draghkar

I see your point, now see my point (that can be wrong ofc).

Your: WF has 20% chance to proc when not in the 3 sec CD
Mine: WF has 20% chance to proc at each swing but if less than 3 sec are last from last proc then you don't get it.

 

Kagekami

I thought a bit about this. The reason that you want slow weapons is that slow weapons hit harder with windfury.

But this 0.1 mainhand would not waste a lot of windfury time off cd. Seeing as as soon as WF is off the cd, with a fast hitting weapon you will proc a new wf faster.

This is why 2.9 weapons aren't that good. If you Proc wf, you'll "waste" one swing with wf on cd, meaning the first possible new wf will be at 2*2.9s = 5.8s. (Not dualwielding/dualwield same-speed weaps.)

Equally, if you only have flurry for haste, couldn't your mainhand be as fast as 2.2 speed as long as it keeps a high dps, as this will ensure tight timing close after WF cd cools down?

2.2 * 0.7 = 1.54

(This is from a "without impeding dps greatly" viewpoint)

This would tie in with the DPS drop people see when hasting their mainhand past 1.5, and capitalise on always staying in the WF cd "Sweet spot" for your mainhand. My only concern is how the offhand will affect this, and I can't theorycraft too well right now, being at work and all.

 

Kombinat

I'm not very smart. I freely admit to my normal level of intelligence. That said, I know enough about myself to know when to ask for help. Smarter people than me have done the math on WF and no matter how they do it, it comes out the same.

You have a 20% chance to proc WF when not in the 3 second cooldown. That 3 second cooldown skews the actual proc rate. You're taking the 20% as gospel, when it's just not.

 

Bink

Both ways of saying it work. And they both mean the same thing: you have no chance of getting a WF for those swings.

If you have a 0% chance to proc or have a 20% chance to proc but it will be prevented... what does the terminology matter? You can't proc. If you can't proc, then that swing doesn't count to the 1 in 5 average you are doing.

 

◊ castille

dragkhar, just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it is. WF cannot proc for 3 seconds after the previous windfury. Attacks don't 'queue' up so that as soon as you get out of the 3s cooldown, you immediately get another. That's why people save stormstrike for right as WF ends, because it causes more chances right at the 3s mark to try and get more procs. This is why your above statement of 'not using stormstrike' is kinda bunk. We creatively use game mechanics, and slow weapons, to maximize the AP contribution of WF weapon. Fast weapons were sexy when you could quad proc and had just about 0 internal cooldown. Those days don't exist anymore, and fast weapons just plain suck. They suck up WF cooldowns that don't hit as hard. So, when you're swinging some 1.4 speed weapon that's WF critting for.. 400, the guy next to you, using 2 2.6 speed weapons with the same DPS is critting for near 1000 or more. These differences add up, because every 3 seconds, he's getting more out of WF than you are.

And if I'm wrong, I'm sure Nite is going to kill me, but I'm reasonably sure that my brief stint as an enhancement shaman taught me this, at least

23:40:55> [Illidan Stormrage's] [Shear] was blocked by [Castille].
^ Yes, this actually happened. Yes, Castille is a shaman.

 

Bink

It really is just the joy of statistics messing with you. Take a look at it like this:

4 speed weapon:
Swing1 (1 in 5 chance)
Swing2 (1 in 5 chance)
Swing3 (1 in 5 chance)
Swing4 (1 in 5 chance)
Swing5 (1 in 5 chance) (proc)
Swing6 (1 in 5 chance)
Swing7 (1 in 5 chance)
Swing8 (1 in 5 chance)
Swing9 (1 in 5 chance)
Swing10 (1 in 5 chance) (proc)
Swing11 (1 in 5 chance)

1.5 speed weapon:
Swing1 (1 in 5 chance)
Swing2 (1 in 5 chance)
Swing3 (1 in 5 chance)
Swing4 (1 in 5 chance)
Swing5 (1 in 5 chance) (proc)
Swing6 (NO chance)
Swing7 (NO chance)
Swing8 (1 in 5 chance)
Swing9 (1 in 5 chance)
Swing10 (1 in 5 chance)
Swing12 (1 in 5 chance) (proc)
Swing13 (NO chance)
Swing14 (NO chance)
Swing15 (1 in 5 chance)


This really is oversimplifying it, but it might help you see why the fomula has to account for weapon speed as well.

 

Kagekami

The terminology matters, as in draghkar's example you would get loads more wf procs overall. His saying is that there has to be a wf proc in 5 swings, even if some are inside the WF cd.

Say 4 swings are inside wf cd, 5th outside. (theoretical 0.75 weapon speed.)

With draghkar's theory this 5th swing would always proc wf. In reality, it is not so. At least not as far as I know.

(Didn't dare use AFAIK, don't know what abbreviations and TLAs that are accepted yet.)

 

draghkar

Those are the graph simulating 1milion seconds fight, considering WF CD




as you can see (without consider crit) you have 2 steps: 1.5 seconds speed, 3.0 seconds speed, after 3 seconds you total average damage is the same. Increasing the crit % you have another step at aroung 4.3 secs. After that nothing changes. See also this immage (33% crit graph zoomed) it shows that 1.7 speed is even better than 2.0 speed, then you gain again at 2.2 secs ( having better damage that 1.7 ).



EDIT: Both images are wrong due to some glitch on the simulator, more specificaly the second graph was affected by a too long resolution timer, 0.1 second instead of 15 ms.

 

Malan

I've got to admit, this is entertaining.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

draghkar

I don't want something true, I'm just showing what my simulations are showing, I like that most of you are trying to explain me where my model is wrong but till now I still see it correct. As soon as the code is in good shape (WF at the moment is hard coded in the weapon for example and so I can not add to a weapon a generic enchant), I will put it in google code.

 

draghkar

Were is written that the dices are thrown only when not in CD? You can have same effect with:
Dices are thrown at each swing but if in CD the WF doesn't proc.

This is what the simulator shows in his combat log in case of 2.3 speed

2.3 HIT
4.6 HIT
6.9 HIT
6.9 FLURRYON
6.9 CRIT
8.5 HIT
10.1 HIT
10.1 WF
10.1 WF
11.7 FLURRYOFF
11.7 HIT
11.7 FLURRYON
11.7 CRIT
13.3 HIT
14.9 HIT
16.5 FLURRYOFF
16.5 HIT
16.5 WF
16.5 WF
16.5 FLURRYON
16.5 CRIT
18.1 HIT
19.7 HIT
21.3 FLURRYOFF
21.3 HIT
21.3 FLURRYON
21.3 CRIT
22.9 HIT
24.5 HIT
26.1 FLURRYOFF
26.1 HIT
28.4 HIT
28.4 WF
28.4 WF
30.7 HIT
33 HIT
33 FLURRYON
33 CRIT
34.6 HIT
34.6 WF
34.6 FLURRYON
....

 

• Juice

I recommend you take your simulated performance and then attempt to repeat that performance in game with equivalent gear, weapons, etc. That's what Disquette (I'm leaving out others due to poor memory, sorry) and company did with their simulators. I think Disquette, et al., found their simulators to be within 5-10% of actual. That's a pretty good indicator that they are close.

 

Bink

Simulation:
I roll a 100 sided dice, and I get 18. Woohoo, that would be a proc! Oh wait, I'm in cooldown. Darn, no proc.

Hmm.. Now lets think about that. If I can roll every number on this dice, but I can't proc, wouldn't that mean I have no chance to proc? If I have absolutely no chance to proc on this swing, doesn't that mean I have 0% chance to proc?

If I have 0% chance to proc on this swing, then basing an equation on the idea that EVERY swing has a 20% chance to proc would be flawed.

Now, to be more helpful, for the non-dual wielding, no flurry having, not going to stormstrike shammie, here's the formula:

Damage(TimeInSeconds)=WeaponDamageRange*(TimeInSeconds/WeaponSpeed)+TimeInSeconds/(5+MAX(0, 3-WeaponSpeed)*(WeaponDamageRange*2+WindFuryBonusDamage*WeaponSpeed*2)

 

david0925

This is like one of those forum QQ posts saying X item should drop in Y runs because he did 1/Y dungeon runs, statstics doesn't work like that. When you take statistically like that, things get messy.

You need to simulate individual hits to have 20% proc rate, and if the most recently active proc and the next proc are within 3 seconds, ignore the proc. To space out every proc evenly means you can completely skip the 3 second rule, which is a pretty bad way to ignore mechanics. Especially right now, the concern is with Dual Wield, when both weapons are active with flurry (most of the time, if not all), it is quite possible that consecutive windfury proc, but are not triggered due to 3 second internal cooldown.

This entire graph is taking statistics in a biased interpretation. If you cannot accept that then there really is no point for this discussion to go on

 

heel

Absolutely not. The OP isn't stupid - he's just viewing the problem from a different angle. Any discrepancy in results will undoubtably be cleared up as his methodology is nitpicked further. He's probably wrong, but hey, he might have stumbled onto an aspect of the problem that has been ignored thusfar. In any case, like I said, he's not stupid, and he and everyone else will doubtless come to perfect agreement within a few days. No reason to remove this thread.

 

draghkar

To be even more help full I believe that with WeaponDamageRange you mean WeapongSpeed * WeaponDPS, and also I believe second part of the formula is wrong, in case of WeaponSpeed > 3 then WF part is nullified.

What you tried to write is:

Damage(Y secs)= speed*dps*(Y/speed) + Y/(speed*5)*(speed*dps*2+WindFuryBonusDamage*speed*2) =
dps*Y+ Y/5*(dps*2+WindFuryBonusDamage*2)

and as you can see speed doesn't matter, of course this is valid for speed > 0.6 (othewise you have to consider WF CD as well.

 

Bink

Max(0, 3-WeaponSpeed) is how you take into account when the weapon is faster than 3 seconds. It means take the largest number of 0 or 3-WeaponSpeed.

 

Bink

if you want me to write it that way then...

Damage(Y secs)= dps*Y+ Y/(5 + Max(0, 3-WeaponSpeed)*(dps*2+WindFuryBonusDamage*2)

 

Malan

No he's definitely wrong, and his 'model' is about as good as I could make with an Excel spreadsheet - which is to say, pretty bad. I'm terrible at math and even I can look at this and just see that its wrong.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

◊ Lactose

Let's say you have a weapon that, after a Windfury proc, is able to land 4 swings within 3 seconds.
Is your belief, dragkhar, that swing #5 will proc Windfury?

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

Lewl

It would make for a poor Class Mechanics forum if the challenging of current information accompanied by sensible debate was not allowed.

I think some clarification is in order. Are you calculating Windfury procs as each swing has a 20% chance to proc or as 1 in every 5 swings is a Windfury proc? If you are using the 1 in 5 swings is a Windfury proc, are you including the swings inside the 3 second cooldown in your 5 swing tally?

Honestly, I think posting your source code would help a lot.

 

◊ Maniq

If only there was a thread in which the collected works of enhancement shaman knowledge was contained.

IF ONLY!

 

Dreak

The problem as I'm seeing it, is that its really a combination of the fact that the faster weapon would be "wasting" WF procs, and that these procs would be lower damage than if you had a slower weapon.

For simplicity take a 1.5 speed weapon and a 3.0 speed weapon, each of which are the same overall dps. This means that on average the 3.0 speed weapon will hit twice as hard as the 1.5 speed weapon. Because of this, the 1.5 speed weapon eats WF procs doing less damage than would the 3.0 speed. The problem is further compounded if you use 1 fast weapon and 1 slow weapon, as the fast weapon will eat the bigger damage procs from the slow weapon.

 

Kagekami

This what was I was thinking about, only I'm not a native english speaker, so my thoughts might not present themselves too well in writing.

Since there are no 3.0 onehanders that are feasible for use (are there any at all?), I was thinking that tailoring your mainhand as closely as possible to the chances of WF procs might be beneficial. That is, without any haste rating as close to 2.2 speed while still keeping dps a priority.

Offhand is best to keep as slow as possible, since the closer we get to 2.9, the better. 2.9 would probably be the best offhand speed, since it allows for most "wf dodging".

This might all be moot, and the slight offset in WF timing more than well be made up for by the harder hits. I'm interested however in whether it's off by far, or not that bad.

(Edit: I realise that this would probably work the best the other way around. Get the best onehander, and then tailor your haste gear to bring it down as close to 1.5 speed as possible, which is already what has been concluded in the huge theorycraft thread. (Yes, I read it all.) I'll experiment with it on my alt shammie while levelling up, since it'll give me a smooth MH windfury sweet spot. Please disregard my ramblings.)

 

• Juice

I didn't call the OP stupid. This topic is covered, extensively, in another thread. You're aware of our forum rules aren't you? Good ideas (this isn't one) don't get their own threads just because they're good ideas. They are rolled up for some sense of order in other threads of common topics. There are pages and pages of simulation discussion in another mega thread - which is where this discussion belongs - and that's why this thread needs to go away.

Also, the OP is wrong (not stupid).