Blood Frenzy is highly overrated

Let's assume you have 5k melee raid dps.

* not all mobs are bleedable
* many mobs have adds coming in, there are not many fights where all melee go for the same target all the time.
* it takes up one more debuff slot (and most guilds do or should cap the dubuff slots)
* it forces to a less dps performing spec.

In absolute optimum conditions it would give 200 increased raid dps.

in reality, I rough estimate it would add ~150 dps because melee are not static on one encounter.

If you have capped on debuffslots you will push off high damage dots and stuff, if it's not you could add more (hunter stings etc). so assuming best case scenario you take the spot of a 40 dps debuff slot (sting, poison or something).

so it's about 110 dps, and compared to dury slam assuming you are well geared it should do about that much more.

On bosses whom are bleed immune are fury is obviously better.

5k melee raid dps sounds very very low, we go with 2 hunters 3 rogues 1 enhancement shaman for normal raids, then add prot warriors dps. low but not non-existant.

It has already been proven that Blood Frenzy can more than make up for switching from DW to 2H using various WWS reports. Key word being can. You need a non-shitty warrior who is paying attention and maximizing their slam potential to do it though. A perfect slam rotation with a 3.8 weapon would outdo DW, but reality is nowhere near that, so the best 2H warriors can just come on par with DW, which easily means Blood Frenzy gives you a lot.

For what it's worth, i tested 2H Fury vs MS in the DPS War Spreadsheet and the results were that 2H Fury came out about 150 dps higher. There also seemed to be very little difference in the endgame gear (i.e. from all current items basically the same ones are endgame for both builds), except that you have less room for haste gear with 2H Fury since you have more points in flurry. So if MS/BF builds are adding 150ish dps to the raid then basically the specs have the same raid dps benefit.

I would be interested if anyone else wants to test these 2 specs and see if they come out with similar results.

Note that the spreadsheet:
*Assumes 100% rampage uptime, which may not be reasonable with a slam build
*Does not include deep wounds damage, which would tic for more with 2H Fury
*Does not include reaction time for slam cycles

Out of curiosity, can you provide this WWS after windfury change? Our dps warrior specced dw fury instantly after change.

Use the search function on these forums. The WF change meant that an even smaller % of the DPS warrior population can make Blood Frenzy worth it now.

HS has the extra threat. An effective slam cycle isn't so much of a rage dump as a near-instant special.

I'm under the impression that Slam is so good because its effectively a rage efficient Mortal Strike, another attack.

So if you hit for 1000, and heroic strike adds 200dmg to an attack, surely doing an extra attack of 1000+slam bonus dmg (and loosing ~10% of your next auto-swing timing, loss of 100dmg) would be better than simply gaining 200dmg from HS, and denying yourself rage also.*

All the extra haste would do is increase the %dps loss from the auto-swing clipping with imperfect Slam timing. But even still I think it would out dps HS-only, just with less than ideal stats... being a net loss of damage.

*Yes I know those numbers are way off, I'm a hunter not a warrior. But at least as a hunter I have no sympathy when it comes to to Slam timing :P

I dunno, I've been following the trinity of the 3 DPS Warrior threads, Spreadsheet/Future/2-Hand, and I still haven't seen this solid proof about Blood Frenzy, before, during, or after the WF nerf.

with the best gear available thats not true. 2h fury has the potential to do more dps than dw.

5k is REALLY low for a raid. Once you see the later fights in BT/Hyjal you'll understand, especially with fights like teron/RoS where maximizing your dps is key. Also, don't forget about hunters.

Is there anything about FLK that makes your dps higher than normal? Checking your armoury our gear and spec are similar, but I've yet to break 1k dps on any fight. Does an enhance shammy over a restro and haste pots make that much difference?

Edit:I normally tank something on the FLK fight and we haven't done Solarion.

Gorefiend is undead and bleed immune...

it's ofc impossible to estimate raid dps as it differentiates a lot between fights/guilds/and raid setup. but let's have a go from TK and upwards:

Al'ar: elemental: immune
Void Reaver: mechanical immune
Solarian: a lot of AoE dps and on different targets. BF will not have much effect on AoE encounters. in one of the very top end wss reports solarian himself took 1.8 million physical damage in 4 minutes equalling about 7500 melee dps.
Kaelthas: phase 1 is not dps interesting at all, phase 2 the weapons are bleed immune, after phase 3 phase 4 and 5 are just a strech to the death. With rogues getting MC'd people back the melee dps on KT is not that extreme, and it's not that important anyways (whase 2 and 3 is where dps matters).

result: 2 are immune, 1 it's good for, 1 it's decent

Hyjal
Winterchill: immune
Anetheron BF rocks
Kaz'rogal: BF rocks
Azgalor: BF rocks
Archimonde: BF is good.

Result: 1 immune 4 it's v good for

Black Temple
High Warlord Naj'entus: BF rocks
Supremus: not v good (low melee dps)
Shade of Akama: v good
Teron gorefiend: immune
Gurtogg Bloodboil: v good
Reliquary of souls: immune ?
council (?)
Illidan Stormrage (?)

results: 1 (2?) immune, 1 it's not so useful, 3 it's v good at, 2 I don't know

I guess it all dpends where youre at atm. if youre stuck on gorefiend it clearly sucks, if youre stuck at some other fight because of DPS it obviouslt rock. I'm just saying it's generally overrated because ppl only looks at it's benefits on encounters where it really shines while there are quite a number of encounters where the bosses are bleed immune or you dps a lot of targets and BF will not be applied.

Even on encounters that are melee/physical dps friendly and you have 10-15k physical dps it still only adds some 500 raid dps, subtract the debuff slot it takes and it's about 450 or so. assume you roughly loose 200 dps on speccing MS spec, your net gain is 250 dps on fights where physical dps is really nice. you loose 200 dps on immune bosses.

Also encounters where it's really important to maximize dps (teron) the boss is bleed immune. I don't know the RoS encounter, but from what I have understood they are bleed immune too (again this is just 3rd hand info).

And please don't take this wrong, I think BF is great and I strongly advocate 33/28 builds on a warrior (I even made some guide to slam warriors not to long ago stating this). I'm just saying many tend to overemphazise the importance of this talent. It's great but it's not 3% of the total raids dps on every encounter like some people claim. BF alone does not justify a spot if the person do not output decent dps. BF does not increase the raids dps by 1k dps just magically. If a person drops a lot in dps going from dualwield to BF debuffer he shouldn't

Weird, I'm using Rupture on him constantly.

my misstake then I haven't used BF there, I just assumed as he is undead.

Undead yes, bleed immune no.

Theres really only a few bleed immune mobs / bosses in the game, and most of them are mechanical mobs (Void Reaver for example)

Supremus however is also bleed immune, but I think thats about it for important exceptions.

Serida has a DST, which changes things a little. I'm still not convinced going without slam is a good idea, even with a DST, but Serida consistently has 100+ dps on me so I don't think he's doing something wrong

I don't use haste potions, though I really should. I usually have a enh shaman and a feral druid in my group though. Really though the dps comes from having a clean slam rotation for a whole fight. Sword spec also makes a pretty big difference, as it looks like you are axes from your armory. The rage it can give helps a lot with not having bad spikes of no rage, though you still end up getting them.

Deep Wounds will be up more than Flurry. It lasts for 12 seconds, while Flurry only lasts for 3 hits, which should be around 9-10 seconds. The problem is you can't just compare your ticks to fight duration, because of how Deep Wounds is bugged. If you crit under 3 seconds apart it keeps refreshing it and it doesn't tick. This can cut out a significant amount of ticks, and I would kill for them to fix it somehow.

As said before, all bosses in bt/mh are bleedable. And yes bf is a big waste if you go with a very caster heavy raid. My guild however usually use 3 rogues 2 dps warrios (1 fury and 1 ms) 1 hunter and 2 druids. Now I consider all our physical dpsers to be good players, and thus on a fight such as teron they all do 1-1.3k dps depending on their class. Now for a person who does ~1k dps thats about 40 added dps from bf, so all our melee gains between 40-45 dps. Now lets see 40 * 7 = 210 dps. I doubt that if I specced fury (provided the same lvl of fury gear as my 2handed gear) that I would do more than 100-150 more dps. And thus it makes it very worthwile.

So why would it be negative to force someone to a specc wich is less prerforming if the raids total dps increases? I bet you dont play with survival hunters either. Tell me a fight where there are many mobs coming in.. All dps follow my target around anyway for trash/adds, so you dont really have a point.

As you said yourself total gain would be about 100-160 dps, considering you use a debuff slot (at least we have no trouble filling them) thats another 50 dps or so lost (a hunter could serpent sting or whatever instead). 50-110 dps is a decent gain yes, and I never really argued that BF is bad (which I think some got the impression I did). But I think a lot of people think it adds loads more than 50-110 dps to the raid (again thats no abolute numbers it's just some indications of numbers) and thus the word overrated. BF is nice but it's not as nice as many think it is.

Oh, I assumed the "haste" buff you were getting was pots, but I guess that was actually your DST. Still need that too

Also, regarding BF uptime, you can always proc it with rend should you notice it missing.

On Solarian, I don't really care about the damage on the adds, it's the mostly damage done to her that's important. I'm not familiar with the alot of the fights mentioned, but even when you have multiple targets, usually, the melee/physical DPS will all be on the same target anyway.