This is misleading. Of those 8 specials you would have only (statistically) procd windfury on 20% prior to the patch anyways. You make it sound like you're losing a windfury off every single hit that you make in that 14 seconds. Of the 8 special attacks you should have expected a windfury from 1.6 of the eligible (non miss/dodge/parry) attacks.
Previously you had 7,6 autohits in 14 seconds, now it's 6 autohits. That's 21% less autohits and rage. Don't underestimate that.
This is misleading. Of those 8 specials you would have only (statistically) procd windfury on 20% prior to the patch anyways. You make it sound like you're losing a windfury off every single hit that you make in that 14 seconds. Of the 8 special attacks you should have expected a windfury from 1.6 of the eligible (non miss/dodge/parry) attacks.
So we lose on average 1.6 1100+ damage white hits every 14 seconds, barring dodges (you have capped hit, and attacking from behind).
So at least a 100 dps loss, not even accounting for the lack of rage provided by said attack. It is a huge loss in dps, no matter what way you look at it.
I agree its big for Arms warriors since most of your damage is not coming for white hits. I'm not saying its not, I was just pointing out that your statement was somewhat misleading as to expectations.
I think people are vastly exaggerating the effect of this change.
Let me explain....
So what's the standard ratio of white attacks to yellow attacks? 2 white for every yellow? At worst 1 white for every yellow.
Now, for this change (eliminating yellow procs) to cause a 10% reduction of damage:
2 white / 1 yellow: You are saying WF extra white attacks are directly responsible for 30% of all your damage output. Because you are losing 1/3 of your windfury procs and losing 10% of your damage.
1 white / 1 yellow: 20% of your total damage output.
If that's the case, Blizzard really needed to nerf this, as one simple totem is increasing 4 other people's dps by at least 25%.
Let's stop the exaggeration and get back to real numbers. In many ways, this discussion is beginning to sound like WoW General where people blurt out unsubstantiated "facts".
I see that you posted 1 minute after me, but look at the numbers in my post. They are "real numbers" and show that for arms warriors it's 2 yellows for every 1 white hit, and also you are losing a 2h windfury attack, versus a main hand one.
I don't raid the extreme endgame but I do not see this as a necessary nerf to the endgame melee. There might be more static fights in hyjal, black temple - but before that there doesn't seem to be any stand still and hit till the boss drops. I have enough trouble keeping up with casters due to aggro and melee unfriendly encounters.
If this the solution to WF in arena being overpowered, then maybe you should think about the cons of a WF totem - especially a totem with 5 hp.
Sorry if this sounded like a crying post - but from what I read from these other warrior posts - two handed DPS has been severely limited and we will be forced to go back to old school DW Fury as the only option of dpsing in raids. Which is very rough for people outside raids where gear doesn't seem to make the build viable.
So essentially MS/Slam warriors lose 8 chances to proc windfury every 14~ seconds. This coupled with the fact that any dodge/glance on our white hits will destroy the rotation is a huge nerf to arms warriors, much moreso than any other class/spec.
Exactly. It's got to be annoying for rogues and worse for DW warriors, but 2h warriors suffered a much worse blow with this nerf.
I wonder, would we be more inline with the other melees if slam could still proc WF?
Morogrim, FLK, VR, Gruul, Magtheridon, Vashj in Phase 1/3 and arguably Phase 2, Lurker, Prince Malchezar... etc.
I'd like to say that with gruul's wicked working hurtful/hateful strikes I seem to die even if my threat is amazing. The casters already have the benefit of going near/over the tanks slightly without getting oneshotted in the face.
VR has almost constant arcane damage being thrown in your face, is immune to bleeds and yet you still get an occasional arcane orb in your back when playing, cause being melee just wasn't hard enough.
Magtheridon is fairly static I'll give you that. I'm still progressing in TK and haven't started SSC yet, so that might come soon. Might just be the bosses we've approached that has been more fitting for the full caster raid.
They said al'ar was pretty melee friendly, even though it has adds that do 8k damage when they die(Yes yes, I'm running away now!), and a napalm on the ramps =)
Anyhow, I do hope at least some of this change might be reworked to affect hamstring, which I personally don't use. It's an abuse when you take use of a skill that clearly wasn't meant to be used like a windfury proc accelerator.
Ah yeah, enfeeble and shadow nova on the prince - but that's casual content now anyhow - don't really care much about it.
Morogrim, FLK, VR, Gruul, Magtheridon, Vashj in Phase 1/3 and arguably Phase 2, Lurker, Prince Malchezar... etc.
Morogrim - Murlocks.
VR - Depends, it's only a stand and dps if your guild puts some healers on the melee, otherwise you gotta avoid pounding.
Gruul - Are you kidding? With ground sla, you're constantly away from the boss. Not to mention melee are capped by the OT's threat while casters only by the MT. Melee also eats hatefulls if the OT isn't in range for some reason.
Magtheridon - Bouncy and cube clicking.
Lurker - Spout and adds.
Prince - Shadow nova.
Morogrim - Melee can easily stay on the boss full time, I know ours do
VR - Even if you have to run in and out, if you are doing it properly, it is literally one step back and you don't get hit unless your ranged are bad
Gruul - Intercept? lol. If your OT isnt in range then he needs to fix his stuff
Magtheridon - bouncy i'll give you that, but melee shouldn't be on cubes, unless they are in tanking gear and can't do much else.
Lurker - Spout is a benefit for warriors. You run under the water and take damage = rage. If it isnt enough rage for you, pop zerker rage under the water. When you're on adds, you still do damage and its not like the ranged have a real advantage here
Fathom Lord is also another pretty good fight for melee if you don't have to tank the hunter add
Morogrim - Murlocks.
VR - Depends, it's only a stand and dps if your guild puts some healers on the melee, otherwise you gotta avoid pounding.
Gruul - Are you kidding? With ground sla, you're constantly away from the boss. Not to mention melee are capped by the OT's threat while casters only by the MT. Melee also eats hatefulls if the OT isn't in range for some reason.
Magtheridon - Bouncy and cube clicking.
Lurker - Spout and adds.
Prince - Shadow nova.
This is highly offtopic (and therefore I apologize in advance), but these sound more like issues with your particular strategy than with the encounters themselves. All of those encounters are "stand and DPS" fights for me, personally, with around 60-80% time on target (depending on the specific fight).
With respect to the actual change, while it is fairly devastating to certain types of warriors, as identified several times in the thread, I can't say I'm surprised about it. Blizzard has a history of putting the nerf bat to any single ability that is deemed to be too powerful, and Windfury Totem was (and maybe still is?) one of the single biggest raid DPS buffs in the game, while only affecting four members of the raid.
Morogrim - Murlocks.
VR - Depends, it's only a stand and dps if your guild puts some healers on the melee, otherwise you gotta avoid pounding.
Gruul - Are you kidding? With ground sla, you're constantly away from the boss. Not to mention melee are capped by the OT's threat while casters only by the MT. Melee also eats hatefulls if the OT isn't in range for some reason.
Magtheridon - Bouncy and cube clicking.
Lurker - Spout and adds.
Prince - Shadow nova.
Yet on every single one of those fights, melee still top the damage meters, both pre and post patch. It is a huge nerf, to MS warriors especially, but the only really melee unfriendly fights are Azgalor (rain of fire is fun) and Supremus (hateful strikes are fun).
Morogrim - Melee can easily stay on the boss full time, I know ours do
VR - Even if you have to run in and out, if you are doing it properly, it is literally one step back and you don't get hit unless your ranged are bad
Gruul - Intercept? lol. If your OT isnt in range then he needs to fix his stuff
Magtheridon - bouncy i'll give you that, but melee shouldn't be on cubes, unless they are in tanking gear and can't do much else.
Lurker - Spout is a benefit for warriors. You run under the water and take damage = rage. If it isnt enough rage for you, pop zerker rage under the water. When you're on adds, you still do damage and its not like the ranged have a real advantage here
VR - If you're at max meless range like that you risk getting hit by orb aoe too.
Gruul - Of course you intercept back in, but that doesn't affect the main loss of dps time, which is flying about and waiting for shatter to proc before you go back in. The effect is less on ranged due to positioning, DoTs and the ract they they're ranged.
Lurker - The scalding water DoT doesn't give rage. I assume damage from the fish does, but they do too much damage to stay in the water and dps.
Anyway, I'm not saying these fights are terrible for melee, they're just a bit more than stand and dps.
Quixotic: Again, I wasn't saying the fights are melee unfriendly, just that there's more than standing there dpsing going on. And in my experiance our locks, mages, hunters, rogues and dps warriors fight for 1st place, there's no melee domination.
How did windfury work with instant attacks in the first place?
I was under the impression that the extra attack I got reset my swing timer. So, the windfury attack from an instant between two swings would only be "half an attack" because you alraedy waited some time between your previous swing and the instant that procced the windfury atttack.
If it worked that way, windfury procs from instant attacks were only 1/2-2/3 as good as windfury attacks from regular swings.
Procs from slam were equal to procs from swings since it reset the swing timer anyway, but how was it with instants? Did the windfury proc reset the swing timer?
It doesn't matter anymore, but I'm still curious how it was :o
As a personal note to infinite caster feedback loops:
Several classes (shadow priests, elemental shaman, balance druids, mages, hunters) currently depend on "chainpotting + shadowpriest" (+ innervates on shadow priests) for mana longvity. I really hope that the "buff of spirit" in WotLK will come with a overall revamp of the mana regeneration mechanics.
How did windfury work with instant attacks in the first place?
I was under the impression that the extra attack I got reset my swing timer. So, the windfury attack from an instant between two swings would only be "half an attack" because you alraedy waited some time between your previous swing and the instant that procced the windfury atttack.
If it worked that way, windfury procs from instant attacks were only 1/2-2/3 as good as windfury attacks from regular swings.
That was sword spec, and they fixed it several months ago. Also, and this was a kind of big thing, Windfury attacks could actuate procs (and, in the case of 33/28 or full Fury, Flurry if it crit).
All in all, it added a full 20% to the PPM of any given proc, which was especially big in the case of slow 1-handed weapons and big two-handed weapons.
Old school GM longsword: 2.9 speed. Crusader 1PPM.
4.8% proc-chance for Crusader on any individual swing.
Blood Moon: 3.7 speed, Crusader 1PPM.
6.3% proc-chance for Crusader on any individual swing.
Shard of Azzinoth: 1.9 speed, Crusader 1PPM
3.1% proc-chance for Crusader on any individual swing.
Considering instant attacks:
GM longsword, 15+ per minute given combat potency, so 3 additional chances to proc Crusader.
Bloodmoon on MS warrior: MS + Slam in any given 9 second period, with maybe a hamstring thrown in for good luck (conservative number of instants, but I can't get flat answers on Rage math from people who know). So that's 20 instants per minute, or 4 extra chances to proc crusader.
Dagger: 2+ extra chances to proc Crusader at 10 specials per minute.
So, as we can see obviously from both ends, the effect of windfury on procs for Warriors is highest from both fronts.
6.3% proc-chance, the chance that none of the 4 special-attack windfury attacks per minute will proc the enchant .937 ^ 4.
That comes out to a 23% chance for an extra uptime from windfury alone.
Swords as Rogue: We'll stay at 3 extra attacks per minute, ignoring combat potency.
4.8% proc-chance, 0.952^3 or 14% chance to proc the enchant (or other 1PPM proc) from special-hit windfury alone in a given minute.
Daggers: 3.1% proc-chance, or 0.969^2, or 6.2% chance for the special windfury attacks to proc in a given minute.
Because of this, things like Dragonspine Trophy uptime between specs with very similar white damage, and not hugely different yellow damage, vary greatly, and given how powerful many of them are, special attack windfuries would be more than worth it even if it did reset the swing timer.
Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.
hamstring and other instants were definitely proccing WF in arena just now. I'm gonna do some outdoor testing to see if it was just an arena-only thing
edit: definitely not proccing off instas outside. I don't think I was mistaken, though; I definitely had hamstring proc it when I was nowhere near another autoattack swing
maybe Blizzard just wanted to nerf arms' amazing PvE raid dps while preserving our lackluster arena performance :I
This change will be about a 15%+ dps loss for a 33/28 PvE arms warrior. Already there are 1-2 times a fight in which you will get chain dodged on two white hits in a row, and will have to change your cycle slightly, but now with no WF on slam/ms/ww/hs, I have 4 auto attacks every 13.9 seconds in the DPS rotation with my 3.7 speed Soul Cleaver with haste items to make it 3.4 speed.
0.0 Auto Attack
0.5 Slam
1.0 Mortal Strike
3.9 Auto Attack
4.4 Slam
4.9 Whirlwind
7.8 Auto Attack
8.3 Slam
8.8 Mortal Strike
11.7 Auto Attack
12.5 Slam
13.0 Hamstring
13.9 Auto Attack
So essentially MS/Slam warriors lose 8 chances to proc windfury every 14~ seconds. This coupled with the fact that any dodge/glance on our white hits will destroy the rotation is a huge nerf to arms warriors, much moreso than any other class/spec.
Now look, here's what I'm getting at...
Taking tooltip totals not counting improved talent that may raise the damage
We have old days:
4 White attacks (straight damage)
4 Slam attacks (damage +140)
2 Mortal Strikes (damage +210)
1 Hamstring (20% damage)
1 Whirlwind (damage +300)
2.4 Windfury attacks (damage + a little like 40)
vs now
4 White attacks
4 Slam attacks
2 Mortal Strikes
1 Hamstring
1 Whirlwind
0.8 Windfury attacks
Assuming all that can proc trinkets, etc., you lose 11.1% of your procs.
We have 13.6 times normal weapon damage + 1380
of which you lose 1.6 times normal damage +64
Again, this isn't 15% of your damage as quoted. The extra damage from all the specials really adds up and is quite sizable compared to the white attacks.
Now, yes, you lose some rage but this is proportional to the attacks lost. I really don't see how this loss of 1.6 white attacks from 14.4 total attacks (many of which are specials) accounts for a 15% loss in total damage.
I agree, this is much more sizable a loss for 2H Arms Warriors, maybe in your case will cost you 8% of your damage which is sizable. (And I had not seen your post yet when I posted). But in this thread we've had other classes claiming 10% nerfs as well and they have a much smaller yellow attack to white attack ratio.
Now, yes, you lose some rage but this is proportional to the attacks lost. I really don't see how this loss of 1.6 white attacks from 14.4 total attacks (many of which are specials) accounts for a 15% loss in total damage.
I agree, this is much more sizable a loss for 2H Arms Warriors, maybe in your case will cost you 8% of your damage which is sizable. (And I had not seen your post yet when I posted). But in this thread we've had other classes claiming 10% nerfs as well and they have a much smaller yellow attack to white attack ratio.
Because of those attacks 2/3rd are yellow and do not generate rage 14.4/3 = 4.8
1.6 is indeed a very substantial number when compared to 4.8
There are ways of fixing that without the use of Windfury.
Also, melee should top the meters on almost every encounter. Just because a mob has an attack that hits melee does not mean the fight is anti-melee. If a guilds rogues aren't coming out on top(with the other melee classes not far behind) basically every encounter, I guarantee they're doing something wrong.
Are you doing everything you can for tank threat before giving him windfury though? We're usualyl short on shamans and even if we have them they don't go in the tank's group and the MT does good threat as long as someone does TC and demo shout for him, everyone are salved, and well don't start attacking before he has aggro...
We hardly ever have a shaman in the tank group, except for Gurtogg, RoS phase 3 and Void Reaver. There are no threat issues, even when doing Demo and TC myself. I'm sure those 3 are very doable without a shaman, it just made the fight easier.
Yeah, honestly, if your tank needs WF to hold aggro while tanking, you need a better tank (or you need to educate your tank on proper TPS cycles). WF is for offtank threat. Warriors absolutely do need WF for extra rage if you want them to generate reasonable TPS on a mob that isn't actually hitting them, but that's a whole different scenario.
We have a new app Enhance shaman along tonight, and I'm having a heck of a time convincing him to put down WF totem for us.
Current group makeup is Sham/Rog/Rog/Rog/Druid, and so he wants to drop GOA bc he and the Druid don't get any use out of it.
"WF totem is crap" is the quote from him. Unfortunately I don't know what to tell him anymore other than "use it anyways bc we say so" bc the hotfix has kinda screwed things up.
Would it still be worthwhile to use WF over GOA in that case? Or would we need a War in the group instead of Druid to make it worthwhile? He was also wanting to drop Flametongue totem as well -_-;;
We have a new app Enhance shaman along tonight, and I'm having a heck of a time convincing him to put down WF totem for us.
Current group makeup is Sham/Rog/Rog/Rog/Druid, and so he wants to drop GOA bc he and the Druid don't get any use out of it.
"WF totem is crap" is the quote from him. Unfortunately I don't know what to tell him anymore other than "use it anyways bc we say so" bc the hotfix has kinda screwed things up.
Would it still be worthwhile to use WF over GOA in that case? Or would we need a War in the group instead of Druid to make it worthwhile? He was also wanting to drop Flametongue totem as well -_-;;
08/11/07, 12:41 PM
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