Another factor - armor reduction. All WF bonus damage is affected by this. The DPS from the extra AP/crit from GoA will be reduced by armor, but the poison benefit from allowing MH IP won't be reduced by armor.
More procs from dragonspine/mongoose/RPV/etc also affect it, Aldriana recently released 0.7.x of his gear spreadsheet, he might have changed the WF proc so you might want to check that out as it should factor most things.
Another factor - armor reduction. All WF bonus damage is affected by this. The DPS from the extra AP/crit from GoA will be reduced by armor, but the poison benefit from allowing MH IP won't be reduced by armor.
Since my calculations were, as indicated, "napkin math," I neglected quite a few factors, such as Lethality, which would raise the contribution of Grace of Air very slightly higher. However, Gogge rightly points out that Windfury provides 20% more chances for main hand procs, especially Dragonspine Trophy (when will they realize how massively overpowered this trinket is?).
Granted, that's overall DPS, but my roles pre and post nerfs were identical and one or two different attacks over the course of a fight aren't going to drastically throw off overall DPS.
Using Lurker Below as an example for this case shows that BF/MS just isn't viable any longer. On Gorefiend with the same raid makeup Blood Frenzy added about 250 raid DPS and the overall DPS loss just from the WF nerf is quite a bit higher than that.
The only "raid utility" loss I took going from a gimped 2h build to dw-fury was losing Imp Demo, but even then it isn't really a big loss to pick it up again.
I can't supply any more screenshots of me raiding as 33/28 as IMO, and the opinion of my guild, it's a waste of a raid spot. Hopefully some people who stuck it out can post some more in-depth informaiton.
2h warrior dps is still fairly respectable, granted I didn't get to play my warrior much this past week following the windfury change, but I still feel confident that you can still achieve 1k+ dps fairly easily with the right cycles. If you think you lost 250+ dps from the windfury nerf, you are kidding yourself however.
The only WWS I got last week was of Archimonde, which is an all around random fight for comparing damage. Wow Web Stats Take it how you will, no strength of earth, and air bursted 4 times that weren't intercepted back in, but with bloodlust rotation on the melee so it's kind of a wash. Still shows relative positioning however.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, it's not really a valid comparison due to berzerker rage, but still respectable damage nonetheless, certainly justifying of a raid spot.
2h warrior dps is still fairly respectable, granted I didn't get to play my warrior much this past week following the windfury change, but I still feel confident that you can still achieve 1k+ dps fairly easily with the right cycles. If you think you lost 250+ dps from the windfury nerf, you are kidding yourself however.
The only WWS I got last week was of Archimonde, which is an all around random fight for comparing damage. Wow Web Stats Take it how you will, no strength of earth, and air bursted 4 times that weren't intercepted back in, but with bloodlust rotation on the melee so it's kind of a wash. Still shows relative positioning however.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, it's not really a valid comparison due to berzerker rage, but still respectable damage nonetheless, certainly justifying of a raid spot.
Definitely didn't lose 250 DPS from the loss of windfury procs. I lost 250 DPS from the fact that I'm rage starved 100% of the time.
I'll see if I can dig up some other WWS and edit them into here, but from everything I've seen 200-250 DPS loss is pretty average.
Granted I've only done Archimonde once (95% wipe ftw) 971 DPS honestly doesn't seem all that great, especially when you've got a rogue doing 500+ DPS more than you in 1st place. Unless you're looking at a fight ala Gorefiend where you can actually sustain your DPS the entire time I just don't see it as being a remotely good comparison as to what can be done.
but it looks like he is still hitting hard. If you add the 4% physical damage of the raid to his own, even post nerf it is still a good choice to have on the raid.
Yeah, with BF it's still a decent choice, my issue is just that because of the nerf other specs can overtake the potential DPS of 33/28 with BF included.
Personally I feel dps warriors should be moderately rage limited on fights where they aren't taking any incoming damage, and I thought that was the design decision behind having rage in the first place. Now clearly that isn't really the case for fury warriors, so there rage generation / dps should be looked at.
Looking at those WWS, in the second attempt it looks like you had enough rage to MS every time it was up, just not enough to always use your rage dump. Although there is something a bit odd in that damage meter. To my count there's more global cooldown uses in the second one than the first one despite the fight being 15 or so seconds shorter. Also I notice that there were 4 attacks that missed in the second meter, and about half the number of WF and sword spec procs (15 vs 33).
Now clearly that isn't really the case for fury warriors, so there rage generation / dps should be looked at.
Are you suggesting that somehow DW is now "broken" compared to a 2h build and should be "fixed" so that it does the same damage for stricter gear requirements? Also, "being able" to MS each time it's up is hardly gratifying for a 2h build. It's actually disheartening.
Well this is all kind of beside the point, in the wrong thread and speaking in quite general terms.
I don't think dps warriors (and by extension bear druids doing dps), should in effect have tanking-like infinite rage on fights where there is no real incoming damage. Precisely what that means is a bit up to intepretation, they probably should have enough rage to hit the big specials every cooldown, but been able to go all out all the time seems to remove the point of having a rage bar.
As for fury vs arms, I don't really care, but I'd like to see a place for the classic 2H MS warrior in the raid.
As for warrior dps vs other melee dps, rogues should definitely be on top, as they provide very little in the way of utility or buffs to other classes (or give em some of that). With TBC, DPS warriors provide plenty of utility and buffs to other classes. Thus they should probably be doing the sort of dps that the other melee hybrids provide.
Anyway back to WF. The haphazard nature of the nerf aside I think it's a good thing. Low damage spammable attacks should not be proccing WF. More of a case could be made for attacks that do weapon damage (or more), especially for those that have a cooldown, however given the flow on effects (more rage, procs, etc) it's still could lead to potential super-scaling. I think WF should still exist, should still scale better than any other buff, I just don't thing it should make or break the melee dps group, and force the composition to such class stacking extremes as it at least used to.
Windfury: Each main hand swing has a 20% chance of proccing WF, dealing a normal white swing + 525AP (w/ blue totem)
Average main hand swing: 2548 * 2.4 / 14 = 436.8 AP bonus. Swing range (601.8 - 744.Cool
Average windfury sing: 526.8 AP bonus. Swing range (691.8 - 834.Cool 763.3 average
I'll use my Loading... Mag kill data and see how theorycrafting stands up to WWS. My DPS time in this fight was 9min 57sec (597sec).
Spiteblade w/ SnD: 2.076spd or 0.481 swings per second. Specials add 0.25, sword spec adds 0.05, but both of these were removed in the nerf. I'll calculate old and new just to prove the point. Hourglass, BF, BL, and haste pots would all drop this and add to WF, but we have enough complexity already.
Alright, just using the tooltips and damage codes this is what WF would give on average without a built in cooldown:
Old Way New Way
Swings per second: 0.781 0.481
Swings in 597sec: 466.27 287.157
20% procs: 93.25 57.43
WF damage: 71,117dmg 43,836dmg
WF crit dmg: 22,834dmg 12,980dmg
WF DPS: 153.37DPS 95.17DPS
zomg WF is god!!! er, no, it's not.
Now look at the WWS stats from Magtheridon. I had 47 procs, Barmbul had 43, Drendith had 35. On Void Reaver, a 7min fight where we park and DPS, Barmbul had 44, Drendith had 40. These numbers are half the values the buff claims we should get. There is clearly a cooldown, or something else that reduces the rate of windfury below 20% of all main hand swings, or likely even all white main hand swings.
With 47 procs in 597 seconds, given the AP and crit buffs above, I gain 77.89DPS. If those were evenly spaced out, they would be every 12 seconds.
The other factor against Windfury is the fact that it's physical. Any armor mitigation affects WF too, so even with 47 procs, I wouldn't get 77.89DPS. I don't have a reliable way of figuring out the mitigation against Magtheridon. I can figure it out later using Colin's Windfury damage though.
So this is why we don't listen 100% to theorycrafters. Put the numbers in to practice and see what they say. There is clearly something that prevents the tooltip of Windfury from being accurate. It costs me half the possible swings.
The benefit of GoA and crit stones or Instant Poison is around 58DPS for a combat swords rogue. WF on Mag probably gave me close to that, maybe a little higher. This was before the nerf too, so with any decrease in procs, that'd make GoA/poisons better.
Here is my guilds rogue leader's view on WF he believes there is a internal cooldown
...
Spiteblade w/ SnD: 2.076spd or 0.481 swings per second. Specials add 0.25, sword spec adds 0.05, but both of these were removed in the nerf. I'll calculate old and new just to prove the point. Hourglass, BF, BL, and haste pots would all drop this and add to WF, but we have enough complexity already.
Alright, just using the tooltips and damage codes this is what WF would give on average without a built in cooldown:
Old Way New Way
Swings per second: 0.781 0.481
Swings in 597sec: 466.27 287.157
20% procs: 93.25 57.43
WF damage: 71,117dmg 43,836dmg
WF crit dmg: 22,834dmg 12,980dmg
WF DPS: 153.37DPS 95.17DPS
zomg WF is god!!! er, no, it's not.
Now look at the WWS stats from Magtheridon. I had 47 procs, Barmbul had 43, Drendith had 35. On Void Reaver, a 7min fight where we park and DPS, Barmbul had 44, Drendith had 40. These numbers are half the values the buff claims we should get. There is clearly a cooldown, or something else that reduces the rate of windfury below 20% of all main hand swings, or likely even all white main hand swings.
...
So this is why we don't listen 100% to theorycrafters. Put the numbers in to practice and see what they say. There is clearly something that prevents the tooltip of Windfury from being accurate. It costs me half the possible swings.
Taking a few seconds to browse your combat log would demonstrate that there isn't an internal cooldown of Windfury, at least not of any appreciable amount.
03:21'12.908 Drendith gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack
03:21'13.007 Drendith gains Windfury Attack
03:21'14.944 Drendith gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack
03:21'15.132 Drendith gains Windfury Attack
...
03:23'48.140 Drendith gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack
03:23'48.429 Drendith gains Windfury Attack
03:23'50.299 Drendith gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack
03:23'50.491 Drendith gains Windfury Attack
03:23'52.319 Drendith gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack
03:23'52.397 Drendith gains Windfury Attack
It's an interesting observation, but the cooldown theory is demonstrably false, unless it's under two seconds... in which case it has an extremely minor impact given your gears and specs (see: Zero impact). The proc rate may well be wrong, but it's not due to some cooldown factor.
Looking at that WWS, the Windfury Procrate is exactly 20%:
total swings: 401(hit)+222(crit)+101(miss)=724
minus 48 windfury (or 47?) = 676
Ratio MH:OH attacks 1:1.8, so 241 MH and 435 OH swings.
20% of 241: 48
Everything looks fine to me. I ignored swordspec and misses now (those can't proc windfury, can they?), but subtracting those swings would result in even more than 20% windfury attacks.
EDIT to include the response below for a bit more exact math (and I just realized that I don't know if windfury and swordspec have the dualwield tohit penalty or not, I'll assume those 13.9% are distributed evenly over all attacks)
total swings: 724
minus 48 windfury: 676
minus 26 swordspec: 650
minus 13.9% miss: 560
Ratio MH:OH 1:1.8, so 200 connecting MH swings
20% of 200: 40, the 48 windfury attacks are 24%
Unless someone can point out an obvious fault in my math, I fail to see how one would use that parse to argue for getting too few windfury attacks.
Last edited by Silana : 08/17/07 at 7:34 AM.
Reason: more math
As for warrior dps vs other melee dps, rogues should definitely be on top, as they provide very little in the way of utility or buffs to other classes (or give em some of that). With TBC, DPS warriors provide plenty of utility and buffs to other classes. Thus they should probably be doing the sort of dps that the other melee hybrids provide.
At the risk of total derailment, I need to reply to this. Compared to an equally geared Enhancement Shaman, we are doing similar raid DPS. Their personal DPS in conjunction with the gains Windfury, SoE, UR and Bloodlust is giving to the group puts them on par, if not ahead of Rogues. That's quite a lot for a class that can pick from one of three roles (healer, melee DPS, caster DPS). Warriors really only have two "roles" in raids; either tanking or doing DPS. Either can debuff. Now if you are considering Druids and Paladins into the "melee hybrid" equation, then I really don't buy it. Not because I don't see them as melee DPS (because they are), but because of the other utility as well as an entire additional role they can play. I do understand where you are coming from with the rage bar issue, but I am not at a point where I have the ability to Heroic on every swing, while hitting WW/BT every cooldown and using hamstring in between factoring in dodges, misses, glances and occasionally parries when there is no source of incoming damage.
I agree that Rogues should "be on top", but it seems to me that except for the super elite geared they really aren't...ever even now for overall raid contribution, not just what the damage meter shows. The biggest asset a Rogue has is the ability to put out extremely high damage with a considerably less threat ceiling.
So yeah, back on topic: WF is nerfed, but it's still the best totem for Warriors. I'd say it's also still the best totem for Rogues in most cases too, but that's just an assumption with no real evidence to back it up.
Where the hell did your rogue get those numbers, those are stupidly wrong. As the two posted above, you're seeing the precise rate that you should from windfury in that WWS parse. Windfury is still king for warriors as long as they adjust their cycles a little to account for the lack of procs on instants.
Im an enh shaman (have been since i turned 60 on skullcrusher years ago), and seeing as this place has turned into a sort of interweb enhancement bible, theres really no better place to ask this. Especially as I can't seem to find a definitive answer anywhere else, and i'm not sure if enh vol1 is updated for the wf totem nerf.
Generally in our raids we have 2 combat rogues, never more and rarely less. Sometimes 1 fury warrior. Melee dps groups are one of several combinations:
To date, I have been dropping wf in all of those party make-ups, twisting on tank&spanks, just wf on the mobile fights. What has changed now in that regard? The old ez-reference method of figuring this out was #warriors*2+#rogues+#retadins =>2 drop wf. I would assume this has changed some, but I would appreciate an answer and (if any exists) some data of sorts.
It seems obvious to me that wf would benefit the rogues and warrior more, but is it THAT much of a gap that wf is always if not nearly always better for the group as a whole? If anyone knows, it would be great to see which air totem would be best for each group make-up (1,2,3).
If you can twist WF+Agi totem, you should obviously always do so (unless the other guys in your group get very little out of agi totem... 4 warriors? 3 warriors and a ret pala?!)
So let's assume that it's a fight where you have to move around and can only drop one air totem. In that case, the only one in that list that is even remotely debatable is #3. I'm not sure of the numbers in that case either, but I don't even need to do the math to be sure that #1 and #2 is best served with WF totem.
I've got more questions as well, sort of a 2 in 1 question. Other than the previous ones...
Imp Weapon Totems: Worth it now for an additional 133ap for talent points post wf hot-nerf?
Totem Twisting: WF totem Rank 1 or 2 with rank3 goa. As far as dps addition goes i'm under the impression wf totem is mostly about the extra attack.
I THINK the following is true:
Talented rank 5 = +41 dps to an extra attack
Talented rank 2 = +21 dps to an extra attack
Or if the talents aren't really worth it anymore:
Rank 5 = +31 dps to an extra attack
Rank 2 = +16 dps to an extra attack
-------------------------------------------------------------
So if its still worth it to spec in weapon totems (as opposed to the talent points being better spent elsewhere, consider the probable changes in 2.3 as well) ? If it is or is not, in twist sequences is it really worth the mana to use rank 5 over rank 2? It doesnt' seem like a large difference to me, and if you're a twister can save you a couple thousand mana per minute.
Especially considering imp weapon totems is really only about 1 buff despite the fact it improves 2, and that 1 buff is now nerfed and the 2 points only increase the dps of a weapon by 10 for one attack on max rank. Even less of an improvement on lesser ranks.
I'll see if I can dig up some other WWS and edit them into here, but from everything I've seen 200-250 DPS loss is pretty average.
Did you actually look at those WWS? The one with you doing lower dps you use *more* Mortal Strikes, *more* Slams, *more*whirlwinds.. For someone who is now "rage starved" it's very odd you can perform more specials in the same time frame (pre nerf was 4min 36 sec, post nerf was 4min 34sec dps time) with crippplingly less rage. The only thing that made the first one significantly better was the execute spam, where you performed 8 in the first one, and only 2 in the second. Which is most likely because in the first one, you used recklessness at the end, in the 2nd one you did not use recklessness at all.
WF nerf is definitely a dps nerf, but heck, these wws almost prove it's inconsequential (due to you performing more specials than you did before the nerf).
08/15/07, 7:18 AM
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