[Warlock] Tier4 2-Piece Bonus

dedmonwakeen · 08/13/07, 12:53 PM

Searching posts here, wowhead, and thottbot give me so much conflicting information..... and the stuff that doesn't conflict is incomplete.

I'm trying to accurately model the Warlock Tier4 2pc bonus.

(1) What proc's it?
(2) What is the proc chance?
(3) Is their a hidden cooldown or can it refresh?

Regarding #1:
- I was told DDs and DoTs proc this..... but looking at some Illhoof fight parses it appears that SoC does not proc?
- The language states "..shadow damage spells..." and not "harmful spells" (like SS Infusion) so does this mean CoS does not proc it?

Regarding #2:
- I see people swearing up and down it is 10% and I see others claiming 5%...... Frustrating.

Regarding #3:
- People seem to agree that there is no internal cooldown and it can refresh.

Crepe · 08/13/07, 1:04 PM

SoC's initial application is the only part that counts as a spellhit (and hence can proc the T4 bonus). The explosions don't count. In a similar vein, none of the ticks of Hellfire or Rain of Fire proc the bonus as well.

I would agree with the lack of an internal cooldown.

I'm curious of your results, as it's hard to decide when to break the T4 bonus for T5 pieces. The question of "upgrade" entirely depends on how much the T4 bonus really is worth it in DPS.

dedmonwakeen · 08/13/07, 1:11 PM

Originally Posted by Crepe

SoC's initial application is the only part that counts as a spellhit (and hence can proc the T4 bonus). The explosions don't count. In a similar vein, none of the ticks of Hellfire or Rain of Fire proc the bonus as well.

I suppose my Warlock friend was just unlucky..... but it didn't proc at all during his Illhoof fight.

I'm curious of your results, as it's hard to decide when to break the T4 bonus for T5 pieces. The question of "upgrade" entirely depends on how much the T4 bonus really is worth it in DPS.

Right now, it appears "too" good which is why I distrust the listed 10% proc chance shown on wowhead.

Suggestive · 08/13/07, 1:24 PM

Pretty sure it doesn't proc of CoS/E. And from a quick sample of 3-4 WWS's, i see it around a 5% proc rate.

Crepe · 08/13/07, 1:39 PM

Yeah, I'm going through my WWS parses and the highest proc chance I'm seeing is 6% proc/cast. This isn't counting applications of CoS/CoE (which I'm usually on and sometimes refresh early to keep my Darkmoon card buff up), so I'm going to say that it isn't 10%.

I'm also tracking the proc/time chance, which seems to vary more, supporting the idea of an internal cooldown. Unfortunately, my data set is small. I'll post it once I finish collating the data.

Crepe · 08/13/07, 1:48 PM

Here's my data from WWS. Sadly, I don't have much more as I just upgraded to T5 shoulders and lost the bonus (we also lost a few WWS logs in the meantime).

Len is the length of the fight in minutes, as measured by WWS DPS time (I know it's not perfect, but it's a good measure of the time I spend casting rather than running away from stuff).
Hit is the number of spells that hit (resists don't matter for procing the bonus).
Shadowflame/flameshadow are the number of times each proced. Total is the combined number of procs.
Proc% is the number of procs divided by the number of hits. PPM is the number of procs divided by the length of the fight.

len         hit         shadowflame flameshadow total       %proc       ppm
9           177         0           5           5           0.03        0.56
8           136         1           4           5           0.04        0.63
6           122         2           5           7           0.06        1.17
5           103         0           3           3           0.03        0.6
8           164         2           8           10          0.06        1.25
6           114         0           3           3           0.03        0.5
14          216         0           6           6           0.03        0.43
9           153         0           9           9           0.06        1
6           116         0           5           5           0.04        0.83

EDIT: I've excluded Tidewalker and Hydross specifically because we use AoE those fights and it's practically impossible to tell how many SoC's were cast by just looking at a WWS parse.

dedmonwakeen · 08/13/07, 1:58 PM

Thanks for the detailed parses. I really appreciate it.

I've changed the simulator to use a 5% proc chance and limit the proc to spells that do actual damage (as opposed to just a debuff).

Thanks!

◊ Silmeria · 08/13/07, 2:19 PM

Really interested to see what the new rating comes out at. Are you going to be updating the trinket lists to reflect the change in its equivalent spell power rating?

dedmonwakeen · 08/13/07, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by Silmeria

Really interested to see what the new rating comes out at. Are you going to be updating the trinket lists to reflect the change in its equivalent spell power rating?

Yes..... but it will take a while. I've changed the way cast_time, latency, and GCD interact:

Before:
player_ready = current_time + MAX( cast_time + latency, GCD )

New:
player_ready = current_time + MAX( cast_time, GCD ) + latency

This requires me to re-run ALL of my simulations. Provided my laptop doesn't burn a hole through my desk it will complete in about 40hrs. (Simulating a quarter of a billion 10 minute fights takes a little while.)

My best guess: The Warlock T4-2PC bonus should end up around 30 +dmg.....

◊ Kyth · 08/13/07, 3:05 PM

Originally Posted by Crepe

I'm also tracking the proc/time chance, which seems to vary more, supporting the idea of an internal cooldown. Unfortunately, my data set is small. I'll post it once I finish collating the data.

There's no cooldown, I've had it proc on top of itself plenty of times (just refreshes the buff duration, doesn't stack.)

tetracycloide · 08/13/07, 3:26 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

My best guess: The Warlock T4-2PC bonus should end up around 30 +dmg.....

Just for reference the other simulators I have seen here for the T4-2pc bonus rate it at about half that for an affliciton spec lock, around 15-17 +dmg. The really sad part is that you can never use the fire portion of the buff since it's shorter than immolate and I don't think it's worth it to change your cast rotation to put immolate up early and loose a tick just for the extra proc damage.

I raided with the helm and gloves for a good while and saw significant DPS gains moving to spellstrike and handwraps of flowing thought, not really suprising I don't think.

I've run the numbers on which two pieces of T4 would be worth using over the best piece of BoP tailoring gear or other drops in the same gear level in an afffliction spec. Before magtheridon with T4 chest tokens the best combo is T4 shoulders (actually a very small upgrade over FSW) and the helm (a significant downgrade from spellstrike). I'm willing to bet that a simulation will show that breaking the spellstrike bonus isn't worth gaining the T4 two piece bonus. The next best option pre magtheridon is to use the T4 gloves over handwraps of flowing thought and my gut tells me that handwraps as so good at this gear level that the T4 bonus will just about make this change break even.

Now, if you include magtheridon's tokens then T4 shoulders + T4 chest with the set bonus factored in is almost certainly a DPS upgrade for an affliction lock (depends on the true value of the proc) and hands down a DPS upgrade for a destruction lock (probably better just on straight up stats without even counting the proc).

I'd just as soon stick with the BoP tailoring shoulders and chest and pass on the tokens so other classes can pick up their sets though since they don't get crafted epics.

Silverstorm · 08/13/07, 4:19 PM

I've continually passed on T4 tokens (unless no one else needs them AT ALL) because I can't see how this bonus would improve over FSW and Spellstrike. Not to mention the +dmg on these pieces is considerably higher than that of T4.

All that said, I would be extremely interested to see the results of this simulator, and also one for Spellstrike. I currently have only the helm, and the Trial Fire Trousers from Opera as my pants (3x +9 dmg, +35 dmg thread). Should I get Spellstrike pants crafted and gemmed/enchanted? Offhand, I can't remember the stat differences, though I know I can use the +hit on Spellstrike Pants.

tetracycloide · 08/13/07, 4:32 PM

It can't improve over spellstrike set bonus or spell strike stats but T4 shoulders are actually an upgrade over FSW shoulders (a very very very small one) just on stats even with lower spell damage. Even though they don't help your DoTs as much as they help shadowbolt +hit, +crit, and +int are still DPS stats that have a value and the stats on T4 shoulders just add up to a little more overall DPS than FSW shoulders. The same goes for T4 robe in a destruction build.

Spellstrike pants would be an upgrade over trial fire in an affliction build even if you didn't get the set bonus. I think this is even more true for a destruction build.

Silverstorm · 08/13/07, 4:42 PM

OK, I think I'll be looking for a Spellstrike pants crafter tonight then.

T4 shoulders vs. FSW shoulders...I might need the stats upgrade after switching to Spellstrike Pants just to maintain stam/int levels. Though in a boss fight, I can usually deal enough damage to recover health equal to a lifetap or two. The hit rating in particular makes up for the lack of spell damage, especially since I'm only at 140 hit rating, and I'd really like to lose the last few points in Suppression.

WTB High King kill with warlock token drop!

◊ Silmeria · 08/13/07, 4:44 PM

I actually had a chance at the T5 shoulders and nabbed those quickly to replace my FSW shoulders. I've been wanting to play with the two-piece T4 bonus, and was intending on using the classic shoulders/chest combo as my experiment, but loot didn't pan out for me, and the T5 shoulders are just great itemization over FSW, point for point.

Now I've waited for everyone in my token group to grab their T4 chest, so I'll be grabbing mine to activate a two piece set bonus. I'm basically following the exact plan Tet laid out, and will be using my T4 gloves to serve as the second piece. I'm not expecting an out-right upgrade, but am hoping the hit rating increase will allow me to let go of my infinite jewel offhand from netherspite, and let me use my soul eater orb once again, which is a very decent shadow damage upgrade for me. We'll see though, luckily everyone in my token group is done with T4 chests, so it's a free experiment =)

I've never been able to get a flowing wrap off Attumen, so I've been hobbling by with a Soul eater gloves from Mag (not a slouch item, just not ideal). Sadly, I'm still working up the money for the spellstrike pants (just blew too much building my blessings deck, oh well, one thing at a time).

What are thoughts on breaking the two-piece spellstrike set to use the cowl off VR out of curiousity? Just got mine, and am still going to make my pants, but very undecided on whether to use the cowl or the spellstrike hood for the two-piece bonus. I see it's a popular choice for most destro warlocks, but I'm still hesitant to break the bonus purely off observing my shadow priest friends using it. I'm mainly affliction these days in our raid just for a little background.

tetracycloide · 08/13/07, 4:54 PM

On breaking spellstrike bonus for [Cowl of the Grand Engineer]:

I would venture an opinon that most of the locks, assuming they're actually running the math in the spreadsheets and simulators, that are dropping spellstrike for this helm are actually not tailors and therefor do not care about breaking the set bonus.

If you are a tailor and you are breaking the set bonus then there's going to be a lot of factors that will change the exact cut off points but hood with bonus to cowl is almost always a downgrade. If you replace the hood and the pants with the cowl + some other item then you can get a DPS boost but only if the pants are good enough. For my gear and spec (affliction) specifically I'd need something at least as good as [Leggings of the Seventh Circle] to even consider it (on a minor side note i'd like to know why more dps cloth doesn't have red and yellow sockets with sexy +dmg socket bonuses).

Considering both the cowl and the leggings are going to be highly desired by pretty much every DPS caster in your raids I'd personally stick with your crafted epics and save the DKP for other slots and/or BT/Hyjal loot.

Cowl is heavier on crit than the hood to matter how you slice it so for a destruction build it might indeed be better to go with spelltrike pants + cowl since +crit is a much stronger stat with ruin.

vyce · 08/13/07, 5:06 PM

I would really be interested in other tailoring warlock's opinions about when to break FSW and Spellstrike.

It seems to me like T4 is not really worth it, and most non-set items that drop will of course cause you to break any set bonuses you might have had.

I guess I'd really like to know what to look forward to. Right now we are just beginning to get Gruul down consistantly and as it is, I'm just there to rack up some DKP and of course help the rest of my guild get gear upgrades.

◊ Silmeria · 08/13/07, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by vyce

I would really be interested in other tailoring warlock's opinions about when to break FSW and Spellstrike.

It seems to me like T4 is not really worth it, and most non-set items that drop will of course cause you to break any set bonuses you might have had.

I guess I'd really like to know what to look forward to. Right now we are just beginning to get Gruul down consistantly and as it is, I'm just there to rack up some DKP and of course help the rest of my guild get gear upgrades.

Breaking FSW shouldn't even be a decision, just upgrade from FSW when you have a piece that's point for point better. The 3-piece bonus is nothing to write home about.

In response to the cowl, that's pretty much my line of logic, glad to see it reaffirmed. Luckily caster loot has been plentiful in my raids, so I've been picking these pieces from the disenchant pile.

Trickykid · 08/13/07, 5:53 PM

I'll be interested to see what the simulator shows, but I've always considered spellstrike bonus as:
92*(1-.95^C)
Where C is number of casts in 10 seconds. For affliction, I used 4.5 (considering about 50% cast time for 2.5s, 50% for 1.5s, rounded down for lag and immolate). For destruction, I use 4 (90% for 2.5s, 10% for 1.5s, rounded down).
Affliction: 19 average spell power
Destruction: 17.1 average spell power.
I take this as a "maximum" average, since this is assuming ideal use of each bonus (namely, constant casting). I would rather take 17.1 spell power than this bonus as destruction, for instance. As such, I consider the Cowl+SS legs as an upgrade to the SS set.

For t4 2pc:
135*(1-.95^C)
Affliction: my C=7.5 (rounded down from 8 -- for lag and immolate), 40.7 average spell power.
Destruction: my C=6 (rounded down from 6.4), 35.8 average spell power.

The increased time length of t4 helps affliction more, since across 15seconds, you'll probably refresh a good portion of your dots.

EDIT: I realize these values aren't 100% accurate, but I'll generally do an upper/lower bound calculation and I haven't had a gear decision where it fell within those boundaries. If it did, I'd make these more accurate.

lithium1189 · 08/13/07, 6:17 PM

If your an affliction warlock, it will usually proc more often then 21.40

Its proc rate is actually pretty good, i usually get 2 or 3 procs between my trinkets.

Silverstorm · 08/13/07, 9:50 PM

Originally Posted by tetracycloide

Spellstrike pants would be an upgrade over trial fire in an affliction build even if you didn't get the set bonus. I think this is even more true for a destruction build.

Ran the numbers on Deelit's sheet....significant DPS ugrade due to +hit/+crit, though I lose ~30 Stam/~30 Int. Just switching the pants in boosted 12 DPS, adding the set bonus (I'm a tailor) according to Trickykid's logic, jumped it up another 15-20 DPS.

The large increase is partly due to reduced Life Tap/Dark Pact because they're more effective, but hey, that's part of DPS!

• frmorrison · 08/13/07, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by tetracycloide

On breaking spellstrike bonus for [Cowl of the Grand Engineer]:

I would venture an opinion that most of the locks, assuming they're actually running the math in the spreadsheets and simulators, that are dropping spell strike for this helm are actually not tailors and therefor do not care about breaking the set bonus.

I broke Spellstrike set bonus for Tier 5 leggings, and put the PvP 12 damage gem in the legs (I have 3 +9 gems in Spellstrike).

I just looked at it at the dps spreadsheet, just the stats of Tier 5 vs Spellstrike legs gains me 2 dps ignoring the ~15 dps of the proc.

So I am losing 13 dps for 36 stamina and 23 int, I am not sure which is better, there is no contest once the set bonus is changed, but now I am unsure.

◊ Kyth · 08/14/07, 12:17 AM

I broke the spellstrike set bonus for leatherworking (drums!) and the T5 legs (which were going to rot if I didn't pick them up. I kid you not, we get *tons* of 'hero' drops and very few others.).

It may be a small dps downgrade, but the drums are very fun on raids (I was getting bored) and it opens up the choice of either 4 pc T5 or the cowl of the grand engineer (the choice will probably depend on whether I get Vashj's robe, since I have mag's gloves and don't really want to downgrade there to T5. Not to mention threat issues from corruption.)

This game is, after all, about fun

. And man those drums have been fun.