Ever since getting my Cataclysm's I was wondering whether to keep using Slam or just go with priorities... I did find out that it's not really a problem that it's a bit faster. Crunching some numbers, Slam comes up with about a 15% advantage in pure theorycraft and in reality I have also noticed a DPS gain when I can Slam properly. The big problem with that is that Slam cycles are fragile, and any interference (lack of rage, movement, ..) will collapse it like a house of cards. Also, by stretching the rotation that way Mortal Strike and Whirlwind will only be used fairly inefficiently. Sooo...

By simply dropping Slam there are several points to gain:

• Using Mortal Strike / Whirlwind cooldowns to the fullest
• More Windfury procs, especially with some Haste effects
• Very little rage starvation in my experience
• Heroic Strike as rage dump makes a swing non-glancing or adds Impale bonus

These make up for much of what you gain by weaving Slam into your swings. I think the conclusion I'm drawing is to do both, where applicable. Gorefiend, with the rage clouds and static positioning practically has a "SLAM ME" sticker on his back. On fights that are more dynamic one might as well not bother with it.


I think numbers should always be taken with a grain of salt. Is the crit rate higher than his usual? Extraordinary number of Windfury/Sword/DST procs? Group buffs stacked more favorably? Chained Haste potions and perfectly used Recklessness? Always nice to see impressive numbers, but there's an explanation for every "WTF?".


I have done some testing with combat logging recently and I can't consistently have Slam land faster than 1-1,2 seconds after the swing hits. If I try to time with the ~100ms lag window, the swing is interrupted occasionally and sometimes when I felt the timing was perfect it seems that I've "clipped" extra attacks from auto attack (SCT notified me but they never came up). I aim to hit the button as the white hit flashes, so I assume that this overhead is not too extraordinary. Have any of you taken a closer look at your timing in actual combat?

I looked at my last Mother Shahraz log now, and I was a bit suprised. My usual lag shown with Quartz is ~200 ms. I don't use this when timing slam (eg. I push slam button when the Quartz swing timer bar fills). The lowest I could get was 0.7s. Most are around 1s, with some up to 1.5s. It seems I have to be a bit more aggressive.

Does anybody else have visual problem with the swing timer bar with Quartz? I feel it's too thin and I'm missing a latency indicator that normal cast bar has.

You can adjust the swing timer bar in Quartz to be as thick as you like, but I'm pretty sure fancy stuff like latency isn't available. Personally, good old simple Swinger is still my favorite.

Yes I regularly check my performance in the timing on the WWS logs, they are however not perfect in timing stuff, sometimes even really bad. According to the wws logs I'm usually 650-1000 ms after autohit, average would be around 800 so a delay of 150-500 (average 300) milliseconds. I rarely if ever clip the autohit, at least so far but I'll probably do it soon as I'm currently trying to improve my cycles while I'm fine tuning my addon.

When I get back home tonight I'll try to make an addon (unless to drunk) that calculates the exact time between autohit and slam and look for clips and post it here so ppl can try it. I'll also (try to) include a check if the "right" cycles where used.

I'd like some numbers too, for my DPS sheet. The damage is too high with absolutly no delay .

The only reliable way to figure out how effectively you're using slam is to be able to stand facing a mob and swimg/slam it, then count up your total auto hits over the total duration, and see how far off that number is from your auto swing time + 500ms.

Note that you have to count latency twice when watching your swing timer, since they only start after your log says you did an auto hit, which is already Xms behind the server. Then you have to press slam 2Xms before the end of the swing timer to get it to start casting as soon after the auto hit as possible.

The log is entirely innaccurate though. Most of my slams while solo'ing where I can concentrate are 700 to 850ms behind the auto-hit in the log. I spent a couple hours watching this with the intent of writing an addon that would display SCT messages DDR-style based on how long after your last auto hit your slam landed. I found instead however that the log was pretty much useless. I had a numbr of slams land 300ms or less after my auto hit, and one land 80ms before the auto hit registered in the log.

Any ideas on how much stats it's worth giving up for -armour? The 2.3 cloak:
+34 Stamina
+20 Critical Strike rating
+20 Resilience rating
+46 Attack Power
+112 Armor Penetration
is a clear upgrade for my pvp cloak, but for pve I use [Black-Iron Battlecloak] which would seem to be better, unless -armour is better than I think.

Armor penetration is extremely hard to quantify because it changes from target to target and depending on debuffs. But generally it is a very efficient stat in a raid, the cloak is probably somewhat better than both craftables (and about as good as your Black-Iron).

I don't see why they would put it on pvp gear, it does nothing aside from making low-armor targets squishier than they already are, doing little against the rest and making it more attractive for PvE than it should be...

The new PvP cloak is slightly better, but who knows what else 2.3 brings.

On a generic raid boss, that's what I'm getting as well. Against a high armor target in PvP, comes out the same.

I did some testing and in real play (instancing) it seems an average of 3.7 - 3.9 cycle time is with a 3.8 spd weapon, and 5/5 flurry and mongoose enchant and no haste gear (flurry and mongoose is ofc not always up). It was just some first numbers but after a few hundred 'real' environment slams, but maybe it's a good indication of where real slam cycles do for dps

often theoretical dps is calculated with constant flurry and no latency or reaction time. this would make a cycle speed of 3.54. that would make real dps 90-95% of theoretical dps. It might be possible to do the cycles beter, but I pushed myself pretty hard.

Most increases are small steps, but they all add up.

I'm curious... would switching to the Lionheart series from the BS axe series (given the human racial to swords as well) provide a noticeable DPS increase? Or would I only be looking at going from maybe 1200-1400 DPS to 1250-1450 DPS?[/quote]

50 dps increase is quite big when you upgrade only 1 piece of gear.

Do you have any weapon skill from talents or gear? If you don't you will get a free 3% hit from the human racial for using a sword. If you already have WM (4 weapon skill) you will get additional 1.9% hit from human racial. If the sword and axe were identical in stats then you should most definitely choose the sword.

Sorry, it was late and I chose a poor example for boosted numbers.

I'm trying to justify dropping a little over 6% crit, a little AP, and some 14-15 odd top-end for Sword Spec, LH proc, and human racial (though I already have WM).

As a PVE fury MS warrior the question you ask is if Sword Spec is better than Axe spec,the answer in my opinion is yes.

Also, Im wondering what people do with heroism. For me it feels like it breaks my slam cycle so i dont slam when heroism is up. Even if heroism decreases slam cast time it is probably too fast to have any GCs in between. And this makes me feel like i dont benefit from heroism as much as other classes/specs.

If I get heroism, I will most of the time slam once every second white attack, instead of every white attack. This gives me time to use my instants. For me, the best timing for heroism is at the last 20%. You can simple pop a haste pot, use your trinket, deathwish and recklessness. This brings your attack speed down enough to make executes a viable rage-dump.

If you are getting Heroism sub 20%, I would highly recommend swapping a DW weaopon set in.

!!!!!

If the proposed change to Imp Berzerker Stance goes live, could 2h Fury be the way to go over MS/Blood Frenzy spec? I've played with both since my recent change to dps from tanking, and it seems like as gear improves, 2h Fury begins to outpace Arms. I'm thinking the extra 10% threat reduction might push it over the edge.

Eh well.. the only reason you would go 2handed for raid dps is becuase of the added dps blood frenzy brings your raid. If you only care about your own dps then dw fury is far better.