Putting an elemental shaman in a melee group is about as bad for group synergy as putting a shadow priest in a melee group. If your raid isn't going to have your only shaman spec earth shield, it would benefit the raid more to have that shaman spec enhancement.
Not quite, we made the point earlier than WF for an arms warrior with other melee will exceed the damage of an ele shaman in a caster group laying WoA and ToW. Its certainly not optimal, as it would be better to have a resto/enh shaman in that melee group, but theres certainly tons of synergy.
Not quite, we made the point earlier than WF for an arms warrior with other melee will exceed the damage of an ele shaman in a caster group laying WoA and ToW. Its certainly not optimal, as it would be better to have a resto/enh shaman in that melee group, but theres certainly tons of synergy.
I think that was his point, though - he's saying that a shaman goes best with a melee dps group, elemental or otherwise but that the shaman's personal and group contribution will be much greater if he's enh
Putting an elemental shaman in a melee group is about as bad for group synergy as putting a shadow priest in a melee group. If your raid isn't going to have your only shaman spec earth shield, it would benefit the raid more to have that shaman spec enhancement.
Your analogy is flawed, a elemental shaman can still drop WF and SoE totem, searing totem does more damage than ToW which is pretty hilarious (and also shows how awesome searing totem is), the only problem would be the elemental shaman would not have a shadow priest so could have mana problems.
Going enhancement of course would provide melee with better buffs though so if your shamans are pretty limited it is best they are enhance if you want them as a DPS class.
The benefactors bar has no threads as such, just multiple discussions in multiple threads. If you find a thread which is completely on topic then something is wrong
Shaman in caster group is buffing 5 people with 3 buffs. (4 if your ally)
Shaman in melle group is buffing 4 people with 2 buffs, these people are also losing 5% crit and self heal from LOTP. The druid who missed out on that group is now missing battleshout also.
Shaman loses his own group synergy lowering his damage a lot. Shadow priest restores less mana to his group without the shaman also.
Counting the number of buffs isn't exactly a useful metric. Some buffs (e.g. Windfury) are better than others (e.g. Mana Spring totem).
Also...where do you get that the Feral is being removed from the melee group to make room for the Shaman? People seem pretty happy with a 1 War, 2 Rog, 1 Dru, 1 Sha setup.
We're sometimes faced with that problem - how to deal with a DPS group that would ideally consist of 6 members - 2 warriors, 2 rogues, a druid and a shaman. What we've found the best solution to be is to put the druid in with the hunters, give them a resto shaman with GoA, and leave the enhance shaman putting down windfury for the melee. This seems to be the best way to keep as many people as happy as possible.
Rogue x3, Warrior x1 and Shamanx1 (regardless of spec) has the biggest dps yield with windfury totem.
Since hunters are a bit broken on the mana level we tend to make a huntergroups with 3 hunters a shadowpriest and a feral druid.
In the end it all boils down to making 5 good groups and use the Synergy that you can have.
Totem of Wrath/Wrath of air is a nice totem to have in your caster group but windfury simply does more damage in a melee group.
Typically what we do with a feral druid is give him to the hunters. He gets buffed with them and they in turn help him out (BM/MM) typically there will be a filler lock in that group or maybe healer depending on what we're doing but they still have decent synergy between buffs, and any other dps in the group will still benefit from the BM hunter.
We usually run 3+ rogues due to guild composition so in that regard it will be fury/rogue/rogue/rogue/sham-resto for our typical melee dps group.
Another advantage to have the shaman in the melee group is that it doesn't need to be enhancement specced per se, it can just heal and still have wf and soe, wich increase melee dps a lot even unimproved. Or am I wrong here? Id guess that a healing shaman will increase the caster dps even less.
searing totem does more damage than ToW which is pretty hilarious (and also shows how awesome searing totem is)
Wait, your telling me a single searing totem from an ele shaman is more of a dps increase to the raid than a ToW with 3 mages and a spriest in the group?
Guess i will have to go read through the elemental shaman threads a bit more for the math on this one. its one of the biggest arguments i get from casters, they want a ToW.
Wait, your telling me a single searing totem from an ele shaman is more of a dps increase to the raid than a ToW with 3 mages and a spriest in the group?
Guess i will have to go read through the elemental shaman threads a bit more for the math on this one. its one of the biggest arguments i get from casters, they want a ToW.
I think he meant that it'd be more DPS if no one else is getting the DPS boost, although I could be wrong.
I think he meant that it'd be more DPS if no one else is getting the DPS boost, although I could be wrong.
I also recall the math working out in ToW's favor every time this hyperbolic claim gets made, but I'll let someone with an active Shaman do the rehash here instead of botching it myself.
Keep in mind that Searing Totem doesn't benefit from your spell hit gear, so you'll see significantly less return on a boss mob than you would on a Blasted Lands servant.
As I recall, the math on ToW vs searing totem was based on a lv60 ele shaman in a group with four lv60 fire mages. It doesn't even remotely hold up at lv70.
Another “it depends” factor to remember is the fight itself. For fights where melee dps do a lot of damage compared to casters (typically low armor bosses) the shaman is going to be a lot more useful in the melee group than in the caster group. And obviously the opposite for caster friendly fights.
In fact it wouldn’t surprise me if this is a rather bigger factor than your raid makeup.
We like to put the enh shaman purely with melee for obvious reasons. This would be a feral/dps war/rogx2 group. The feral gets 10% ap, which is a nice gain even if windfury doesn't help.
A secondary consideration is using tranquil air totem at the start. Rogues may not have aggro issues, but fury warriors and dps shamans can. Tranquil air and BoS help the tank off to a nice aggro lead before the switch to windfury.
In general, though, we have 2 shaman in the group for the caster and melee group. Our mages are dealing with mana issues all the time (especially if they are arcane specced) so heroism is a double edged sword (like arcane power). More spells/dps, more mana/second used.
With Arms warriors, on Gruul, I got some good results (well by eyeballing Omen) with opening w/ Tranquil Air, and dropping WF after the first shatter. The reason is that, while usually everything was fine, using Tranquil Air helped built a larger threat delta between my melee team and the two tanks. It may have done nothing more than make Omen look less ominous. YMMV.
With Arms warriors, on Gruul, I got some good results (well by eyeballing Omen) with opening w/ Tranquil Air, and dropping WF after the first shatter. The reason is that, while usually everything was fine, using Tranquil Air helped built a larger threat delta between my melee team and the two tanks. It may have done nothing more than make Omen look less ominous. YMMV.
I do the same thing myself . Tranq for the first ~min, soon as he shatters and we rush back in, WF + Bloodlust. Helps the rogues save vanish for later so we don't catch back up on threat, helps the warriors have a bigger buffer to play with.
On the topic of Bloodlust, I agree that classes like Mages who just cast 30% faster will do roughly 30% more dmg (add in a constant lag factor, so maybe a bit less than 30), and that melee will do ~25% more dmg. Personally with ~65% white damage, Bloodlust is a straight 20% boost just on white damage, then add in the extra combat potency, dragonspine, mongoose, etc.. its roughly a 25% boost overall.
Theres one thing that I haven't seen mentioned though. When a mage does 30% more dmg in bloodlust, he used 30% more mana. Mana that could of been spent later. Melee classes are just straight doing more damage. So unless its a fight where the caster doesn't have to think about mana, bloodlust is OVERALL (over the course of the fight) likely best spent on the melee.
Also note, haste effects multiply each other. 30% from SnD, 30% from bloodlust, ~35% from DST.. that bloodlust haste really really helps when you remember it multiplies our other hastes.
Another thing everyone else has forgotten: Proccs with a fixed amount of time
Melees have many more proccs that last a fixed amount of time and increase their damage by a lot and having these procc more often will increase their total uptime and so it will also increase the total white damage by more than 30%
For example I as a Fury Warrior have:
- Mongoose on Main-hand (Around 5% more total damage while active)
- Mongoose on Off-hand (Around 5% more total damage while active)
- Dragonspine Trophy (Around 25% more total damage while active)
- Tsunami Talisman (Around 7% more total damage while active)
- Dragonstrike (Around 15% more total damage while active)
And if I had a compareable Headpiece with a Meta Socket:
- Haste Metasocket (Around 15% more total damage while active)
Theres one thing that I haven't seen mentioned though. When a mage does 30% more dmg in bloodlust, he used 30% more mana. Mana that could of been spent later. Melee classes are just straight doing more damage. So unless its a fight where the caster doesn't have to think about mana, bloodlust is OVERALL (over the course of the fight) likely best spent on the melee.
With a shadowpriest, mages are unlikely to run OOM (unless they choose to spam AB), so bloodlust will be a full 30% increase. And if you spam AB, spending excess mana with Bloodlust on your normal 3*AB/6.5secX cycle is more efficient than burning it with AB spam. Would be interested in exact numbers there, actually
Bloodlust in an AE group for Kael'thas weapons in P2 also sped up things a lot for us.
On Kaz'rogal (periodic mana drain), we rotate our shaman through the melee group to chain Bloodlust, since mana is the limiting factor for casters there.
In an average fight, I don't think it's worth swapping. It will make a difference in special situations though.
What? 30% haste on melee, ranged and spells means that melee will do roughly 30% more white damage during those 40 secs, while casters will cast 30% more spells which means all of their damage goes up by around 30% (DoTers don't gain as much even though the GCD is lowered too, but it's close to it with time for more direct damage). Warriors are a small exception in that they get more rage, which increases our DPS a bit more above 20% when we can only dump it in Heroic Strike, the only really noticable difference is when used in Execute range for a much more frequent rage inflow.
I don't disagree on any other point though, WF in a melee group with at least one Warrior, Fury or Arms, in it is very valuable.
This may have been pointed out, or maybe not, but bloodlust/heroism also reduce GCD by 30%.
Edit: in case my point was unclear this means more specials (although it really only applies to a warrior in execute range)
Another thing everyone else has forgotten: Proccs with a fixed amount of time
Melees have many more proccs that last a fixed amount of time and increase their damage by a lot and having these procc more often will increase their total uptime and so it will also increase the total white damage by more than 30%
I have a concern that some of the procs you listed aren't common procs with set PPM (anyway is PPM improved by haste?), but instead have plain proc chance with internal cooldown meaning that they are unlikely to get 30% increased uptime (as you assume) to make a difference.
With a shadowpriest, mages are unlikely to run OOM (unless they choose to spam AB), so bloodlust will be a full 30% increase. And if you spam AB, spending excess mana with Bloodlust on your normal 3*AB/6.5secX cycle is more efficient than burning it with AB spam. Would be interested in exact numbers there, actually
Bloodlust in an AE group for Kael'thas weapons in P2 also sped up things a lot for us.
On Kaz'rogal (periodic mana drain), we rotate our shaman through the melee group to chain Bloodlust, since mana is the limiting factor for casters there.
In an average fight, I don't think it's worth swapping. It will make a difference in special situations though.
Also fights like teron, and sharaz (and to some extent bloodboil). Low AC mobs are just too yummy.
With Arms warriors, on Gruul, I got some good results (well by eyeballing Omen) with opening w/ Tranquil Air, and dropping WF after the first shatter. The reason is that, while usually everything was fine, using Tranquil Air helped built a larger threat delta between my melee team and the two tanks. It may have done nothing more than make Omen look less ominous. YMMV.
Probably not telling you anything you don't realize, but you can drop Windfury, then immediately drop tranq... repeat again 10 seconds later, when the WF weapon buff fades. It's commonly referred to as "twisting".
I have a concern that some of the procs you listed aren't common procs with set PPM (anyway is PPM improved by haste?), but instead have plain proc chance with internal cooldown meaning that they are unlikely to get 30% increased uptime (as you assume) to make a difference.
Mongoose, dragonmaw and DST dont have an internal cooldown. Not sure about the talisman, I think it does.
PPM is calculated on base weapon speed and thus improved by haste.
This may have been pointed out, or maybe not, but bloodlust/heroism also reduce GCD by 30%.
Edit: in case my point was unclear this means more specials (although it really only applies to a warrior in execute range)
I have seen this posted multiple times, in multiple threads. How sure are we about this? I can't imagine that I'm the only one who has gotten a "Cannot cast this spell" message when attempting to cast LB after CL with Heroism up.
And since I'm posting I might as well ask: if I'm in group with prot warrior, feral druid, rogue, XXX, me - does it matter what that other class is or should I be throwing down GoA regardless? (I know I can probably find this in another threads about GoA vs WF, but I haven't found the search function yet.)
08/07/07, 4:20 AM
. Tranq for the first ~min, soon as he shatters and we rush back in, WF + Bloodlust. Helps the rogues save vanish for later so we don't catch back up on threat, helps the warriors have a bigger buffer to play with.
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