You might want to try reading time stamps next time you reply to things, the post you quote of mine was from at least a day prior to Blizz releasing info on why the hotfix went through, and was on page 6 of a 13 page thread. Way to go.
Do you know where this response was? I'd like to see it.
WoW BlueTracker: Windfury Totem Nerf Necessary This is actually a "follow up" post but its the same info, the original explanation post had some issues and keeps vanishing from the forums.
You guys do realize that the WF nerf was planned since Naxx? It was announced and the forums exploded due to BOM > WF, so they reversed it. Now that both classes have Paladins they can go ahead and put in the nerf.
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I've been following this thread fairly closely, but still haven't seen the answer to the question I'm looking for. I finally had to register just so I could ask.
With this change to WF Totem, which is better for Rogues: WF or GoA?
It's no contest that WF is still better for Warriors, because they just don't get as much out of GoA. But a Rogue is getting significant AP and reasonable crit from a GoA totem, with this nerf to WF, are they better of to apply poisons, and then get GoA?
Also, if WF is still better, by how much? Does the benefit for one Rogue still outweigh the benefit of GoA for the Enhancement Shaman dropping the totem. How many Rogues does it take until WF does outweigh GoA?
While I know plenty about playing a Shaman, I nkow next to nothing about playing a Rogue.
Hope you guys can help.
Elemental Shaman: You're OOM. Enhancement Shaman: So are you.
Reference my post on the last page, number 316. In summary, for combat rogues, Windfury still trumps GoA+Instant Poison by a huge margin. In my current gear and with standard raid buffs (I run in a melee group with a feral druid, enhance shaman, fury warrior, and two rogues), it's at least 40-50 DPS better. GoA's effects still won't scale regardless of changes to Windfury, so unless they nerf Windfury into oblivion, GoA will still be crap for combat rogues.
I've been following this thread fairly closely, but still haven't seen the answer to the question I'm looking for. I finally had to register just so I could ask.
With this change to WF Totem, which is better for Rogues: WF or GoA?
It's no contest that WF is still better for Warriors, because they just don't get as much out of GoA.
WF is still far better for rogues. The vast majority of a rogues WF procs are from white dmg swings. As for warriors, for whom the majority of WF procs came from instants, the change brings FT+GoA much closer to WF and in all likelyhood for warriors with lower tier gear ( AP<2K, crit <25% in raid situations) FT+GoA is more added DPS.
WF is still far better for rogues. The vast majority of a rogues WF procs are from white dmg swings. As for warriors, for whom the majority of WF procs came from instants, the change brings FT+GoA much closer to WF and in all likelyhood for warriors with lower tier gear ( AP<2K, crit <25% in raid situations) FT+GoA is more added DPS.
I got different results than this, which I posted earlier. When I ran the numbers it looked like a combat sword rogue would have a slight preference for WF, but that the difference was less than 1% DPS.
Frankly, I'm perfectly fine with them nerfing WF totem IFF they improve the other totems so that there really was an option between GoA/WF/etc. Previously WF was a 10, and the rest were 4s or 5s - if they were all 7s, the game would be a lot better. Shaman in a 3 rogue, 1 warrior group? Windfury. Shaman in a 1 warrior, 1 druid, 1 rogue, 1 hunter group? GoA.
The fact that WF is still so powerful that 2 people in the group not getting it is still higher raid DPS is kinda broken - but WF's taken enough beatings, it's about time for a GoA buff. :P
Edit to add: I'm seeing about a 30-35 dps drop from WF + DP Off to GoA + DP MH + IP Off, at my gear level - it'll take a bit before the new numbers come out for warriors, but once we know that (and of course, how much DPS shaman/druid/hunters tend to gain from GoA), we can find the new "when do I drop what totem" line.
I got different results than this, which I posted earlier. When I ran the numbers it looked like a combat sword rogue would have a slight preference for WF, but that the difference was less than 1% DPS.
According to your post, your results were based on a "guess" given the proportions of rogue damage that come from yellow versus white. I assure you that your "guess" is not accurate at all. Here's the napkin math I did to figure out the difference:
Originally Posted by Vulajin
Conceptually, after the nerf, I would expect swords and daggers to do almost identical bonus damage with Windfury. Windfury attacks are non-normalized, but they also proc at a rate proportional to your swing time, which means that no matter what speed your main hand is, the procs will average out the same extra DPS (this works the same for shaman Windfury Weapon too). The difference is between sword spec and dagger spec.
Since I have no idea how sword spec was modeled in that article you linked, here's a quick analysis of my own, assuming raid-buffed stats of 3000 AP, 30% crit, and full hit, and the weapons are:
Now here's the question of the day: how does Grace of Air stack up against Windfury after the nerf? Having Grace of Air instead of Windfury is an additional 92 AP and 2.3% crit. Also, you can use Instant Poison VII (20% chance on hit for 170 damage) on your main hand weapon.
MH DPS increase from AP = (92 / 14) * 1.2105 = 7.95
MH sword spec procs DPS increase from AP = (92 / 14) * 0.95 * 0.05 * 1.2105 = 0.378
OH DPS increase from AP = (92 / 14) * 1.2105 = 7.95
OH swings per second = 1 / 1.5 = 0.667
OH sword spec procs per second = 0.667 * 0.95 * 0.05 = 0.0317
Sword spec proc bonus damage from AP = 92 / 14 * 2.7 * 1.2105 = 21
OH sword spec procs DPS increase from AP = 0.680
Total white DPS increase = 9.01
MH swings per second = 1 / 2.7 = 0.370
MH IP procs per second = 0.370 * 0.95 * 0.20 = 0.070
MH IP DPS = 11.96
SS per second = 1 / 4 = 0.250
SS bonus damage from AP = 92 / 14 * 2.4 * 1.2105 = 19
SS DPS increase from AP = 4.77
SS IP procs per second = 0.250 * 0.95 * 0.20 = 0.048
SS IP DPS = 8.08
I think that's enough, I'm not going to bother repeating the calculation for daggers, because it's pretty clear how worthless Grace of Air is. But just in case there was any doubt, here it is, spelled out pretty clearly.
Vulajin, your GoA math figures the increased crit from bonus agi into the rogue's stats, but you forgot to figure critting 2.3% more into the total benefit. You've calculated the DPS increase of 92 AP + instant poison, assuming your crit were 2.3% higher because of some other buff.
Also, my guess was based on some quick and dirty math using numbers generated by the rogue DPS spreadsheet, which did look fairly suspect I'll admit. I'm not sure how to interpret the "other damage" entry, so I probably overlooked some white damage somewhere.
Vulajin, your GoA math figures the increased crit from bonus agi into the rogue's stats, but you forgot to figure critting 2.3% more into the total benefit. You've calculated the DPS increase of 92 AP + instant poison, assuming your crit were 2.3% higher because of some other buff.
Also, my guess was based on some quick and dirty math using numbers generated by the rogue DPS spreadsheet, which did look fairly suspect I'll admit. I'm not sure how to interpret the "other damage" entry, so I probably overlooked some white damage somewhere.
Oops! You are correct, I only calculated the effect of the 2.3% crit on the AP bonus, I forgot to calculate it for your existing attacks. One second and I'll post updated calculations.
---
Okay, here they are. First, the original attack table before GoA:
If you take the poison calcs from above and add them in, it comes out to about 60 dps. In short, Windfury is brought somewhat close to Grace of Air. A rogue would obviously still prefer Windfury over Grace of Air, but this may make it somewhat more advantageous to use Grace of Air in a more "balanced" group (as opposed to, say, enhance shaman+fury/fury/fury+feral).
(edit) Note: the effects of haste effects are nearly equal across both totems. 100% of the effects of Windfury will scale directly with haste (since the frequency of Windfury procs is dependent on the speed of your main hand attacks). On the other hand, most of Grace of Air scales directly with haste; however, the frequency of Sinister Strikes is dependent largely on your base energy regeneration, and so scales slightly below haste effects.
Windfury lacks benefit to both hunters and feral druids, which has already been previously stated. My guild runs with 2 rogues tops (often one), no fury warriors, 2-3 hunters, and 1, rarely 2 feral druids. I'm guessing GoA would now undoubtedly be the better option for a group with the 1 rogue, 2 hunters, and feral druid?
Windfury lacks benefit to both hunters and feral druids, which has already been previously stated. My guild runs with 2 rogues tops (often one), no fury warriors, 2-3 hunters, and 1, rarely 2 feral druids. I'm guessing GoA would now undoubtedly be the better option for a group with the 1 rogue, 2 hunters, and feral druid?
GoA would have *always* been the better option for that group, even before the change.
I find the fact they hotfixed it pretty interesting considering they have a current and active PTR where they could have got feedback on the changes and see if it had the impact they intended.
It just seems a little backhanded to suddenly change something without a patch note a mechanic which has been the same for 30 months, sure they intended to change it but when they realised this fact they should have made it into a patch.
If windfury totem was doing excessive damage than normal and lets say generating 2 attacks instead of 1 that would be a hotfixable issue, but something which the totem has done pretty much forever is not something which should be under the "hotfix" umbrella.
I totally agree. But what I'm afraid the case to be is that this hotfix is not applied to PTR's.
What really worries me as a Raid Leader, is that I usually don't mind having my DPS warrior in either Fury or arms spec considering he's good at both and his 4% increased damage buff compensates for the loss of his own damage compared to fury build, but does that mean Arms is no longer viable as an equal DPS to fury in raids? I've read that the damage of those people compared to before has went down by a lot, so should I state that MS is not longer welcomed in my raids?
Another thing regarding Warriors in Arena, would this mean that giving casters Wrath of Air instead of giving the lonely warrior WF better?
but I can very safely tell you that 2h builds are now crap because of this.
Well, we now have definitive proof. *cough*
Originally Posted by Dey
does that mean Arms is no longer viable as an equal DPS to fury in raids? I've read that the damage of those people compared to before has went down by a lot, so should I state that MS is not longer welcomed in my raids?
Damage is lower, especially for those with used spamstring to proc WF. But overall, melee damage seems a bit lower so you'll have to use your best judgment and tailor a raid to your guild's strengths. Heavy melee groups still benefit from the Blood Frenzy debuff and with imp thunderclap, 2/5 in imp Demo and 4-5/5 in Commanding Shout, an Arms warrior can still be a benefit to a raid.
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Granted, that's overall DPS, but my roles pre and post nerfs were identical and one or two different attacks over the course of a fight aren't going to drastically throw off overall DPS.
Using Lurker Below as an example for this case shows that BF/MS just isn't viable any longer. On Gorefiend with the same raid makeup Blood Frenzy added about 250 raid DPS and the overall DPS loss just from the WF nerf is quite a bit higher than that.
The only "raid utility" loss I took going from a gimped 2h build to dw-fury was losing Imp Demo, but even then it isn't really a big loss to pick it up again.
I can't supply any more screenshots of me raiding as 33/28 as IMO, and the opinion of my guild, it's a waste of a raid spot. Hopefully some people who stuck it out can post some more in-depth informaiton.
Using Lurker Below as an example for this case shows that BF/MS just isn't viable any longer. On Gorefiend with the same raid makeup Blood Frenzy added about 250 raid DPS and the overall DPS loss just from the WF nerf is quite a bit higher than that.
The question isnt if you lost more dps than what is added by blood frenzy. The question is if the damage blood frenzy adds to the raid makes up for the damage disparity between nerfed 33/28 and DW fury.
The question isnt if you lost more dps than what is added by blood frenzy. The question is if the damage blood frenzy adds to the raid makes up for the damage disparity between nerfed 33/28 and DW fury.
That has always been the question even before this nerf. And it's always been based on whether or not the physical damage dealers that your guild raids with are heavy/strong or light. Too many people jumped on the "DnT, Nihilum etc used BF so it's the best just because" bandwagon. They never really thought to ask why.
I can see a noticeable difference with this change, but it's mostly just less (over) full rage bar spikes that Hamstring was causing. I just use Hamstring slightly less than before. I am still using it, but not as liberally, and the actual DPS/damage done seems to be extremely close to where it was before. I know Hamstring is still beneficial for Flurry, Mongoose and Trinket procs, but can no longer proc Windfury while Heroic can. Hamstring is also even worse damage per threat now than ever before thanks to the huge damage loss.
In case anyone wants some definitive numbers to play around with, here's some results from last week and this week from our melee on Morogrim Tidewalker (the best test available to us, given that he's the only truly static target in SSC).
Group was: enh shaman, fury warrior, rogue x2 (last spot was rogue/warrior depending on week). Note that the fights differed in length by just over a minute from last week to this week (fight was shorter by 1:06, we brought a lot more physical dps).
There was no change in gear for either of these people from week to week; both remained static in gear and spec and enchants. The warrior knew about the WF nerf and pushed the HS more often, which prevented him from losing as many WF procs, and he took definite advantage of the lack of graves to push his dps *up* despite the nerf.
Thought this might be more useful than "I definitely know my dps went down" or "BAH, NERF".
I guess Tidewalker is good for comparing a Warrior and a Rogue simultaneously, but for just "Warrior" DPS, I prefer to use Karathress as the example. I always dominate that fight, but part of it has to do with Rogues losing CP when targeting a totem as well as me being able to Cleave two mobs and WW three. Even with the random Hurricane, I just lose much more DPS on Tidewalker due to graves, as well as being the last to get healed. Karathress is pretty much the only fight in SSC that I am always hitting something barring freezes. Even Magtheridon or Void Reaver would be a pretty good guage as well for general melee.
Anyway yeah, the change doesn't really affect Rogues and DW Fury a lot, but I think most already realized that would be the case. It absolutely crushes 2h specs though.
If you take the poison calcs from above and add them in, it comes out to about 60 dps. In short, Windfury is brought somewhat close to Grace of Air.
Another factor - armor reduction. All WF bonus damage is affected by this. The DPS from the extra AP/crit from GoA will be reduced by armor, but the poison benefit from allowing MH IP won't be reduced by armor.
08/13/07, 11:49 AM
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