Windfury Totem Change - Page 5

Brissa · 08/10/07, 8:31 AM

I dont think anyone can honestly claim that rogues didnt need to be reigned in a little bit.
But did dps warriors really need a 10%+ nerf in damage output? Looking from the perspective of our raids us warriors arent able to compete with rogues and this will make the gap larger.

panny · 08/10/07, 8:34 AM

Originally Posted by Stigmata

I'm not going to comment on 1 & 2, but where did you get the idea that prot warriors have the best threat gen?

I have always been under the impression from our warriors and druds that a druids pros are threat gen vs no fear breaking ability and shield block.

I know our ferals generate way more threat when MT'ing a mob than our Warriors do and thats not to say our warriors aren't already really good on threat.

Oh, I wasn't under that impresseion at all, our ferals outthreat our prot warriors anyday. I meant the _further_ gap in threat.

Facktotum · 08/10/07, 8:42 AM

Originally Posted by Brissa

I dont think anyone can honestly claim that rogues didnt need to be reigned in a little bit.
But did dps warriors really need a 10%+ nerf in damage output? Looking from the perspective of our raids us warriors arent able to compete with rogues and this will make the gap larger.

What is your point? So rogues can do with the WF nerf and warriors cant?

This nerf will affect any melee class that gained dmg from windfury, its not about rogues needed to be reigned or warriors.

Whatever I am very disappointed at this nerf. It was not necessary and what even pisses me off is these cry babies in pvp and blizzard actually listens to them.

higel · 08/10/07, 8:44 AM

I looked through some WWS parses from a Kara run last Thursday (2nd August). My windfury procrate was pretty consistently 20% of white melee hits + crits. I was puzzled as to why my DPS was that bit lower but didn't give it too much thought and just put it down to tiredness.

It looks like it has been in for over a week now.

Mace · 08/10/07, 8:46 AM

If my (quick) calculations are correct, WF will do around 25-30 TPS less now if used while tanking.
(Removed all instants from chance to proc and left HS and white dmg only)
Shield slam never procced it already, so that leaves you with 4x HS and white damage in a 6.8s skill cycle. (SS, revenge, 2x devastate, 4x HS - with a 1.6s weapon) (counted in 200ms latency)

That brings GOA+FT around equal on TPS. Count in the +dodge from the agility GOA gives..
No more Windfury for tanking I'd guess.

Gokey · 08/10/07, 8:58 AM

I'm pretty sure this "hotfix" has been in for a few days as well.

Our warriors and rogues have been bitching that our shamans windfury totems are "broken" since about Thursday of last week, I'd say.

Maurice2u · 08/10/07, 9:00 AM

Does this also mean that possibly Deadly Poison is back on the menu for rogues? One of the biggest points of contention before this nerf was that WF did not overwrite poison, as such a rogue had to ditch instant poison and hope his shamman kept WF up and he stayed in range. Whenever he wasn't getting the WF buff, he was throwing damage away w/ a non-poison weapon.

Since Blizz (naturally) hasn't made WF overwrite poison as a trade-off to this nerf, how far away now is IP+DP (OH-MH always) from DP+WF*(occassional w/ nerf)? This may get even uglier than our calculations so far when you toss in poison immune mobs and the like. We start using dual-poison again because WF starts being tossed to the back for GoA and then we run into Mr. "no poison damage for you".

Ah well.

Brissa · 08/10/07, 9:08 AM

Originally Posted by Facktotum

What is your point? So rogues can do with the WF nerf and warriors cant?

This nerf will affect any melee class that gained dmg from windfury, its not about rogues needed to be reigned or warriors.

Whatever I am very disappointed at this nerf. It was not necessary and what even pisses me off is these cry babies in pvp and blizzard actually listens to them.

My point is that if they felt certain melee classes were doing to much damage then this is a very heavy handed way to do it as while it does affect rogues it has an even greater impact on warriors (who could perhaps have used a bit of a nerf but no where to this extent).

castille · 08/10/07, 9:09 AM

Originally Posted by Maurice2u

Does this also mean that possibly Deadly Poison is back on the menu for rogues? One of the biggest points of contention before this nerf was that WF did not overwrite poison, as such a rogue had to ditch instant poison and hope his shamman kept WF up and he stayed in range. Whenever he wasn't getting the WF buff, he was throwing damage away w/ a non-poison weapon.

Since Blizz (naturally) hasn't made WF overwrite poison as a trade-off to this nerf, how far away now is IP+DP (OH-MH always) from DP+WF*(occassional w/ nerf)? This may get even uglier than our calculations so far when you toss in poison immune mobs and the like. We start using dual-poison again because WF starts being tossed to the back for GoA and then we run into Mr. "no poison damage for you".

Ah well.

Just because the Sun drops a couple hundred degrees doesn't mean EZBake Ovens can 'out cook' it. It would take a far greater nerf than this to make GoA/IP+DP approach WF/DP numbers.

lav · 08/10/07, 9:11 AM

Has anyone been testing? Last night at least up to around midnight wf was still proccing off yellow attacks for my warrior. Unless my combat log is lying this was either reverted or is broke.

Vohbo · 08/10/07, 9:16 AM

WF adds far, far more than 30 TPS, take my word for it. Flametongue adds about 30 at best and can't always be used. Even without consideration the rage generation, WF adds 40 TPS at least from special attacks only. It also adds more dps on autoattack than Flametongue does.
And trust me, more dodge is really not what I'm waiting for, cause that means even less rage.

Mace · 08/10/07, 9:22 AM

Originally Posted by Vohbo

WF adds far, far more than 30 TPS, take my word for it. Flametongue adds about 30 at best and can't always be used.

I said it would do 25-30 LESS than normal. (all depends on weapons speed ofcourse, but for a 1.6s weapon it was around 70 TPS.)

Flametongue adds around 15 TPS.

Maurice2u · 08/10/07, 9:24 AM

@Castille. I know far as individually for "us" WF will still be more damage, but if GoA starts to be seen as a greater 'raid benefit' due to the change, that was more my drift. Fewer melee DPS (ie: less warriors) combined w/ the reduced benefit of WF to the remaining DPS and the added benefit of GoA to their replacements (GoA helps more classes than WF), it may happen in some raids, no?

Danath · 08/10/07, 9:25 AM

Originally Posted by lav

Has anyone been testing? Last night at least up to around midnight wf was still proccing off yellow attacks for my warrior. Unless my combat log is lying this was either reverted or is broke.

Yesterday afternoon spamstring still worked on EU servers as well. Hope they reverted it...

Vohbo · 08/10/07, 9:29 AM

Originally Posted by Mace

I said it would do 25-30 LESS than normal. (all depends on weapons speed ofcourse, but for a 1.6s weapon it was around 70 TPS.)

Flametongue adds around 15 TPS.

Yes and that just isn't accurate. If I have to do 6 instant attacks to gain one landing WF attack, that means already a 40 TPS increase without counting additional rage.

lav · 08/10/07, 9:31 AM

Originally Posted by Danath

Yesterday afternoon spamstring still worked on EU servers as well. Hope they reverted it...

I have been saying this in a few threads and none of the warriors or shamans have even tested it. They just post up to continue the drama over a change that looks like it got reverted.

Stigmata · 08/10/07, 9:38 AM

Originally Posted by lav

I have been saying this in a few threads and none of the warriors or shamans have even tested it. They just post up to continue the drama over a change that looks like it got reverted.

Or maybe it was never put in on the european servers.

soverpowerd · 08/10/07, 9:38 AM

Originally Posted by lav

I have been saying this in a few threads and none of the warriors or shamans have even tested it. They just post up to continue the drama over a change that looks like it got reverted.

The change has not been reverted as of last night. (this change lost me about 200 raid dps)

Danath · 08/10/07, 9:39 AM

Originally Posted by Stigmata

Or maybe it was never put in on the european servers.

The very same blue post from Natheara has been copied on the EU forums as well. No, it should be there...Either it's broken or it has been reverted.

Malan · 08/10/07, 9:42 AM

The thread that was used to announce the change was locked sometime last night on the US forum. Probably from all the whining and flaming going on in it, but who knows.

Brissa · 08/10/07, 9:44 AM

The hotfix is definitely active.

Just 5 minutes ago I tested this by spamming hamstring on mobs in terrokar forest with a shaman providing a WF totem. I checked my combat log for each WF procc and saw if it corresponded with a hamstring or a white hit.

Out of 40 hamstrings not a single one procced WF.
The probability of this happening is 0.8^40 = 1.3*10^-4

• Maestroquark · 08/10/07, 9:52 AM

Since it's popped up before ... hotfixes have been funky lately. Stories of Gruul still Hurtful Striking #3 even after a hotfix abounded. The stories pretty much died out after all servers were restarted.

On my realm, at least, this change was live last night.

Maledict · 08/10/07, 9:55 AM

Erm - apart from the big C'thun hotfix, hotifxes have *always* been applied later to the Euro realms. Usually the following night - so I would expect WF to still proc of special attacks today in Europe, and that some point over the next 24 hours it will stop working.

Brissa · 08/10/07, 9:57 AM

Originally Posted by Maledict

Erm - apart from the big C'thun hotfix, hotifxes have *always* been applied later to the Euro realms. Usually the following night - so I would expect WF to still proc of special attacks today in Europe, and that some point over the next 24 hours it will stop working.

If you see my post, it doesnt.

Mace · 08/10/07, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Vohbo

Yes and that just isn't accurate. If I have to do 6 instant attacks to gain one landing WF attack, that means already a 40 TPS increase without counting additional rage.

I didnt count in rage, and only for a 6.8 second cycle. (a non issue anyways when tanking)
You are talking about a 40TPS increase over 9 seconds. (with 1 proc)
I say it WAS around 70TPS, which is 1.75 as much as you get from 1 WF proc. In other words a proc every 5 seconds.
I guess thats pretty fair to say, in your and my terms.

I simply removed the instants from the chance to proc. So instead you have 4 chances on a proc left in those 6.8 seconds instead of the 7 it was.
Hence the threat beeing 25-30 TPS less.

I just used the Threat spreadsheet, and it gives around the same values.