% worse if you dont make mistakes with cutting white swings. Main reason why i go with it, is that it lets me keep imp demo/imp clap with very little cost - i really have no problems or noticable dps loss from using clap - usually makes me miss a hamstring or heroic, but nothing important. If you can just focus on personal dps - probably slamming will give you SLIGHTLY better results, If you have to keep debuffs, nonslam is the way to go. And no slam makes it easy to focus on leading raid for me .
05/25/08, 6:13 AM
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